KHL Expansion Part VII

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Jonimaus

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Jul 15, 2011
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Hockey used to be bigger still around the the early 90'd but then came along World Cup '94 and the bronze medal. The EHT games between Finland and Sweden in Globen used to be almost guaranteed sell outs until about 15 ears ago but then it wavered off. In my opinion, Sweden need to be doing poorly in football and a hockey prospect that creates special interest among all hockey fans in the country needs to hit the spotlight. Foppa, Sedins or Zetterberg were players like that.

I think it's too late for that. European football is way more easily accessible nowdays. There are as many kids with Ronaldo and Messi as their idols as there are kids with Zlatan as their idol. Unless the NHL moved to Europe there is 0% chance that hockey will overtake football in Sweden, litterally 0%. Even a Gretzky wouldn't change it since we would only see him play once every 4 years (unless the NHL screws that up).

Sedins and Zetterberg were never really household names either as Forsberg used to be.
 
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Jussi

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I think it's too late for that. European football is way more easily accessible nowdays. There are as many kids with Ronaldo and Messi as their idols as there are kids with Zlatan as their idol. Unless the NHL moved to Europe there is 0% chance that hockey will overtake football in Sweden, litterally 0%. Even a Gretzky wouldn't change it since we would only see him play once every 4 years (unless the NHL screws that up).

Sedins and Zetterberg were never really household names either as Forsberg used to be.

I do think that while it may bring the clubs more money, exposure on free tv would be more beneficial for the sport in Europe. Domestic leagues or CHL.
 

penepi

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I know this may sound as completely detached from reality, but, in the future, is there any possibility of a KHL team in Kaliningrad? I think this might be very interesting.
 

vorky

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Jan 23, 2010
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I know this may sound as completely detached from reality, but, in the future, is there any possibility of a KHL team in Kaliningrad? I think this might be very interesting.

I dont think so. IMO there wont be expansion within Russia anymore, likely there will be contraction of Russian teams. Does Kaliningrad have an appropriate arena btw?

If I were KHL, I would go to Germany as next step. It could be capital, Berlin, or other place. So, where is the most Russians in Germany? What cities? Of course East Germany (we have had rumors about Dresden in KHL). I heard about Russian diaspora in Dusseldorf & we have heard about Dusseldorf going to KHL of course :D What a coincidence :D
 

Rigafan

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I dont think so. IMO there wont be expansion within Russia anymore, likely there will be contraction of Russian teams. Does Kaliningrad have an appropriate arena btw?

If I were KHL, I would go to Germany as next step. It could be capital, Berlin, or other place. So, where is the most Russians in Germany? What cities? Of course East Germany (we have had rumors about Dresden in KHL). I heard about Russian diaspora in Dusseldorf & we have heard about Dusseldorf going to KHL of course :D What a coincidence :D

As much as I'd love a Berlin or Dresden team... Why would a German team leave the safety of the DEL? Its big business and is very well supported? Unless they were taken over like Jokerit I couldn't see it with one of the established teams
 

penepi

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I dont think so. IMO there wont be expansion within Russia anymore, likely there will be contraction of Russian teams. Does Kaliningrad have an appropriate arena btw?

If I were KHL, I would go to Germany as next step. It could be capital, Berlin, or other place. So, where is the most Russians in Germany? What cities? Of course East Germany (we have had rumors about Dresden in KHL). I heard about Russian diaspora in Dusseldorf & we have heard about Dusseldorf going to KHL of course :D What a coincidence :D

'Only' football arena for the upcoming FIFA World Cup. It would require a new arena and a club as such, so it was only my "out of the blue idea".

East Germany sounds like a good idea, I believe it might be realistic to get one team from there within next three years.
 

vorky

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As much as I'd love a Berlin or Dresden team... Why would a German team leave the safety of the DEL? Its big business and is very well supported? Unless they were taken over like Jokerit I couldn't see it with one of the established teams

Of course there is no reason for DEL club to leave. On the other hand, there was no reason for Jokerit to leave as well. Yes, Rotenbergs bought Jokerit and have financed the team, but without Harkimo it would not be possible. As I know Harkimo has had a vision of pan-european league for many many years, even when KHL was not established. So, he just joined the project, the KHL, which can fulfil his vision. Money is not a problem. They will always find a sponsor, Russian, German, Chinese or even Martian. Does not matter. If there is a will to do something, the way how to achieve it will be found. There is interest from Europe and Asia to join the KHL, but the problem are national hockey federations. We dont know, if the interest is from classic European clubs or brand new like Lev. Asia is less complicated, national hockey federations have no problem with KHL team on their territory. I guess brand new clubs from Asia will join the KHL.

KHL´s expansion history says that the league is interested in clubs from capital (AIK, Slovan, Medvescak, Kunlun, Jokerit, Lev Prague), because the most influential media are located in the capital. As simple as that. All other rumors (Hamburg, Dresden, Dusseldorf to stay in Germany) are projects of someone from the region, who wants to join the KHL. It is not KHL´s idea. That is a reason why these clubs have never joined the KHL. Can the league change the approach? Of course, but now I dont see any reason to do that.

Another question is - is the KHL interested in classic clubs or brand new, if we are speaking about Europe? The KHL is not in a possition to expand for the sake of expansion anymore. So the league can select what team will strenghten the league and what not. The KHL has some conditions for new clubs - image, financial stability, player roster (potential), arena etc. The image is important here - classic clubs should prevail over brand new one. I dont think the KHL wants to experiment anymore, they will go for 100% - all they want (IMO classic club) or nothing. Plus, it is not easy to get a green light from federation... sure, you can get it for brand new club, but it does not mean you will get a green light a few years later when a brand new club will fail for some reasons and you (KHL) want classic one as substitution (Lev Poprad vs Slovan situation).

We can speculate. If the KHL is interested in club from Berlin (capital), then problem with arena occurs. Eisbaren plays in Mercedes-Benz Arena, the same Alba. Third tenant would be too much and would AEG agree? ... is there any other approriate arena in Berlin? Dont know. Of course, we can analyze other German/European cities like that. I chose Berlin, because we know that the KHL is interested in Germany and Berlin is capital (see above).
 
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bordshockeypampen

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Dec 11, 2013
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Money is not a problem. They will always find a sponsor, Russian, German, Chinese or even Martian. Does not matter. If there is a will to do something, the way how to achieve it will be found.
Why is money not a problem? How can a German team in KHL find a sponsor that is willing to spend tens of millions of euro more each year than they would like to spend on a German team in DEL?
 

vorky

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Jan 23, 2010
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Why is money not a problem? How can a German team in KHL find a sponsor that is willing to spend tens of millions of euro more each year than they would like to spend on a German team in DEL?

ask Jokerit or Slovan or Riga... :D Slovan and Riga had some financial troubles as we know. What happened? Medvedev (KHL, Gazprom) secured their financing with Wingas (Gazprom). Would Wingas sponsor Riga or Slovan if both playing their national championships? Of course not. Wingas have sponsored them beause of playing KHL. As you know, Jokerit´s financing for 3 seasons was a part of a deal to move to KHL. If they did not make a deal about financing, Jokerit would never joined the KHL. As you know, they have secured Jokerit´s financing for next five seasons. Jokerit is very important for KHL, what can not be said about Medvescak (therefore the club is leaving). DEL club in KHL would be a great image for KHL, especially if it was Eisbaren. KHL/Russians would secure their financing as they did with Jokerit. Jokerit announced a partnership with Kunlun Red Star Beijing, the part of a deal is promotion of Jokerit bussiness partners in China. Would some German companies be interested in such a deal? Why not. You have to differ between companies interested in local market and those interested in worldwide market.
 

hansomreiste

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ask Jokerit or Slovan or Riga... :D Slovan and Riga had some financial troubles as we know. What happened? Medvedev (KHL, Gazprom) secured their financing with Wingas (Gazprom). Would Wingas sponsor Riga or Slovan if both playing their national championships? Of course not. Wingas have sponsored them beause of playing KHL. As you know, Jokerit´s financing for 3 seasons was a part of a deal to move to KHL. If they did not make a deal about financing, Jokerit would never joined the KHL. As you know, they have secured Jokerit´s financing for next five seasons. Jokerit is very important for KHL, what can not be said about Medvescak (therefore the club is leaving). DEL club in KHL would be a great image for KHL, especially if it was Eisbaren. KHL/Russians would secure their financing as they did with Jokerit. Jokerit announced a partnership with Kunlun Red Star Beijing, the part of a deal is promotion of Jokerit bussiness partners in China. Would some German companies be interested in such a deal? Why not. You have to differ between companies interested in local market and those interested in worldwide market.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the reason those clubs you mentioned needed financial support was their inclusion in KHL in the first place. I mean, neither Dinamo nor Slovan would need so much money if they didn't play in KHL. You can argue that they benefit from being in that league, it's another story; but it's undeniable that KHL clubs themselves cannot make profit and always have to rely on financial backing.

I don't like comparing NHL and KHL but Russians really have problems with sustainability. This is not a problem KHL board can solve in a year or two, it's more about the economy of the country and mindset of people. I keep giving this example: several years ago, I found tickets at around 10 USD for Avangard's play-off match-ups. A couple of months ago, I bought two tickets for Dynamo Minsk (against Yugra & Avtomobilist) for around 15 USD. This money means nothing to KHL clubs, it's simply joke to them. There is no way they can turn profit thanks to TV deals, ticket or merchandise sales. On the other hand, as I said, this seems quite impossible to change. You can't ask people in Minsk to pay 100 USD for a game.

This is a really tough problem KHL somehow needs to overcome if they want to attract bigger teams from Europe. Yes, the quality of hockey on ice is great but for "companies" to choose them... There are not many reasons to speak of. Going to KHL is not an upgrade for those guys. It's like earning 3K USD and renting a villa that costs 10K a month - yes, the place you live is way better, but you just keep registering losses over and over again. Why would you do that unless someone has youır back? And even if s/he did... How can you trust them and know that they won't let you down, say, a couple of months later?
 

Jablkon

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May 23, 2014
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I have a question here. When KHL does not want to enter to Champions hockey league, what is its strategy towards expansion? I mean there are already a lot of teams in KHL and to make pan european league, you would have to attract at least one german, czech, swiss and swedish team. Are they hypotheticaly open to receive 4-5 teams?
 

hansomreiste

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Sep 23, 2015
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The head of a French company called Total East is interested in starting a KHL team in France.

http://tass.ru/sport/4173033

If there's such an incentive already, I'd say we are very likely to have a team from France if Le Pen gets elected. Even without her, this can work; but with her in charge, I'm sure the process would be way smoother and faster.

Though I already feel for such a team. They'll be quite far away from the rest of the league. Sure, KHL teams are scattered across a vast area but still, a team from France would have to fly way more than others, nonetheless. Imagine their away trip to Vladivostok-Khabarovsk-Shanghai and maybe Omsk/Astana as well.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I have a question here. When KHL does not want to enter to Champions hockey league, what is its strategy towards expansion? I mean there are already a lot of teams in KHL and to make pan european league, you would have to attract at least one german, czech, swiss and swedish team. Are they hypotheticaly open to receive 4-5 teams?

There is not so many informations about new development strategy of the league yet. So it is not easy to predict anything.

There are rumors that the league wants to kick Yugra and Novokuznetsk out this summer. Medvescak is leaving as well. So, if that happened, there would be 4 free spots for new clubs.

The league made a statement a few weeks ago that they consider several applications from European and Asian clubs. It does not mean that new clubs will join the league this summer, but serious negotiations are under way. We dont know if there is interest from classic European clubs or projects like Lev.
 
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Jablkon

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May 23, 2014
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There is not so many informations about new development strategy of the league yet. So it is not easy to predict anything.

There are rumors that the league wants to kick Yugra and Novokuznetsk out this summer. Medvescak is leaving as well. So, if that happened, there would be 4 free spots for new clubs.

The league made a statement a few weeks ago that they consider several applications from European and Asian clubs. It does not mean that new clubs will join the league this summer, but serious negotiations are under way. We dont know if there is interest from classic European clubs or projects like Lev.

Thanks for reply. I mentioned those states as an example. There is probably not so much going on there in terms of joining KHL.
 

Go Donbass

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Sep 27, 2013
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If there's such an incentive already, I'd say we are very likely to have a team from France if Le Pen gets elected. Even without her, this can work; but with her in charge, I'm sure the process would be way smoother and faster.

Though I already feel for such a team. They'll be quite far away from the rest of the league. Sure, KHL teams are scattered across a vast area but still, a team from France would have to fly way more than others, nonetheless. Imagine their away trip to Vladivostok-Khabarovsk-Shanghai and maybe Omsk/Astana as well.

I think at some point the KHL is going to have to consider a non-cross over schedule during the regular season, or at the very least a schedule where you only play, say half the teams in the other conference every second year. They have to do something to control travel costs for teams if they want to make a serious incursion into Western Europe.
 

Rigafan

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Jul 28, 2016
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but the reason those clubs you mentioned needed financial support was their inclusion in KHL in the first place. I mean, neither Dinamo nor Slovan would need so much money if they didn't play in KHL. You can argue that they benefit from being in that league, it's another story; but it's undeniable that KHL clubs themselves cannot make profit and always have to rely on financial backing.

I don't like comparing NHL and KHL but Russians really have problems with sustainability. This is not a problem KHL board can solve in a year or two, it's more about the economy of the country and mindset of people. I keep giving this example: several years ago, I found tickets at around 10 USD for Avangard's play-off match-ups. A couple of months ago, I bought two tickets for Dynamo Minsk (against Yugra & Avtomobilist) for around 15 USD. This money means nothing to KHL clubs, it's simply joke to them. There is no way they can turn profit thanks to TV deals, ticket or merchandise sales. On the other hand, as I said, this seems quite impossible to change. You can't ask people in Minsk to pay 100 USD for a game.

This is a really tough problem KHL somehow needs to overcome if they want to attract bigger teams from Europe. Yes, the quality of hockey on ice is great but for "companies" to choose them... There are not many reasons to speak of. Going to KHL is not an upgrade for those guys. It's like earning 3K USD and renting a villa that costs 10K a month - yes, the place you live is way better, but you just keep registering losses over and over again. Why would you do that unless someone has youır back? And even if s/he did... How can you trust them and know that they won't let you down, say, a couple of months later?

Riga are one of the few teams that can actually turn a profit in the KHL. I know that the 2015/16 season we did this by not spending all of the sponsorship income!

Speaking of sponsorship Riga made around €12m during that season, thats in Latvia, a country of just over 2m people. Imagine what kind of money a team in say Berlin could bring in with just sponsorship money? Then TV money, then ticket sales because in Berlin you could sell hockey for $100 if you want to, hell even in Riga you can pay €60 if you real like it to watch Dinamo.

However it is true that the majority of the league struggle with their image and income, maybe this is why the league is trying to 'force' them to either short it out or they'll be replaced.

I have a question here. When KHL does not want to enter to Champions hockey league, what is its strategy towards expansion? I mean there are already a lot of teams in KHL and to make pan european league, you would have to attract at least one german, czech, swiss and swedish team. Are they hypotheticaly open to receive 4-5 teams?

From reading interviews and the kindly translated ones posted on here by others, it seems to be 'whats the point?' and 'what can the CHL offer to the KHL product' and at the moment that is nothing. The prize money - for a KHL team isn't worth thinking about and the extra scheduling just so the KHL teams can steam roll say, Polish, Danish ect teams in the group stage is probably pointless too for them.

I'd like to see a CHL V KHL winner or something but I believe even that was declined by one of the parties.

I think at some point the KHL is going to have to consider a non-cross over schedule during the regular season, or at the very least a schedule where you only play, say half the teams in the other conference every second year. They have to do something to control travel costs for teams if they want to make a serious incursion into Western Europe.

The NFL works like that doesn't it? Only playing certain teams sometimes in the other conference? It could work like play your East conference teams X amount of times home and away then play a select teams from the other side of the world only X times and alternate each year? It may not be fair and I'm sure people get paid more than me to figure these things out :nod:
 

mkev400

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Jul 21, 2016
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The NFL works like that doesn't it? Only playing certain teams sometimes in the other conference? It could work like play your East conference teams X amount of times home and away then play a select teams from the other side of the world only X times and alternate each year? It may not be fair and I'm sure people get paid more than me to figure these things out :nod:

Its also how the AHL works. The result? People getting bored about seeing the same teams over and over and over and over. Its not a problem in the NFL, because there are so few games as it stands but if you try it in Hockey you are gonna end up with very repetitive schedules because the missing interconference games will have to be made up with divisional games...
 

Jonimaus

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Speaking of sponsorship Riga made around €12m during that season, thats in Latvia, a country of just over 2m people. Imagine what kind of money a team in say Berlin could bring in with just sponsorship money? Then TV money, then ticket sales because in Berlin you could sell hockey for $100 if you want to, hell even in Riga you can pay €60 if you real like it to watch Dinamo.

Yeah, you could sell tickets for 100 in Berlin, and you'd get a whole 5 people attending the games! Amazing!
 

Rigafan

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Not to mention getting tv money for hockey in a country that lives off of football and where hockey barely gets on tv.

With that attitude then every hockey league outside of Finland, Czech, Lativa, Russia and Canada should probably just give up shouldn't it? Because 'oh no! soccer is a popular sport as well!'

DEL teams seem to have no issue getting money in such a football mad country already
 

mkev400

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Jul 21, 2016
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DEL teams seem to have no issue getting money in such a football mad country already

Yes... And no... The current league wide deal with Telekom is 1 Million Euros per season. You can add a couple of bucks on top for the odd free tv games per season but thats it. And yet it was described as a Mega-Deal because it is so much more than the DEL has received for Broadcasting in the past...
 

Jussi

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Yes... And no... The current league wide deal with Telekom is 1 Million Euros per season. You can add a couple of bucks on top for the odd free tv games per season but thats it. And yet it was described as a Mega-Deal because it is so much more than the DEL has received for Broadcasting in the past...

Per team?
 
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