KHL Expansion Part VII

[Jussi]

The biggest problem is a fact that they have to finish their season (regular + playoff) before the IIHF WCH starts (so mid/late April). The KHL would need 2-3 more weeks. Even the CHL´s season ends in February, they do not have a room for regular season games, so they have to schedule them for NT breaks.

If the IIHF WCH/the World Cup & the Olympics to be played in February, this scheduling problem would not occur, because the leagues would interrupt a season for 2 weeks in February, but could play in May.

I have not invented nothing new. All was said in the past.


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Fehr talked about 4 year cycle, where Year 2 & Year 4 would be free. Of course, the IIHF could organise WHC in those years. So, you have 4 year cycle with Olympics - IIHF WCH - World Cup - IIHF WCH or European Championship. The point is to have them in February.

European leagues would benefit from this scenario.

Not happening. World Championships are also not moving to February, bad time of the year for fans.

 

[vorky]

What are you talking about? Who is afraid of travelling to Russia? The real reason why they don't like the idea to travel there, is because there is not so much money to be made there. The same reason why NHL does not visit Europe more often.

Just few days ago Suomikiekko.com told us, that Jokerit have lost over 47 million euros, last four years.

I will paraphrase Hakan Loob: "If the CHL wants to be an European competition with all top teams involved, there need to be the KHL in some way."

So, if "there is not so much money to be made there", why does the CHL want to get the KHL into the competition? Does not make sense, at all.

Perhaps, the real reason is that European teams do not have money to travel to Russia? In my opinion, one Russian trip would not ruin an European team, but the Euros can think otherwise.

 

[Exarz]

What are you talking about? Who is afraid of travelling to Russia? The real reason why they don't like the idea to travel there, is because there is not so much money to be made there. The same reason why NHL does not visit Europe more often.

Just few days ago Suomikiekko.com told us, that Jokerit have lost over 47 million euros, last four years.

This is just a rational guess, but I believe only the teams in the western conference would be able to participate in the CHL, if CHL participation was going to happen. Nomad Astana would've not qualified for the CHL if they had won the Continental Cup, since Astana is in the asian part of Kazakhstan and the CHL sees themselves as a pan-european league. I guess the same rule would apply to all the other KHL teams in the same situation (well, a few teams are based in Europe that plays in the eastern conferences, but I believe they would just let western conference teams participate to make it easier). So it would at least be a bit cheaper, but it would still be a bigger cost traveling to Russia than central/northern Europe.

And regarding the huge loss Jokerit has made, the league is planning to change the divisional format and play more divisional games to reduce the travel costs, since it stands for a big part of every team's early loss.

 

[Exarz]

I will paraphrase Hakan Loob: "If the CHL wants to be an European competition with all top teams involved, there need to be the KHL in some way."

So, if "there is not so much money to be made there", why does the CHL want to get the KHL into the competition? Does not make sense, at all.

Perhaps, the real reason is that European teams do not have money to travel to Russia? In my opinion, one Russian trip would not ruin an European team, but the Euros can think otherwise.

To be fair, it seems like most CHL teams aim to break-even on their CHL budget, so traveling to Russia would most likely make it a negative result. However, having KHL participation in the CHL would probably gain more interest from sponsors and thus increase the tournament's revenue sharing.

 

[vorky]

Not happening. World Championships are also not moving to February, bad time of the year for fans.

For further details, please contact Mr. Martin Merk, who wrote the article.

 

[vorky]

To be fair, it seems like most CHL teams aim to break-even on their CHL budget, so traveling to Russia would most likely make it a negative result. However, having KHL participation in the CHL would probably gain more interest from sponsors and thus increase the tournament's revenue sharing.

Agree.

The KHL has said many times - we are ready to cooperate with the CHL if there are benefits for all sides. So, if Euros want the KHL to join (positive for the CHL), but to play only away games in Europe or at final tournament played in Europe (positive for the CHL, negative for the KHL), there is no chance for cooperation. At all.

The KHL is not stupid. They exactly know what is the CHL´s position & how the CHL can develop in the future. Therefore the KHL will cooperate with individual team(s)/league(s) instead of the CHL as a group. If the KHL wants to develop in Europe, the KHL does not need to cooperate with the CHL to reach the goal.

 

[vorky]

This is just a rational guess, but I believe only the teams in the western conference would be able to participate in the CHL, if CHL participation was going to happen. Nomad Astana would've not qualified for the CHL if they had won the Continental Cup, since Astana is in the asian part of Kazakhstan and the CHL sees themselves as a pan-european league. I guess the same rule would apply to all the other KHL teams in the same situation (well, a few teams are based in Europe that plays in the eastern conferences, but I believe they would just let western conference teams participate to make it easier). So it would at least be a bit cheaper, but it would still be a bigger cost traveling to Russia than central/northern Europe.

And regarding the huge loss Jokerit has made, the league is planning to change the divisional format and play more divisional games to reduce the travel costs, since it stands for a big part of every team's early loss.

I get the point. I understand why they chose this direction & where they inspired. But I do not agree with the decision. That is a wrong signal for potential negotiations with the KHL. You know what was one of reasons for non-particiaption of the KHL in the CHL back in 2014 - the Euros did not want Jokerit. Current CHL´s attitude is similar - an discrimination of some KHL clubs because they are in Asia, in Jokerit´s case it was due to being an Finnish side. Not the most clever .... if I wanted to find an example, I would say the same about SAIK or Lulea because they are close to the North Pole. Or a British team, because there is La Manche & Great Britain is not an continental Europe. Btw, the CHL guys are talking about the CHL teams travelling to North America to rival the NHL .... but one game in Russia would be a problem!

 

[Jussi]

I get the point. I understand why they chose this direction & where they inspired. But I do not agree with the decision. That is a wrong signal for potential negotiations with the KHL. You know what was one of reasons for non-particiaption of the KHL in the CHL back in 2014 - the Euros did not want Jokerit. Current CHL´s attitude is similar - an discrimination of some KHL clubs because they are in Asia, in Jokerit´s case it was due to being an Finnish side. Not the most clever .... if I wanted to find an example, I would say the same about SAIK or Lulea because they are close to the North Pole. Or a British team, because there is La Manche & Great Britain is not an continental Europe. Btw, the CHL guys are talking about the CHL teams travelling to North America to rival the NHL .... but one game in Russia would be a problem!

More like HIFK guy Tom Everi blocking it.

 

[vorky]

More like HIFK guy Tom Everi blocking it.

even worse if true. Personal feelings of executives are more important than the thing itself.

 

[Toro2017]

So, if "there is not so much money to be made there", why does the CHL want to get the KHL into the competition? Does not make sense, at all.

Well why KHL wants Jokerit, when it lose money over 10 millions per season? Ofcourse there are also other reasons than just money. But if it were up to me, I would say clear no to KHL in CHL. Last CHL collapsed, because the organizers put to much fate in russian money and when Salavat lost to Zürich, all the promised money went away. Russians made similar magic trick in KHL after season 2013-14. Lev Praha did not understand, that they are not to win the conference final and when they did that, all financial support for next season went away. This may be acceptable to russian sport consumers, but it won't work in Europe. If you would ask anybody in finland, do they belive that Jokerit is allowed to win gagarin cup (If for some reason they would get that far), 99% would probably say no.

 

[vorky]

Well why KHL wants Jokerit, when it lose money over 10 millions per season? Ofcourse there are also other reasons than just money. But if it were up to me, I would say clear no to KHL in CHL. Last CHL collapsed, because the organizers put to much fate in russian money and when Salavat lost to Zürich, all the promised money went away. Russians made similar magic trick in KHL after season 2013-14. Lev Praha did not understand, that they are not to win the conference final and when they did that, all financial support for next season went away. This may be acceptable to russian sport consumers, but it won't work in Europe. If you would ask anybody in finland, do they belive that Jokerit is allowed to win gagarin cup (If for some reason they would get that far), 99% would probably say no.

It is your opinion & you can believe whatever you want.

There were serious financial-political problems in both cases, in 2008/2009 it was the financial crisis & in 2014 it was the Ukrainian crisis. These arguments are more reasonable than those presented by yourself.

 

[Toro2017]

There were serious financial-political problems in both cases, in 2008/2009 it was the financial crisis & in 2014 it was the Ukrainian crisis. These arguments are more reasonable than those presented by yourself.

Those are not good reasons, those are just poor excuses. Same way as "we won't participate in CHL, because Jokerit can not enter". As I said before, these things may be acceptable for russian sport consumers, but not for europeans. And because there seems to be somekind of gap between sporting values, I personally would not want to mix KHL and CHL together. Let them go their separate ways and both enrich global hockey scene, in their own ways. In this case 1+1 would not be 2 and that's why it would probably be better, if they go exist side by side.

 

[vorky]

Those are not good reasons, those are just poor excuses. Same way as "we won't participate in CHL, because Jokerit can not enter". As I said before, these things may be acceptable for russian sport consumers, but not for europeans. And because there seems to be somekind of gap between sporting values, I personally would not want to mix KHL and CHL together. Let them go their separate ways and both enrich global hockey scene, in their own ways. In this case 1+1 would not be 2 and that's why it would probably be better, if they go exist side by side.

If a financial issues are "poor excuses", what is "the CHL 2008 & Lev according to your statement"? A myth?

Jokerit & the CHL - as Jussi said "More like HIFK guy Tom Everi blocking it." So, do you blame the KHL for it? Why should the KHL agree with a scenario if some KHL clubs can not play the CHL because of their location or personal feelings of Everi or whatever? Is that a serious negotiation´s tactic from the CHL´s side? Like, really?

Ad sporting values. Can you elaborate? I have some idea what you are talking about, but still ...

 

[Toro2017]

Jokerit & the CHL - as Jussi said "More like HIFK guy Tom Everi blocking it." So, do you blame the KHL for it? Why should the KHL agree with a scenario if some KHL clubs can not play the CHL because of their location or personal feelings of Everi or whatever? Is that a serious negotiation´s tactic from the CHL´s side? Like, really?

So one user says here that the blame is on that HIFK guy and it becomes 100% fact for you? If the same user would say that KHL is more softpower propaganda than sport competition, would that also become 100% fact for you? As CHL has many shareholders (atleast 26 teams, 6 leagues and IIHF) it seems highly unlikely that only one shareholder could stop something on his own. I mean if every other shareholders want to go ahead. That kind of business might work somewhere else, but it is not the way business is done here in Europe.

 

[vorky]

So one user says here that the blame is on that HIFK guy and it becomes 100% fact for you? If the same user would say that KHL is more softpower propaganda than sport competition, would that also become 100% fact for you? As CHL has many shareholders (atleast 26 teams, 6 leagues and IIHF) it seems highly unlikely that only one shareholder could stop something on his own. I mean if every other shareholders want to go ahead. That kind of business might work somewhere else, but it is not the way business is done here in Europe.

Of course I do not trust Jussi. Especially based on his history. Perhaps, you noticed the rest of my sentence. It is based on Medvedev´s statement, who was the KHL Pres at the time. He said that one of reasons for the KHL not joining the CHL was a situation of Jokerit. The CHL did not want the team for whatever reasons. Strange. An agreement, verbal or written, of the Liiga teams not to play against Jokerit is strange as well. Especially if Liiga clubs have no problem to play against other KHL teams.

Sorry, but I can not see any business in the CHL.

Btw, you ommited the following: "If a financial issues are "poor excuses", what is "the CHL 2008 & Lev according to your statement"? A myth? "

 

[Jussi]

Of course I do not trust Jussi. Especially based on his history.

Me being right as usual.

Every Finnish poster here has probably read about this: HIFK-pomo esti Jokereiden pelaamisen Mestareiden liigassa? | Sportti.com

- KHL:n poisjäänti johtui Jokereista. Sitä voidaan Timo Everiltä kysyä. Syynä oli varmaan KHL:n laajentumisen pelko. KHL laittoi ehdoksi, että siellä ovat mukana Jokerit, Bratislava ja viisi venäläisseuraa. Bratislavan olisivat hyväksyneet, mutta eivät Jokereita. Se on ihan selvä juttu, Kummola sanoi.

"Kummola: KHL not being included is because of Jokerit. You can askTimo Everi about that. Probably fear of KHL expansion. KHL's term was that Jokerit, Bratislava and 5 Russian clubs would take part. Bratislava would have been ok but not Jokerit. That was obvious."

Background being that Jokerit had just left the Finnish league while breaking several regulations/procedures, an issue that was settled later when Jokerit paid all Liiga clubs a sum. Everi has since changed his stance. Seriously, this was covered a few years ago already. Time for you people to get your memory checked.

 

[Toro2017]

Of course I do not trust Jussi.

As I thought. You only pick up some comments, when they support your agenda. But on the otherhand I don't understand what are we debating about. As I said, I don't want KHL in CHL. Do you want KHL in CHL?

He said that one of reasons for the KHL not joining the CHL was a situation of Jokerit.

It was probably an excuse, one could get behind, when they (for whatever reason) would not want to give the real reason. Or do you really expect me to believe that if KHL/Moscow would really want to integrate with "Hockey Europe", one foreign team (that can't even run on it's own, but basicly lives on russian money) would become a problem? But then again, if they would not want to join CHL, Jokerit would serve as a pecfect excuse.

Sorry, but I can not see any business in the CHL.

Well then again, what are we debating about? I don't want KHL in CHL, do you?

Btw, you ommited the following: "If a financial issues are "poor excuses", what is "the CHL 2008 & Lev according to your statement"? A myth? "

If there were some real financial problem for the company that were committed to CHL in 2008, they would probably have cut off little bit / or more on everything they were sponsoring at the time. They withdraw from only one partnership. Reason or excuse? And if crisis in Ukraine were the reason in 2014, why it affected only one team in EU area? Reason or excuse?

 

[Toro2017]

Kummola

Kummola said something and as I remember it, Everi did not agree with Kummolas statement. Kummola is known for many things but would you portray him as one who "plays with open cards"? As I remember, Kummola had to retire few years after Jokerit left for KHL. Before that he was know as the "Iron Chancellor", but after that decision he lost lot of support and had to eventually leave the national ice hockey federation.

 

[vorky]

As I thought. You only pick up some comments, when they support your agenda. But on the otherhand I don't understand what are we debating about. As I said, I don't want KHL in CHL. Do you want KHL in CHL?

I do not trust Jussi, but on the other hand, this Everi/CHL/Jokerit story makes sense.

It was probably an excuse, one could get behind, when they (for whatever reason) would not want to give the real reason. Or do you really expect me to believe that if KHL/Moscow would really want to integrate with "Hockey Europe", one foreign team (that can't even run on it's own, but basicly lives on russian money) would become a problem? But then again, if they would not want to join CHL, Jokerit would serve as a pecfect excuse.

I can imagine that one foreign team would become a problem. Why not? Of course, not only one reason.

Well then again, what are we debating about? I don't want KHL in CHL, do you?

I want some way of cooperation inside European hockey, including Russians. I want a strong hockey in Europe.

If there were some real financial problem for the company that were committed to CHL in 2008, they would probably have cut off little bit / or more on everything they were sponsoring at the time. They withdraw from only one partnership. Reason or excuse? And if crisis in Ukraine were the reason in 2014, why it affected only one team in EU area? Reason or excuse?

As you remember, Donbass left the KHL at the same time. I would not be suprised if the KHL´s expansion plans (to Europe) to be halted at the time. As you know, the league´s leadership changed in 2014 as well. It is not as easy as people think.

 

[mkev400]

Agree.

The KHL has said many times - we are ready to cooperate with the CHL if there are benefits for all sides. So, if Euros want the KHL to join (positive for the CHL), but to play only away games in Europe or at final tournament played in Europe (positive for the CHL, negative for the KHL), there is no chance for cooperation. At all.

The KHL is not stupid. They exactly know what is the CHL´s position & how the CHL can develop in the future. Therefore the KHL will cooperate with individual team(s)/league(s) instead of the CHL as a group. If the KHL wants to develop in Europe, the KHL does not need to cooperate with the CHL to reach the goal.

Since I posted the interview that sparked this debate anew I think I need to elaborate a bit more on Tipckes comments in it (if you want to believe them or not is left entirely up to you guys)

Alko's summary is quite good but its leaving out one or two points. Yes, Tripcke said it be nice to have the KHL on board and that he doesnt think they should deserve special treatment, such as dictating that the KHL Champ plays the CHL chap in Russia for an overall victory. He wants equal treatment for all teams, especially given this years reforms where the entry is based more on sporting criteria and decreased stakeholdership in the competition. As such he'd want that the KHL sends their Champion and their top teams to the competition if and when this integration ever happens. He didnt say anything in regards to territorial exclusivity, but then again he is only answering the open ended questions as he likes.
He also did not say anything in regards to Russia only playing away games or that it would be financially too costly to travel, but rather identified the greatest obstacle at the moment as scheduling and travel in it self, based on the vastly different schedules for the different leagues and the KHL. Especially in the later rounds where it would mean that a team has to fly to Magnitogorsk (its the example that he used) for a mid week game in between two league fixtures (which would be the case for both sides, KHL and CHL team by the way) and the physical toll it would take on the players as you have long travel and short turn around. I dont know how it is in Finland or Sweden, but in the DEL travel might be more manageable with regular season fixtures mostly taking place on Fridays and Sundays. In the EIHL (Britain, also sending representatives) however, they play a NA type schedule meaning that games can happen any night of the week, in which case scheduling gets that little bit more complicated.

Again, take those comments with a grain of salt if you want. Afterall we are talking about the answers from a CHL board member who obviously is skewing in one particular direction with his comments and is not gonna say anything flat out negative about the competition he is representing and organizing. Also, I hope I could elaborate and relay the comments that he made in the interview well enough. If I come across of being on either side of the medal, be advised that I honestly have no stake in this conversation and my bringing the issue to anyone's attention is only a result of offering an alternative explanation for tripckes presence at the KHL All-star game other than any sort of German expansion talk (which Tripcke should have no say in as the DEL is an independent entity from the German federation DEB)

 

[Toro2017]

As you remember, Donbass left the KHL at the same time. I would not be suprised if the KHL´s expansion plans (to Europe) to be halted at the time. As you know, the league´s leadership changed in 2014 as well. It is not as easy as people think.

Yes, it is perfecly understandable that Donbass had to withdraw from KHL, since that war affected the very region where Donbass is located. But back then there were also a few KHL teams in EU area and all of them basicly run with russian money. So when for example Riga and Bratislava did not lose their sponsors, but Praha did, that war far away in Ukraine sounds like a weak excuse. The only thing Praha did differently than Riga and Bratislava, was that western conference victory and the award for that is known to everybody. Amongst those three places Praha is probably the biggest and richest hockey market, so when they lose their sponsors, it has to be something else than a war like 1000km away. If KHL is run like a business, that is.

I want some way of cooperation inside European hockey, including Russians. I want a strong hockey in Europe.

That would probably be nice, but it won't happen as long as there is no will on KHL:s part. You know cooperation means that both sides agree. Cooperation is not that when Moscow tries to dictate everything. When KHL makes ridiculous demands about Jokerit, the other part knows that KHL is not serious about cooperation. And when we all know what collapsed the previous version of CHL, is KHL in any place to make such crazy demands? (Jokerit was 10# in Liiga the previous season, so no sporting reason. There were already eight teams from finland in CHL, so no geographical or economical reason).

And if after all of this you still believe Jokerit were a valid reason for KHL not to participate in CHL, then try to tell me what would KHL had gained if they would have participate with Jokerit. I mean something that they would not have gained, if they would have participate without Jokerit?

But hey. Don't get me wrong. I don't think that KHL is all bad. It is great thing that they are trying to export hockey in to China and grow the game in Asia for other countries too. South-Korea and Japan sounds good and it would be great to get them also in to hockey. Whether it is in KHL or that Silk Road cup thing. It is also great that KHL is putting so much money on finnish hockey. I don't believe that Jokerit can ever win the gagarin cup, but then again we see players in finland that we would not see otherwise. I just don't think the time is right for cooperation just now. Maybe in the future, but not at the moment. So that why I say that let them (KHL & CHL) enrich hockey world on their own, not together.

 

[vorky]

Since I posted the interview that sparked this debate anew I think I need to elaborate a bit more on Tipckes comments in it (if you want to believe them or not is left entirely up to you guys)

Alko's summary is quite good but its leaving out one or two points. Yes, Tripcke said it be nice to have the KHL on board and that he doesnt think they should deserve special treatment, such as dictating that the KHL Champ plays the CHL chap in Russia for an overall victory. He wants equal treatment for all teams, especially given this years reforms where the entry is based more on sporting criteria and decreased stakeholdership in the competition. As such he'd want that the KHL sends their Champion and their top teams to the competition if and when this integration ever happens. He didnt say anything in regards to territorial exclusivity, but then again he is only answering the open ended questions as he likes.
He also did not say anything in regards to Russia only playing away games or that it would be financially too costly to travel, but rather identified the greatest obstacle at the moment as scheduling and travel in it self, based on the vastly different schedules for the different leagues and the KHL. Especially in the later rounds where it would mean that a team has to fly to Magnitogorsk (its the example that he used) for a mid week game in between two league fixtures (which would be the case for both sides, KHL and CHL team by the way) and the physical toll it would take on the players as you have long travel and short turn around. I dont know how it is in Finland or Sweden, but in the DEL travel might be more manageable with regular season fixtures mostly taking place on Fridays and Sundays. In the EIHL (Britain, also sending representatives) however, they play a NA type schedule meaning that games can happen any night of the week, in which case scheduling gets that little bit more complicated.

Again, take those comments with a grain of salt if you want. Afterall we are talking about the answers from a CHL board member who obviously is skewing in one particular direction with his comments and is not gonna say anything flat out negative about the competition he is representing and organizing. Also, I hope I could elaborate and relay the comments that he made in the interview well enough. If I come across of being on either side of the medal, be advised that I honestly have no stake in this conversation and my bringing the issue to anyone's attention is only a result of offering an alternative explanation for tripckes presence at the KHL All-star game other than any sort of German expansion talk (which Tripcke should have no say in as the DEL is an independent entity from the German federation DEB)

Thaks for explanation. That makes sense, especially bold parts.

The KHL has said many times - we are ready to play a game or two with the CHL champ. They have never said a word about location of a game. Most likely a classic home-away series.

The KHL to send a Champ. Yeah, that is exactly what the KHL would want. But, the CHL scheduling is a problem - we have SKA as champion, many SKA players represent their nations at EHT, the CHL is played during EHT. So, the KHL can not send their team/s to the CHL in full strengh. This CHL-EHT scheduling has not been solved somehow.

The rest of bold parts - good. On the other hand, I read somewhere that travelling to Siberia would be "not good" (financialy).

I accept your opinion about Tripcke´s attendance at the KHL ASG. But I have a feeling that Germany is only one European hockey federation (& Denmark since 2017) who cooperates with the FHR/KHL. Head of the federation at FHR´s Hockey Forum & Tripcke at ASG. Do not want to be nitpicking, but Tripcke was not presented as the CHL Board member, but as Director of the DEL. Btw, Kurri had similar tours to Peterburg before Jokerit joined the league. I guess he liked Peterburg so much!

 

[Albatros]

Kurri was named Jokerit GM only after their decision to join the KHL, before he was Team Finland GM.

 

[vorky]

Kurri was named Jokerit GM only after their decision to join the KHL, before he was Team Finland GM.

Fine. I am not sure what you want to say.

 

[Albatros]

That he worked for the Finnish national team at the time and watching Finnish KHL players was his job.