KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

[vorky]

Will KHL release any information about their planned "execution" of three teams at the end of season? Don't remember where but I read some piece where it was suggested that KHL would make information available to fans and therefore letting us follow and know beforehand which team would leave at the end of the season. Basically, a demotion table which is updated based on criteria (financial status, attendance, on-ice results etc.) KHL set. Do you think they will publish something like that and update it? Or maybe, not update but just one table at the end of season to show which team got how many "criteria points" and therefore had to be gone?

I feel like KHL as the shady organization it is won't ever come up with anything - they will just announce the leaving teams. I hope I will be wrong, because I really would like to know what is more likely to happen. I want to know if it is the last KHL game of Amur I am watching or if a couple of wins would improve their chances of staying afloat.

I really hope Amur stays but it looks like they will be gone in next season if not in this one.

The plan is to release the ranking after finish of the regular season, sometimes in March. Chernyshenko said cca 6 teams are in danger.

 

[Rigafan]

Will KHL release any information about their planned "execution" of three teams at the end of season? Don't remember where but I read some piece where it was suggested that KHL would make information available to fans and therefore letting us follow and know beforehand which team would leave at the end of the season. Basically, a demotion table which is updated based on criteria (financial status, attendance, on-ice results etc.) KHL set. Do you think they will publish something like that and update it? Or maybe, not update but just one table at the end of season to show which team got how many "criteria points" and therefore had to be gone?

I feel like KHL as the shady organization it is won't ever come up with anything - they will just announce the leaving teams. I hope I will be wrong, because I really would like to know what is more likely to happen. I want to know if it is the last KHL game of Amur I am watching or if a couple of wins would improve their chances of staying afloat.

I really hope Amur stays but it looks like they will be gone in next season if not in this one.

If they want the Asia Division then getting rid of Amur wouldn't be a wise move? Plus they are popular so I don't seem them being the first on the list to go.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Getting rid of Amur would just be bad for the direction KHL is going currently. The way things are now Yugra, Severstal and one of Moscow teams should go way ahead of them.

 

[hansomreiste]

If they want the Asia Division then getting rid of Amur wouldn't be a wise move? Plus they are popular so I don't seem them being the first on the list to go.

Five teams will be cut off in two seasons and I afraid Amur might be one of them. Highly unlikely to be the first one but definitely among candidates to go. I wish I will be wrong, though. If nothing else, they need to remain for loyal fans who keep filling the arena regardless of how Amur performs on ice and well, they have been consistently subpar.

Getting rid of Amur would just be bad for the direction KHL is going currently. The way things are now Yugra, Severstal and one of Moscow teams should go way ahead of them.

Asking this because you wrote not Vityaz but "one of Moscow teams"... Do you think is it on cards for a Moscow team other than Vityaz to be kicked? I mean, Moscow region? Dynamo seems to have survived. CSKA is not going anywhere. No idea about Spartak but they have been decent recently. I agree with Yugra and Severstal but after them as the third candidate, I think I'd go with Lada. It would be pretty sad to see them go - they renovated (or built?) the arena just to be a part of this league but it looks like they are just not good enough to be here. Attendance is nowhere near good, the market doesn't look promising, nor does the on-ice product.

This is why I believe an up-to-date table would be cool. I don't want to live with this "Will Amur go out?" anxiety for next two years. And not only them... Admiral is not looking good either. Yes, they were an expansion team and KHL will probably do their best to keep them in but still, criteria are criteria, if this is how they'll decide who goes out. We need more teams from Siberia and Russian Far East. It is one of the main reasons KHL is cool and fantastic.

 

[vorky]

I think Yugra, Lada & Severstal are clear for this season. Then, in ideal word, should be Neftekhimik & Vityaz. After them I do not know. If there will not be appropriate newcomer/s, then maybe no contraction in 2020.

A list of teams before 2020 contraction:
- Minsk, Jokerit, SKA are safe
- Riga, Slovan, Spartak in danger. I would miss all of them.
- Lokomotiv, Dynamo Msc, CSKA are safe
- Torpedo, Sochi in danger. Torpedo has potential, but no-new-arena is a problem. Sochi has great arena, potential as well.
- Ak Bars, Metallurg are safe
- Traktor & Avtomobilist with great potential, but Avto has problem with old arena.
- Avangard, Barys, Kunlun RS, Salavat Yulaev are safe
- Sibir should be safe because of great fans, but arena is a problem (even there is a plan to build new one)
- Amur & Admiral are key for Asian expansion, especially if the league wants to reduce travel costs & reform a schedule (more games within conference/division)

 

[Rigafan]

I think Yugra, Lada & Severstal are clear for this season. Then, in ideal word, should be Neftekhimik & Vityaz. After them I do not know. If there will not be appropriate newcomer/s, then maybe no contraction in 2020.

A list of teams before 2020 contraction:
- Minsk, Jokerit, SKA are safe
- Riga, Slovan, Spartak in danger. I would miss all of them.
- Lokomotiv, Dynamo Msc, CSKA are safe
- Torpedo, Sochi in danger. Torpedo has potential, but no-new-arena is a problem. Sochi has great arena, potential as well.
- Ak Bars, Metallurg are safe
- Traktor & Avtomobilist with great potential, but Avto has problem with old arena.
- Avangard, Barys, Kunlun RS, Salavat Yulaev are safe
- Sibir should be safe because of great fans, but arena is a problem (even there is a plan to build new one)
- Amur & Admiral are key for Asian expansion, especially if the league wants to reduce travel costs & reform a schedule (more games within conference/division)

I personally can't see any Moscow based team leaving. Even Spartak. They are such a traditional team I don't think that Putin and his friends would settle for them being in the VHL. Spartak seem to really be trying to build their team and fanbase but Moscow is so saturated you got to feel bad for them.

Admiral is staying I agree. They are a brand new team like Sochi and jsut need time to get their foundations set and soon they'll be a regular KHL team like the rest, plus with Asia division as mentioned we need Admiral, Amur to be there.

And as for Riga, this is without my biased. We suck, we need more money or we need to invest more of the money we get. We need to win more games. However the fans will remain and Riga is one of the most traditional USSR teams and with Juris being best friends with Putin I can never see Riga leaving unless funding is stopped by Gazprom. Every league needs a bottom team and that's us

edit:

Vityaz I agree. They would probably be suited to the VHL more. Small budget ect. Same with Yugra. As much as I enjoy these 2 teams in the league they aren't on the level of SKA, Metallurg ect.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Asking this because you wrote not Vityaz but "one of Moscow teams"... Do you think is it on cards for a Moscow team other than Vityaz to be kicked? I mean, Moscow region?

At this point Vityaz seems to have a decent budget for their operation so my thinking was they can be simply merged/re-branded much like Atlant was made into Spartak not too long ago. So as a name they are almost certain to go but as a team well, they made the playoffs last year while Spartak was nowhere close.

Overall, compared to the old days, KHL created a very safe environment for Russian clubs to be in with no threats of relegation. As tough and unpopular this decision is it is really for the best for Russian hockey. Also having few more good teams will do good for the VHL, it might actually make it a creditable league instead of purely run joke it was at the days of creation. I actually wouldn't mind at all if they kicked Amur as well it's just that it's not in the plans when KHL is looking to expand east-wards more and more.

 

[RossiyaSport]

Personally I wish Chernyshenko would not talk so much about this. Its twisted and propagandized constantly by the Western hockey establishment.

Relegation should be more organic and not try to stick to such a requirement of removing a certain amount of teams.

Until there is good foreign markets to replace a relegated team I see no reason to relegate a team unless they simply aren't on a KHL level. At this point the main team that probably describes is Yugra due to how small they are.

 

[vorky]

Personally I wish Chernyshenko would not talk so much about this. Its twisted and propagandized constantly by the Western hockey establishment.

Relegation should be more organic and not try to stick to such a requirement of removing a certain amount of teams.

Until there is good foreign markets to replace a relegated team I see no reason to relegate a team unless they simply aren't on a KHL level. At this point the main team that probably describes is Yugra due to how small they are.

Definitelly I agree with bold part. The question is how to define "KHL level team". As we know, all RSL teams were accepted to the KHL for some reasons. But it is clear from day one that some of them simply do not belong here. Especially if the league wants to develop. Chernyshenko recently said a great sentence: Approximatelly a half of teams bring results (TV ratings, attendance) of the league down. Matches of those teams are not watched by fans on TV & what is more sad, fans do not come to their arenas. Unfortunatelly, 17% of all matches do not bring economical effect for the league & relevant teams. Revenues from those games are 2-3 times lower than direct investments to play them. The paradox is that more home games for those teams means more looses for those clubs. That must be fixed somehow. Therefore a contraction. Even without expansion, the contraction have to be done.

 

[Acallabeth]

That policy is like increasing the nation's average health by eliminating sick people instead of developing healthcare.

 

[SoundAndFury]

It's more like sending sick people where the cure can be developed rather than keeping them with general public. Which is a sensible thing to do. I don't really get what's so shameful about playing in the VHL and it just show how bad is the image of that league if teams are fighting so hard to not get there.

 

[Acallabeth]

It's more like sending sick people where the cure can be developed rather than keeping them with general public. Which is a sensible thing to do. I don't really get what's so shameful about playing in the VHL and it just show how bad is the image of that league if teams are fighting so hard to not get there.

They're not admitting the to treatment where they can happily return from some time after. The change is stated as permanent, with the targeted amount of teams somehow set at the number significantly fewer than even now.

 

[MaxV]

Vityaz and Yugra have really stepped up as far as youth program production. I hope not them.

 

[GX]

However the fans will remain

Well, that's has been a huge issue for years now. People are not eager to watch Dinamo without them putting up any fight.

https://twitter.com/UlvisBrozhe/status/904743665410727936

 

[SoundAndFury]

Turns out scoring 2 goals in first 3 home games of the season has this kind of effect. As the basketball team are medal contenders as well, I'd rather stay home watch them as well.

 

[Rigafan]

Well, that's has been a huge issue for years now. People are not eager to watch Dinamo without them putting up any fight.

https://twitter.com/UlvisBrozhe/status/904743665410727936

I was thinking I might have to take that comment back Just over 3,000 the other game, shocking really!

I'd much prefer if we could have our own arena, maybe 6-8k capacity that would be much better suited.

 

[SoundAndFury]

It's not about the arena, it's just about attitude in Baltic countries. As soon as the team starts losing interest drops no matter how historic the team is and how many people consider themselves "fans" in theory. If you aren't generating hype you aren't filling the stands.

Especially now when, like I said, all the hype belongs to the basketball team and rightfully so.

 

[Yakushev72]

Prior to 1967, when the NHL expanded to include 12 teams, there were only 6 teams in the NHL. There were many minor league teams, but only 6 major league teams. To be selected to an NHL roster, you had to be considered a high level player. But when the league started expanding, the competitive quality of the league steeply declined immediately. At least half of the teams in the league had no chance of being competitive, much less winning. This is similar to the problem that the KHL faces with a number of teams.

There are 2 sides to the story, but one obvious problem with over-expansion is the dilution of talent. Especially when the NHL can offer far higher salaries, by and large, to high-quality players. I don't have a great solution, but the problem seems obvious.

 

[vorky]

Prior to 1967, when the NHL expanded to include 12 teams, there were only 6 teams in the NHL. There were many minor league teams, but only 6 major league teams. To be selected to an NHL roster, you had to be considered a high level player. But when the league started expanding, the competitive quality of the league steeply declined immediately. At least half of the teams in the league had no chance of being competitive, much less winning. This is similar to the problem that the KHL faces with a number of teams.

There are 2 sides to the story, but one obvious problem with over-expansion is the dilution of talent. Especially when the NHL can offer far higher salaries, by and large, to high-quality players. I don't have a great solution, but the problem seems obvious.

This.

In 2005, Fetisov & Chernyshenko proposed Euro-Asian League (EAHL). They wanted to start with 12 teams (top 9 Russian teams & one from Ukraine/Sokol Kiev, Kazakhstan/Torpedo Ust Kamenogorsk and Belarus/Keramin Minsk). Later they planned to expand to Europe & Asia & Russia. As you can see, they did not want to include ALL Russian RSL teams (18 clubs). Euro-Asian League did not materialise for some reasons.

in 2007-2008 Medvedev proposed the KHL. The problem was with Russian Hockey Federation (FHR). Medvedev had to make a deal with the FHR. At the end of a day he had to agree with all RSL teams moving to the KHL. I do not know if he wanted all RSL teams or it was a compromise. Now we can say that it was a mistake to accept all RSL teams. Medvedev was not able to contract teams, he even accepted Yugra. When Chernyshenko came to the KHL, he made some financial reforms of the league and proposed to contract Russian teams. We can say he has revived his 2005 EAHL vision. We will see if the plan/strategy materialise.

The goals of the KHL new strategy are:
- A) players salaries to come back to their market value, not to overpay average players (Cherny said they are overpaid 2-3 times now).

- B) "A" to happen, salary cap will decrease & and aim is to distribute top players to more teams, so more parity in the league, so better and more interesting product, so more money from TVs/sponsors, so better financial results of the teams

- C) To attract more fans to arenas & behind TV, you need uninteresting clubs to be cut.

- D) With expansion to Europe & Asia, the league will secure TV deals in those new countries. You need to know that KHL´s more valuable TV deals are from foreign (not Russian) markets. Jokerit is a good example of that. If the KHL accepted a popular German and/or Swiss teams, good TV deals come from those countries.

 

[Rigafan]

As our new Belgian friend has mentioned in their Expansion post. I don't think we'll see a Polish team any time soon. Tensions seem to be on the rise between these two countries.

I don't think a Polish team would have much support? And I don't think many Polish cities have a big Russian population anymore?

 

[Rigafan]

This.
one from Ukraine/Sokol Kiev

Can we bring back Sokol to the KHl please? And Donbass!

 

[vorky]

Can we bring back Sokol to the KHl please? And Donbass!

No chance, for multiple reasons. The same with Poland.

Donbass was in the league, but left for non-hockey reasons. I doubt there will be second chance for Ukraine to get a KHL team. It is only once in a life. Like with Finland & Jokerit or China & Kunlun Red Star. Both accepted the challenge. Another example is Czech rep & Sparta Prague - will not be second chance.

 

[SoundAndFury]

This once in a life stuff is obviously BS but Ukraine can't get a KHL team the way things are now, obviously. And for foreseeable future.

 

[Exarz]

So as of now, Yugra, Lada and Severstal are gone for next season
«Клубы знают, кто внизу рейтинга». Это «Югра», «Лада» и «Северсталь»

 

[vorky]

So as of now, Yugra, Lada and Severstal are gone for next season
«Клубы знают, кто внизу рейтинга». Это «Югра», «Лада» и «Северсталь»

per media, Riga & Vityaz are above them. I do not know what the gap is, but Riga will not make playoff, Seva can. So they can switch positions. On the other hand Savickis said that Riga is not in danger. Years 2019 & 2020 will be more interesting, I can see only two candidates for contraction - Neftekhimik & Vityaz.