KHL Expansion Part VII

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Toro2017

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Sep 14, 2017
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The KHL to send a Champ. Yeah, that is exactly what the KHL would want. But, the CHL scheduling is a problem - we have SKA as champion, many SKA players represent their nations at EHT, the CHL is played during EHT. So, the KHL can not send their team/s to the CHL in full strengh. This CHL-EHT scheduling has not been solved somehow.

This season they play 125 games in CHL. Out of those only 12 games were played near to EHT games (less than 10%). The schedule is what it is now, because it is the best solution for the participants. If KHL would join (like seriously) I am sure that those 12 games can be reschedule to serve participants better.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Yes, it is perfecly understandable that Donbass had to withdraw from KHL, since that war affected the very region where Donbass is located. But back then there were also a few KHL teams in EU area and all of them basicly run with russian money. So when for example Riga and Bratislava did not lose their sponsors, but Praha did, that war far away in Ukraine sounds like a weak excuse. The only thing Praha did differently than Riga and Bratislava, was that western conference victory and the award for that is known to everybody. Amongst those three places Praha is probably the biggest and richest hockey market, so when they lose their sponsors, it has to be something else than a war like 1000km away. If KHL is run like a business, that is.
There were some preliminary deals or offers, call it as you want, to keep a Prague team in the KHL. These deals were not fulfilled, so no Prague team anymore.

That would probably be nice, but it won't happen as long as there is no will on KHL:s part. You know cooperation means that both sides agree. Cooperation is not that when Moscow tries to dictate everything. When KHL makes ridiculous demands about Jokerit, the other part knows that KHL is not serious about cooperation. And when we all know what collapsed the previous version of CHL, is KHL in any place to make such crazy demands? (Jokerit was 10# in Liiga the previous season, so no sporting reason. There were already eight teams from finland in CHL, so no geographical or economical reason).

And if after all of this you still believe Jokerit were a valid reason for KHL not to participate in CHL, then try to tell me what would KHL had gained if they would have participate with Jokerit. I mean something that they would not have gained, if they would have participate without Jokerit?

But hey. Don't get me wrong. I don't think that KHL is all bad. It is great thing that they are trying to export hockey in to China and grow the game in Asia for other countries too. South-Korea and Japan sounds good and it would be great to get them also in to hockey. Whether it is in KHL or that Silk Road cup thing. It is also great that KHL is putting so much money on finnish hockey. I don't believe that Jokerit can ever win the gagarin cup, but then again we see players in finland that we would not see otherwise. I just don't think the time is right for cooperation just now. Maybe in the future, but not at the moment. So that why I say that let them (KHL & CHL) enrich hockey world on their own, not together.
Is it good for cooperation when Zug (the CHL HQ) tries to dictate everything? Agree, there need to be a compromise from both sides. You bring an example of Jokerit, which I will not verify, will believe your words. First few editions of the CHL had teams who were at bottom parts of a domestic league. You know that the KHL is a multinational league, clubs from more than one country. As you talked about a compromise, you need to respect this fact. You can not come with a demand, lets say, "we want only Russian KHL teams, because we have 8 Finnish teams already."

With or without Jokerit. The KHL is a multinational league, wants their non-Russian teams to represent the league as well, Jokerit has one of the best arenas in the league - so better presentation of the KHL than lets say CSKA. Jokerit as the KHL team in the CHL would be a signal for another European team/s, who could join the KHL, that they can play the KHL & the CHL at the same time. To be in the KHL, but also in touch with other European hockey clubs outside the KHL. Just a few reasons.

Explain me this Jokerit´s boycott by the Finnish teams/league. How does it benefit the Finnish hockey?
 

SoundAndFury

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May 28, 2012
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Also SKA has like 40 capable players, they really don't need to worry about the amount of games they play. They could easily play half of SKA-Neva roster in the group stages and do fine. By fine I mean have a chance to win every game.

And it applies to every big Russian team to be honest. If anything they are overcrowded with guys who don't get an opportunity.
 
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Albatros

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That's a fact. If you see Jere Lehtinen doing the same now it doesn't mean that the KHL is going to expand to Espoo.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
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Also SKA has like 40 capable players, they really don't need to worry about the amount of games they play. They could easily play half of SKA-Neva roster in the group stages and do fine. By fine I mean have a chance to win every game.

And it applies to every big Russian team to be honest. If anything they are overcrowded with guys who don't get an opportunity.
That would be an degradation of both, the KHL and the CHL.
 

Toro2017

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Sep 14, 2017
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"we want only Russian KHL teams, because we have 8 Finnish teams already."

But this was not the case. They would have accepted Slovan Bratislava, as there were not like eight clubs for Slovakia in CHL. I would assume they would have accepted Dinamo Riga, as there were no participation from Latvia. I would also assume they would have accepted Dinamo Minsk, as at the time there were no participation from Belarussia. Jokerit came from a country that had already eight teams in CHL, so there were no reason to take them in. Not from sport point of view, not from geographical point of view and not from economic point of view. So when KHL did not want to let it go, who was the one, that was not ready to compromise? KHL is not even a founding member of CHL and when we know what happened to the first CHL version, I simply cannot blame CHL for not trusting KHL enough, to give in on this one.

And as KHL teams participate for example in Spengler cup, I don't understand why KHL would need "a signal" to clubs that joins KHL, that they can still play against other european teams, if they want.

After joining KHL Jokerit have played against TPS, HPK, Brynäs, Servette, Mannheim, Lugano, Davos, K-Vantaa and RoKi.
 
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SoundAndFury

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That would be an degradation of both, the KHL and the CHL.
How is letting guys play for you in some competition instead of loaning them to Sochis and Spartaks degrading? Also, I think degradation of KHL is Olympic defensemen playing 14 minutes per game for stacked teams. But to each its own.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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How is letting guys play for you in some competition instead of loaning them to Sochis and Spartaks degrading? Also, I think degradation of KHL is Olympic defensemen playing 14 minutes per game for stacked teams. But to each its own.
Because you do not send your best roster. I know this happens in the CHL all the time, Kometa Brno as an example. That is a degradation of the Czech league & the CHL in my eyes. Or do you think that FC Barcelona, for example, plays with B-roster at UEFA CL? It is another story if your core players are injured.
 

SoundAndFury

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It's hilarious that you took the worst example possible. Not only has Barcelona played B lineup, they have done it more times than any other team in the CL, I think.

Also, there is a difference between playing no-namers and some of the best prospects in Russia.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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That he worked for the Finnish national team at the time and watching Finnish KHL players was his job.
That is one way how to interpret it. The fact is that he became the KHL Board member as Jokerit´s representative & he is a board member of Arena Events Oy, Jokerit´s co-owner. From non-Russian teams only Jokerit, Dinamo Riga & Dinamo Minsk have seats at KHL BoD. As you know, Minsk & Riga are de facto founders of the KHL, Jokerit is the only one non-Russian club with the KHL BoD seat, who joined later. Even KRS does not have a seat & Chinese market is important for the league. The fact that Kurri is a a board member of Arena Events Oy is a signal that he had to be involved in Jokerit´s negotiating process somehow.

As I know, the KHL invited guests to Riga in early years. Later, Peterburg took this role. I would not be suprised if Jokerit has the same role now. Of course, there can be more such destinations, not only one club. By guests I mean guys from teams who have negotiated with the KHL.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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How is letting guys play for you in some competition instead of loaning them to Sochis and Spartaks degrading? Also, I think degradation of KHL is Olympic defensemen playing 14 minutes per game for stacked teams. But to each its own.

I don't like the "base of the national team" thing, but you need to consider both sides of the coin. Concentrating players that way also means that they have a chance to practice with the best players, to play alongside the best players and that they (at least in theory) have to beat serious competition to get a spot.
Now, I think that this approach in 2018 is quite outdated, but we need to consider all things.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
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He's not my friend, buddy! Just because ~10K people get soo see Kovy or aging Datsyuk a acouple of times a year, it doesn't benefit Finnish hockey.
Kovy & Datsyuk are world class players, idols for small kids. If only one Finnish kid, while watching Jokerit´s game, says: "I want to be like them" & starts playing hockey, it is a benefit for Finnish hockey.

Many Finnish players play the KHL for Jokerit, not all would get a chance if no Finnish KHL team.

There are Women Hockey League & the MHL under the KHL´s umbrella. It is up to your hockey federation to cooperate with them, for example launching a MHL team. KRS Women has a few Finnish players & you know that Jokerit is a close partner of the KRS.

If you want to benefit from Jokerit´s participation in the KHL, you need to cooperate closely with the KHL. Ask your federation if they are ready for it.
 

Jussi

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Kovy & Datsyuk are world class players, idols for small kids. If only one Finnish kid, while watching Jokerit´s game, says: "I want to be like them" & starts playing hockey, it is a benefit for Finnish hockey.

Many Finnish players play the KHL for Jokerit, not all would get a chance if no Finnish KHL team.

There are Women Hockey League & the MHL under the KHL´s umbrella. It is up to your hockey federation to cooperate with them, for example launching a MHL team. KRS Women has a few Finnish players & you know that Jokerit is a close partner of the KRS.

If you want to benefit from Jokerit´s participation in the KHL, you need to cooperate closely with the KHL. Ask your federation if they are ready for it.

A Finnish kid is more likely to know and look up to Patrik Laine than Kovy or Datsyuk.

Finnish hockey fed doesn't have the money nor interest for such projects. Much better to spend the profit from World Championships on regional talent coaches, as results and feedback have shown. Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, MHL team is impossible for both Jokerit not to mention the Finnish hockey federation due to younger age groups school and army obligations(with the 18+ players).
 
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Toro2017

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He's not my friend, buddy! Just because ~10K people get soo see Kovy or aging Datsyuk a couple of times a year, it doesn't benefit Finnish hockey.

Here I have to agree with jussi. We are a small nation, but not so small that we would all know each other =)

And I am not sure, if my comment can be use as an answer to Jussis question. My comment was from sport consumer point of view. After KHL came to Finland, finnish sport consumers have had a wider selection of hockey from where to choose. Ofcourse it is easy to think that finnish team in KHL would only benefit finnish hockey, because there will be players that gets to play in KHL, that otherwise would not and I have to admit that I used to think so too. But, it is already 10th year of KHL and if we are honest, has (for example) Latvian, Belarussian, Slovakian or Kazakstanian hockey took any mayor step forward in that time? I would say that Latvia and Belarussia is pretty much in the same spot that they were before KHL. I think that Slovakian hockey have taken a small step backwards and Kazakstan, for the first time in long time did not managed to bounce right back from Div1, as they have done for several years now. Then we look for example S-Korea. No KHL team and their hockey program has taken huge steps forward last years.

But again, don't get me wrong. Hockey is a small sport in global sense and thats why it is a good thing that russian are willing to spend money to grow the game. Specially in Asia. And as I like to think that a team in KHL should help local hockey programs, after 10 years we don't have much evidence to support that claim.
 
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vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Here I have to agree with jussi. We are a small nation, but not so small that we would all know each other =)

And I am not sure, if my comment can be use as an answer to Jussis question. My comment was from sport consumer point of view. After KHL came to Finland, finnish sport consumers have had a wider selection of hockey from where to choose. Ofcourse it is easy to think that finnish team in KHL would only benefit finnish hockey, because there will be players that gets to play in KHL, that otherwise would not and I have to admit that I used to think so too. But, it is already 10th year of KHL and if we are honest, has (for example) Latvian, Belarussian, Slovakian or Kazakstanian hockey took any mayor step forward in that time? I would say that Latvia and Belarussia is pretty much in the same spot that they were before KHL. I think that Slovakian hockey have taken a small step backwards and Kazakstan, for the first time in long time did not managed to bounce right back from Div1, as they have done for several years now. Then we look for example S-Korea. No KHL team and their hockey program has taken huge steps forward last years.

But again, don't get me wrong. Hockey is a small sport in global sense and thats why it is a good thing that russian are willing to spend money to grow the game. Specially in Asia. And as I like to think that a team in KHL should help local hockey programs, after 10 years we don't have much evidence to support that claim.
KHL´s job is not to develop your prospects in Kazakhstan, Latvia or elsewhere. The KHL can help your country, but the most important is an attitude of your national hockey federation & local clubs.

Many Kazakh & Latvian prospects have played the MHL, which is better than Latvian or Kazakh junior leagues. Good for them.

Slovan & Jokerit need a reserve team in their domestic league or a cooperation with a local team. Slovan´s problem is that they do not have money for it, on the other hand the hockey federation could help if there would be a will. Jokerit works with Vantaa, which is OK, but a team in Liiga would be better. But, Jokerit can not loan players to Liiga teams. All, Jokerit/Jokerit´s players/Liiga would benefit if Jokerit´s players could be loaned to the Liiga. Ask your league/federation why it is not possible. The same with the MHL, Jokerit wanted to join, but the federation did not agree.

Slovakia had good players around 2000, because they all were a product of old CSR times. When CSR broke, the system of development of prospects in Slovakia broke. Now we have a result, no world class players. The KHL can not fix this problem for Slovak federation. The biggest problem is lack of money. Why? Because there are not fair transfer rules if a player moves to North America, the NHL or the CHL/the USHL (with junior players it applies to Sweden as well). NA teams benefit, Euro teams loosing.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
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BTW the Slovakian hockey thing, as vorky may confirm, is mostly due because the lads don't like the KHL, rather than the opposite...
That applies to Finland as well. I would say Latvia & Belarus are the same, but I do not follow them closely.

There are still debates if Slovan should play the KHL or come back to Slovak league. And only guys from the federation & the Slovak league talk about it. Instead, they should help the Slovan, to co-finance their B-team playing Slovak league for example. Thank God, Slovan can loan a player to Slovak league, but it is only a few guys.
 

alko

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That applies to Finland as well. I would say Latvia & Belarus are the same, but I do not follow them closely.

There are still debates if Slovan should play the KHL or come back to Slovak league. And only guys from the federation & the Slovak league talk about it. Instead, they should help the Slovan, to co-finance their B-team playing Slovak league for example. Thank God, Slovan can loan a player to Slovak league, but it is only a few guys.

B-team is not Slovan. It will be always considered as a something other like Slovan. Slovan could cooperate with Pertzalka team. Slowly push them to the Extraliga.
 

Toro2017

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Sep 14, 2017
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KHL´s job is not to develop your prospects in Kazakhstan, Latvia or elsewhere.

One might say this, but then they cannot say that KHL (by default) benefits foreign hockey programs, with any credibility that is. It is true that it is not the primary job for KHL to develop foreign prospects, but then again, it is not the primay job for Liiga to help rival company in the same hockey market (in this case Finland). If Russians takes the additude that everything should happen, as they want (without negotiations), it may work in former soviet republics, but it does not work like that in here. Liiga teams have build Liiga product for years and Liiga teams have to compete for consumers with normal market rules and live by the money they earn. Then comes KHL to the same market area. Breaks up Liigas biggest rivalry and feeds it's own club with 10 million extra euros, per year (good for hockey consumers, but not good for Liiga). So tell me, if you were a Liiga boss, why should you cooperate with that KHL team, in the same market area? Ofcourse you can do business with other KHL teams, as they don't compete for the same hockey consumers than you. But why give anything for free to that competitor, in the same market area? It does not make any sense, businesswise. If KHL would have included Liiga in negotiations about the expansion to Finland, they could have find a better solution. For example if Espoo Blues instead of Jokerit (same "metropolitan" area) would have been the finnish KHL team, I think Liiga would have had easier time to live with it.

You always talk how KHL should be run more like a business, but you fail to see this problem from business point of view. Would for example Liigas tv money go up, if they would decide to become a feeder league for a single KHL team? And as finnish hockey gets a lot more tv-money from Liiga than from KHL, why should Liiga put that in jeopardy? Even from the hole "finnish hockey project" point of view? If finnish hockey gets that 10 million every year from russians anyway, why should we put Liigas tv money in danger?
 
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