Jussi
Registered User
Malmö went from Malmö IF to Malmo Redhawks 16 years ago so it's safe to say the name has stuck. It's a bit easier to sell merchanside with that than Malmö IF.
KHL Expansion Part VII
- Thread starter SoupNazi
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Malmö went from Malmö IF to Malmo Redhawks 16 years ago so it's safe to say the name has stuck. It's a bit easier to sell merchanside with that than Malmö IF.
vorky
@vorkywh24
- Jan 23, 2010
- 11,413
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Yeah, that is a deadline for formal application, the league´s final decision can be made later (Kunlun was official at the end of June).
I dont think there will be new teams this summer. Next year is another story.
Thanks for sharing your personal opinion, however I'm sad to inform you that it is inconsequential to the matter.
Jokerit set a precedent and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. In fact I myself was highly skeptical about an expansion to the Nordic countries until it happened so smoothly in a major Nordic capital.
You and your buddies(that 'laugh and ridicule') can stay as far away from the team as possible, but I have a hunch that if and when there is a K team in Stockholm it will be just fine. And if the roster is half decent they'll have no problem pulling in ~10k.
Oh, and please spare me the details on how an expansion to Helsinki is sooo dissimilar to now including Stockholm. I appreciate it but no thanks. I can scroll through some older threads if I wanted to read some seriously biased and predisposed opinions.
Jussi
Registered User
If anything, Jokerit set a precedent on what happens when the owner of a club with a potential to be the best in Finland, no longer knew how to run the club successfully so he found a way to sell almost half the club and the arena fully to Russians who agreed to pay the bills. He turned teh club from a perennial title challenger to a playoff contender that has no means to win the league, a moneyhole that the owner longer has to worry about, a club that's managed to alienate a lot of it's older fanbase. How exactly is that smooth? What Swedish or European club would want to puth their club through that?
Jussi
Registered User
Finnish hockey and Jokerit fans tend to care about their club winning, what with 5 titles between 1992 and 2002. As a couple of younger fans commented at Jatkoaika, since they started rooting for Jokerit post-2002, Jokerit have not won anything. It pains them to watch hihglights of past glory shown at the arena jumbotron and knowledge that they might not get to experience it again, is increasing their frustration. Since gloryhunting and gloating about title wins a major part of Finnish sports culture, they're kind of left out.
You went from being a doomsday predictor to now just painting a bleak picture, however it is apparent that your narratives are arbitrary. Your spin on the situation has premises that are simply hearsay.
Firstly business people sell, or provide shares of their assets for various reasons. Here in Canada/NA we have a multitude of international investors that participate in the sporting markets. I don't quite understand the sinister undertones.
As to the competitive side, Slovan was indeed a perennial title challenger at the time of ascending into the KHL, and continuously for the decade before. Otherwise we're speaking about completely different tiers of hockey.
Jussi
Registered User
Jussi
Registered User
Harkimo's reasons are known and he's stated them publicly. It's not hearsay. What he didn't say but everyone could see that he did a horrible job or running Jokerit for the last 10 or so years in Finland.
What I don't see is how you're relating that to a newly formed club operating in Stockholm. Assuming that some kind of legitimate financing is secured.
Jussi
Registered User
Well for starters, the move of an existing club would be a tad harder due to the different ownerships structure in Sweden (no signle owner, club members are owners). So you can't compare the Jokerit situation to Sweden.
I can totally cite Helsinki KHL attendance and infer ~10k in Stockholm. I wasn't making any situational comparisons, actually it was you who brought up the intricacies of Jokerit ownership.
And what do you mean by movement of an existing club, referring to one from Tallinn? Crowns would be newly formed. Thus they would rent their occupancy from a Swedish corporation that owns an arena. I know you guys lean pretty left, but this is standard business practice even in Sweden right?
In the 90's, almost every club in Elitserien had such a name. Malmö Redhawks, Frölunda Indians, Timrå Red Eagles, Brynäs Tigers, Leksand Stars, Luleå Bears, Djurgården Lions, Färjestad Wolves, Västerås Black Eagles, Björklöven Lynx, HV71 Blue Bulls. The ones bolded have stayed in one way or another until today, so I don't see anything fake about Malmö Redhawks.
No, Sweden is a country where people love their local Swedish team (exception for those who live in a town with no professional hockey team). If Sweden was a country that loved hockey, they would have much higher attendances in NT games, CHL, World Championship etc. That's why the only team that could have a realistic chance of having decent attendances in the KHL is AIK. They're the only ones with a fan base rather open to the KHL. A long shot would be Hammarby and maybe Malmö.
Well they're right. Most Swedish hockey fans have a negative view towards the KHL (although it has gotten better), plus that Swedes and Russians have never got along historically don't make the relations easier. And personally, I would rather have the KHL staying out of "my territory" until they can get a good team. The expansion shouldn't be in a rush, the top priority should be to limit the amount of teams and focus on the revenue.I don't want to judge whole Swedish hockey community based on what Swedish posters here write, but the ones I see here constantly be like,
There's no way an imaginary team in Sweden would pull 10k in average
Not even Lev Prague pulled that many and the Czechs are more crazy about hockey than Swedes. "Crowns" would at top pull 5k in average, if they include season ticket holders in the attendance.The teams that would be able to pull an average of 10k in the KHL would be Frölunda and Djurgården, if they were able to sign some local players playing in North America while being cup contenders. And there's no way they could afford those player budgets, especially with our taxes.
AIK could probably pull 8-9k in average if they played in Solna.
Hammarby is a wild card. If they managed to convert their football fans to support Hammarby in hockey as well, they could for sure fill the Ericsson Globe.
mkev400
Registered User
- Jul 21, 2016
- 176
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But how many years does the NHL in Cali and Arizona precede Auston Matthews as the first overall pick in the 2016 Draft? And more importantly would Matthews have elected to play Hockey if there wasnt a presence in his area? Similar to Thatcher Demko, current prospect in Vancouver. He credits his Dad watching an Anaheim Ducks Game on television to wanting to play hockey. What if the Ducks hadn't been around?
As much as I disagree with some of the NHL teams in the south, they are beginning to give returns in terms of players in the area that otherwise could have very well ended up in an outdoor sport like Baseball or Football.
And thats more to metmags point, how are you going to grow a sport in an area where it has no presence? IF you agree with SoCal or the Coyotes or Kunlun or not, if you treat both areas as markets/regions/countries with untapped potential, then both the expansion to China and California can be seen as equal.
And one could argue that as long as someone fronts the bill for the project, money or indeed currency is not the issue. I mean Canada pays with Canadian Dollars which are not interchangeable with their US Counter part...
What do you base that "hunch" on? First of all hockey isn't even popular enough in stockholm to support a KHL team. It's a football city, and the hockey fans are divided between too many teams, out of which absolutely none would consider changing to a new KHL team. AIK, which has been mentioned as the only slightly possible candidate has the least fans out of all of them.
A swedish KHL club would have to be paid for by some russian oligarch or whatever, and he'd have to cover all their losses and put an extremely competetive team on the ice (SKA level competetive) for anyone to even raise an eyebrow.
Why would swedish fans change to become fans of a team that would likely be middle of the pack at best, playing against russian teams we have never heard of? Why would anyone be interested in playing those teams instead of swedish rivals where there are actually feelings involved?
A swedish KHL team would be an epic disaster. Which is why the Crown project got laughed at, not only by me and my "buddies", but by entire Sweden.
This is not some Jokerit situation where one of the most popular teams would change over. It would either be one of the least popular swedish teams, AIK or a new one. None of those 2 scenarios have any chance to succeed.
But yeah, let's also forget that swedish federation would say no to all of it anyways.
I have to agree this 'Crowns' name won't be good for a team in Estonia. For Sweden I don't really care. They don't want KHL anyway.
Regarding Red Star Kunlun. Think about it? China is the biggest communist country... Red Star is a very recognisble communist symbol. So it makes perfect sense they are called 'RED STAR'
You mention why do they name it in English, look when RED STAR Belgrade changed their name to the Serbian spelling. I heard reports that owners cars were burnt ect.
Duing Mike Keenans iternview (on KHL site) he says he was "working with an indivdual who wants to bring KHL to London but it's a very expensive project' - So London is still an option for somebody at somepoint It seems.
Also he says that Kunlun will be icing teams in the VHL/MHL and Womans KHL so it looks like the Chinese are somewhat serious about their project
What do you base that "hunch" on? First of all hockey isn't even popular enough in stockholm to support a KHL team. It's a football city, and the hockey fans are divided between too many teams, out of which absolutely none would consider changing to a new KHL team. AIK, which has been mentioned as the only slightly possible candidate has the least fans out of all of them.
A swedish KHL club would have to be paid for by some russian oligarch or whatever, and he'd have to cover all their losses and put an extremely competetive team on the ice (SKA level competetive) for anyone to even raise an eyebrow.
Why would swedish fans change to become fans of a team that would likely be middle of the pack at best, playing against russian teams we have never heard of? Why would anyone be interested in playing those teams instead of swedish rivals where there are actually feelings involved?
A swedish KHL team would be an epic disaster. Which is why the Crown project got laughed at, not only by me and my "buddies", but by entire Sweden.
This is not some Jokerit situation where one of the most popular teams would change over. It would either be one of the least popular swedish teams, AIK or a new one. None of those 2 scenarios have any chance to succeed.
But yeah, let's also forget that swedish federation would say no to all of it anyways.
The basis of my 'hunch' is actually quite simple and I'll explain.
Admittedly, I do not account for soccer comparisons and gradients of hockey popularity in the country, however these are some salient points:
1- Sweden is a top hockey country, hockey is popular there at some of the highest per capita in the world. Sweden has performed well and there is considerable media coverage for it nationally. I.E. it is easier to market hockey there than in Belgium for example.
2- There are grassroots development, players and coaching staff. Would not be difficult to assemble a team and attract players.
3- Sweden is a wealthy country. People have good salaries/social system to give them the disposable income to attend a game.
4- Stockholm is the biggest city in the country where hockey is popular and thus there is more potential for people with disposable income to attend a game.
This stuff is pretty obvious. This isn't lacrosse or baseball, were talking about a sport Swedes love(I assume), and where they have local players competing. That should be fun.
You gotta loosen up and relax a bit. Sometimes you make it sound as though going to a hockey game over there is like practicing a religious ritual or some strong romantic affair. Nobody that I can see has suggested that you "would consider changing to a new KHL team", or somehow abandon old rivalries.
What I am saying is that if there's a solid team that has Linus Omark and maybe Zibinejad comes back... (you get the picture), that Swedes may be inclined to spend a bit of extra cash to check it out. Who are you kidding, you wouldn't go? Even if it was against Jokerit in the conference finals? You would flat out boycott and not even watch a highlight? I mean, we're in the KHL thread are you sure you're not lost?
I'm in a Canadian NHL town and if there was some sort of team that was AHL or higher level with some local talent, I would easily drop $40 bucks. And make no mistake, it would have absolutely no impact on my fan-hood for my NHL team which I have been cheering on for many many years. It would have nothing to do with leaving or 'changing'. It doesn't even matter, the more hockey the better, and the higher level, the better. It surprises me that people disagree with that. There are of-course major rivalries such as Boston-Montreal, but geez, if Carolina or Arizona is in town why not have a few beers and take it easy after work at the game? The team needs the points, playoffs could be at stake, and its fun to watch the team play; it's not only about century rivalries. Going with your die-hard friends is fun but isn't it common in Swedes to casually watch games with colleagues or business partners?
Anyways I guess we've exhausted the topic. And indeed there are many hypotheticals which I am not speaking to, but which you also should not be so sure about. The federation is saying no currently as the Finnish one once did, but their leadership is also not permanent and not bound to that previous decision. This is something neither of us can definitively speak on. The financing is also up in the air but we were not speaking about finance and approvals. You oppose the idea of a team in the KHL regardless of those two factors.
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We're not even close to selling out our national team games, why would a brand new KHL team attract those fans? Sweden might be a top hockey country, but the fans are crazy about their team, not the sport itself.
No, assembling a team would be rather easy, but if you want to have any success getting fans you need a good line up.
Yeah and good luck getting good players when taxation would be around 50% or more with those salaries.
Hockey isn't popular in Stockholm. Djurgården and AIK are popular, but not the sport itself. They moved almost every national team game from Stockholm due to the low numbers. And neither Djurgården nor AIK have the average attendance to play in the Ericsson Globe.
I don't think you quite understand the situation in Europe. People don't pay huge amount of cash to watch a team play. And how would a brand new team in Stockholm be able to afford Omark when Jokerit couldn't? Jokerit's losses would look like nothing compared to Crowns'.
Again, different fan culture and most fans are not a fan of the game, but of the team.
There is already a loophole that makes any team walk around the federation, but the KHL wants the federation's approval to not make relations worse. Plus, the Swedish federation is busy ****ing up the league system and focus solely on the NHL
. They said they would evaluate how well Jokerit is doing in the KHL before they make any new decisions. And Jokerit signing a new five year deal with the KHL might be one step forward but I am still very doubtful. Again, the only Swedish team I see have a realistic chance of moving to the KHL is AIK, and that's on the basis if they don't get promoted to the SHL in the next 3-5 seasons.Trust me when I say Crowns, with Zibanejad and Omark etc would not be guaranteed to have a full house in Stockholm even if the tickets were free.
And no, I wouldn't watch a Crowns game in a KHL finals against Jokerit. Because 1: I am not a fan of Crowns, and 2: I do not care about Jokerit, and that is how most swedes would feel. I would "boycott" it as i "boycott" everything I don't care about I guess.
There are very very very few people in Sweden who would go to a game just to watch slightly better hockey than in our own league, when they don't care at all about the team. Omark and Zibanejad (why would he leave NHL again?) aren't exactly names that raises anyones eyebrows anyways.
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Alessandro Seren Rosso
Registered User
You know that this is what people said about Lev, do you?
And in Jokerit in the finals (in the unlikely case where they'd manage to kick out ska-cska-lokomotiv) it would just be the same.
I don't think you should used a team that folded after 2 years to prove a point.
That should attract more spectators, but then we're back at the huge player budget Crowns would need to reach that far. It's a project deemed to fail.
Jussi
Registered User
Well the whole scenario is unlikely in that Jokerit won't make it to a final with a 10 million euro player budget either.
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