KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I respect you a lot, don't get me wrong, this is not going to change, of course. But here, I don't get you.
The league can be international, but still have 16 to 18 Russian clubs. 16 Russian clubs and 28 teams in total makes still for 12 foreigner teams. Not a little number.
And this is without considering that Gazprom alone can fund 30 teams and not even feeling the difference.
We can discuss why they chose 24 teams and not 26 or 28. One thing is clear, they have arguments for such a decision. The problem is they do not reveal details. With limited amount of information, in my opinion, the biggest problem is amount of top players & money. Yes, Russia has many talented players. On the other hand, there are many people involved in Russian hockey, who claim that some players are not on the KHL level, but play the KHL because the teams must to fill roster somehow (you know, limit on foreigners). That the sport level has decreased. Of course these players are overpaid & clubs have debts. How do you want to fix this problem, if you agree with a thesis of deficit of top Russian players? If you want 16 to 18 Russian clubs.

The league wants to earn money, especially from selling TV rights. Attendance + TV viewership of matches between worst 14 teams (last season) is 30 000 people. No people at arenas, no people watching TV. How do you want to earn money then? How many games of Lada, Severstal or Neftekhmik, to name a few, are broadcasted outside Russia? Or even by Match TV? You know that expenses of such teams to play home matches are 2-3 bigger than revenues from them? Why to keep such teams in the league?

I do like Russian teams, not all but vast majority. But I want the KHL to be strong. And yes, I want strong Euro teams in the KHL. Because only strong European league, including Russia, can change current situation in world hockey with a monopoly of the NHL. By change I mean a fair transfer agreement.
 
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vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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?
Under Medvedev every player from every KHL team had pretty much an equal chance to get on the national team. Remember in 2012? Other than Malkin we had first line players from Avangard Omsk (Perezhogin/Popov). Biryukov from Magnitka, Kuznetsov from Traktor, Shirokov, Tereschenko, even Zherdev from Atlant.
Now they prefer to call tourists like Kablukov or Zub (even if they are good players, of course) instead of team russia-caliber players (Tryamkin, Tkachyov, etc.) just because they don't play for C/SKA
Fine. Perhaps is it a policy of Znaroks & the FHR?

I talked about the KHL rules. Did Chernyshenko approve a luxury tax, an increase of salary cap every season .... at the time he was NOT in the KHL?

I do not want to glorify Chernyshenko. Of course not. The truth is that the league is more predictable under Chernyshenko than Medvedev. People, including some journalists, still blame Chernyshenko for everything. That is not fair. They are either uninformed or biased.
 
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Alessandro Seren Rosso

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That the sport level has decreased. Of course these players are overpaid & clubs have debts. How do you want to fix this problem, if you agree with a thesis of deficit of top Russian players? If you want 16 to 18 Russian clubs.

I don't get the "overpaid" stuff. At all. Teams pay the players what they think they are worth. If teams think a player costs too much, then don't sign him.

The league wants to earn money, especially from selling TV rights.

Russia won't turn into America (GDP wise) overnight, in one year or in 20 years. The economy is different, and they need to accept that. In Moscow and Leningrad live a lot of people, mostly are healthier than in other cities of Russia, yet it's hard to think that any league in any country of the world can really work with only 2 cities involved.

I do like Russian teams, not all but vast majority. But I want the KHL to be strong. And yes, I want strong Euro teams in the KHL. Because only strong European league, including Russia, can change current situation in world hockey with a monopoly of the NHL. By change I mean a fair transfer agreement.

Again, having more teams and not just two doesn't mean that the KHL will be weaker. Quite the contrary, IMHO. Kunlun and Medvescak are better than Novokuznetsk or Cherepovets? I mean on ice, of course those two teams had/have a lot of potential that is of course positive to attract these cities/markets in. But having Neftekhimik and Severstal (just to name two random teams) in, doesn't mean that Kunlun or Medvescak have to go.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Fine. Perhaps is it a policy of Znaroks & the FHR?

I talked about the KHL rules. Did Chernyshenko approve a luxury tax, an increase of salary cap every season .... at the time he was NOT in the KHL?

I do not want to glorify Chernyshenko. Of course not. The truth is that the league is more predictable under Chernyshenko than Medvedev. People, including some journalists, still blame Chernyshenko for everything. That is not fair. They are either uninformed or biased.

Blaming one person for everything is of course wrong but ON ICE the Medvedev's era was better. Much better. And if you don't have a good league on ice, then off ice is not going to last. The DEL is a good league off ice (but better than the KHL? I am not sure), on ice is definitely not. I don't think that Russia should trade the KHL with the DEL just because.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I don't get the "overpaid" stuff. At all. Teams pay the players what they think they are worth. If teams think a player costs too much, then don't sign him.
Agree with the thesis. The point is that Russian players have guaranteed KHL spots because of foreigner limit. They do not have to earn their contract, they will always get one in other teams. Of course, GM can say: "you are not worth the money, I will not sign you." A player replies: "fine, I am going to another KHL club." The problem is that there is not so many options on the market for the 1st GM, so he has to sign a player even he is not worth it. That is not my fantasy, all Russian hockey officials talk about it. The problem starts with youth hockey, Russia is not able to produce world class players en masse. Yes, there is a few world class players in every birth year, but vast majority of the prospects are average. Of course the exodus of prospects to America/Canada does not help ... that is around hundred prospects per year.


Russia won't turn into America (GDP wise) overnight, in one year or in 20 years. The economy is different, and they need to accept that. In Moscow and Leningrad live a lot of people, mostly are healthier than in other cities of Russia, yet it's hard to think that any league in any country of the world can really work with only 2 cities involved.
Agree with GDP. The KHL is not and will not be about 2 cities - if all goes well, there should be 14 Russian teams from 12-14 Russian cities, including both capitals, North West, South, Ural, Sibir & Far East.


Again, having more teams and not just two doesn't mean that the KHL will be weaker. Quite the contrary, IMHO. Kunlun and Medvescak are better than Novokuznetsk or Cherepovets? I mean on ice, of course those two teams had/have a lot of potential that is of course positive to attract these cities/markets in. But having Neftekhimik and Severstal (just to name two random teams) in, doesn't mean that Kunlun or Medvescak have to go.

Of course, the league can be stronger with more teams. But those teams must be competitive - sport & financial wise. There must be fan interest & infrastructure too. Can you imagine Neftekhimik or Seva to build 12k arenas soon? If the league wants to develop, big arenas must be there. You can argue with Ufa, Chelyabinsk, Magnitka, Amur or Admiral. All have 7-8k arenas which is not ideal. On the other hand, Magnitka and Ufa are powerhouses of Russian hockey. Neftekhimik & Seva are not. Chelyabinsk, besides great hockey school, has 1 million inhabitants. Amur & Admiral are on Far East, expansion to Asia. That is why those teams will stay in the league regardless small arenas.

The main reason why smaller Russian clubs need to go is a bussiness. The league bussiness will be healthier without them. I would have no problem if the league stayed with 16 Russian teams instead of planned 14. If only Russian clubs to go ... on the other hand, I fully support an exclusion of Lada, Yugra, Seva, Vityaz, Nefktekimik.

Blaming one person for everything is of course wrong but ON ICE the Medvedev's era was better. Much better. And if you don't have a good league on ice, then off ice is not going to last. The DEL is a good league off ice (but better than the KHL? I am not sure), on ice is definitely not. I don't think that Russia should trade the KHL with the DEL just because.
There is more reasons for it, I will name a few. The sanctions was not there = more stronger foreign teams (Slovan, Lev Prague, Donbass) consisting of non-Russian players = European leagues offering good players.

If we look at teams roster, the KHL has had the most Russian teams (22) in Chernyshenko era. To be fair, he inhereted it. He did not accept new Russian teams (only replacing Atlant with Spartak). Coincidentally the decrease has been seen during a time when there is the most Russian teams ever. Is Chernyshenko responsible for it? What would happen if Medvedev stayed & sanctions would happen? Would the league keep the previous level? Would there be more parity? Russians realise that the system has problems. Unfortunatelly they are not able to fix the system during good years, they always start to fix the system during a crisis. Actual crisis has showed it, for example a structure of Russian exports. The KHL is the same, I will mention revenue sharing to give you na example. All talked about it since 2008, but nothing has happened ... until crisis. I can go on with red numbers of the league, or clubs debts.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Long post

I guess we can just agree to disagree. I respect every opinion of yours, you know that. And I hope that I am wrong and you are right on the things you wrote.
Though one thing has to be said: in mid 00s Russia had a good "season" of arenas renewals. From one hand it was a great thing because cities (magnitka, chelyabinsk, ufa, Kazan, etc) deserved and needed more modern arenas. From the other hand, though, building so little arenas was a terrible mistake.
Hopefully after 2018 hockey will get some more money after the football WC stopped draining funds
 

Rigafan

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The main reason why smaller Russian clubs need to go is a bussiness. The league bussiness will be healthier without them. I would have no problem if the league stayed with 16 Russian teams instead of planned 14. If only Russian clubs to go ... on the other hand, I fully support an exclusion of Lada, Yugra, Seva, Vityaz, Nefktekimik.


There is more reasons for it, I will name a few. The sanctions was not there = more stronger foreign teams (Slovan, Lev Prague, Donbass) consisting of non-Russian players = European leagues offering good players.
.

I'd rather the league helped teams like Lada, Seva, Vityaz, Nefktekimik - look at Lada. They left the league and then made sure they built their arena and returned. Sure they are bottom fillers but they have a passionate fanbase, why should they suffer just cause they are a small team? Same with Vityaz, although their location doesn't help - I get that! I want the league to be strong and stable but I don't want it to lose its identity either. I'm all for expansion but, as mentioned it would be sad to see only Moscow and St Peters representing Russia!

Side note - can we please hurry and get Donbass back into the league.
 

Go Donbass

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Read an interesting article on All Hockey today that said Vityaz could relocate to St. Petersburg, and merge with one of the VHL teams there, and become a send KHL team in St. Petersburg.

As for Donbass joining again, well sorry to tell you this Rigafan, but there’s the little issue of a war in Donetsk right now, and their airport is kinda destroyed. The KHL isn’t returning to Donetsk for a long time.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I'd rather the league helped teams like Lada, Seva, Vityaz, Nefktekimik - look at Lada. They left the league and then made sure they built their arena and returned. Sure they are bottom fillers but they have a passionate fanbase, why should they suffer just cause they are a small team? Same with Vityaz, although their location doesn't help - I get that! I want the league to be strong and stable but I don't want it to lose its identity either. I'm all for expansion but, as mentioned it would be sad to see only Moscow and St Peters representing Russia!

Side note - can we please hurry and get Donbass back into the league.
I understand you, as I understand Alessandro. There is some truth is your words.

The league wants to earn money. Clubs like Lada etc are not able to make money, there is minimal or no TV coverage from them. Attendance is low, especially with Seva & Vityaz. Lada has great attendance this season, but last season was bad. Neftekhimik has bad attendance this season. All have small arenas, yes Lada´s is new, which is not good for the future. I can go on & on. That is how the league considers IMO.

Of course, there is another way - to develop hockey in all regions, small or big club, does not matter.

As I said, the KHL will have more cities, not only Moscow/St.Pete.

Btw, home many teams did elite CCCP league had?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Read an interesting article on All Hockey today that said Vityaz could relocate to St. Petersburg, and merge with one of the VHL teams there, and become a send KHL team in St. Petersburg.

As for Donbass joining again, well sorry to tell you this Rigafan, but there’s the little issue of a war in Donetsk right now, and their airport is kinda destroyed. The KHL isn’t returning to Donetsk for a long time.
I read it too, it is an opinion of an author.

Yes, there are rumors. Last summer was a rumor about merging with Dynamo Moscow. IMO it is more likely than moving to St. Petersburg.

Btw, it would be 4th Dynamo, not good.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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It changed a lot but 9/10/12 was the most usual number over the years.
Of course the hockey has developed since the CCCP. If I know Ufa/Kazan/Magnitogorsk were not in elite league many years if ever. The point is that the KHL will come back to "normal" with 14 Russian teams.

Is there any list where I can find all elite CCCP teams & how many seasons they played in elite? I found this, it seem this includes elite CCCP league and 2nd tier. Still, look at teams who played at least 15 seasons.

CSKA Msc, Dynamo Msc, Spartak Msc, Krylya Sovetov Msc, Khimik Voskresensk, Torpedo Gorki/N.Novgorod, SKA Leningrad/St.Peterburg, Traktor Chelyabinsk, Dinamo Riga, Sokol Kiev, Lokomotiv Msc, Avtomobilist Sverdlovsk/E-burg, Sibir Novosibirsk.

That is 13 teams, 5 from Moscow + near Voskresensk, SKA in Northwest (by current federal disctricts), Torpedo in Volga, the city on the border to the West. Traktor & Avtomobilist in Ural. Sibir in Siberia. Dinamo Riga & Sokol Kiev outside current Russia. As we can see, 6 Russian teams from Moscow. Krylya Sovetov & Khimik wont be in the KHL anymore, The same Kiev, but we have a replace with Dinamo Minsk. Lokomotiv is now in close Yaroslavl. Torpedo, SKA, Traktor, Riga, Avtomobilist, Sibir staying in original city.

So we have 9 Russian teams (CSKA, Dynamo, Spartak, Torpedo, SKA, Traktor, Lokomotiv, Avtomobilist, Sibir). Fourth of them have bad/old arenas. We can add Sochi, Ak Bars Kazan, SY Ufa, Magnitogorsk, Avangard Omsk, Amur, Admiral. That is 16 Russian teams, the league wants only 14.


From Soviet times we have Dinamo Riga and Dinamo Minsk (replace of Kiev). The League has Slovan & Jokerit from Europe, more 3 teams to come as ideal scenario. One Asian team to join Admiral, Amur, KRS with forming of an own division.
 
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Rigafan

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Read an interesting article on All Hockey today that said Vityaz could relocate to St. Petersburg, and merge with one of the VHL teams there, and become a send KHL team in St. Petersburg.

As for Donbass joining again, well sorry to tell you this Rigafan, but there’s the little issue of a war in Donetsk right now, and their airport is kinda destroyed. The KHL isn’t returning to Donetsk for a long time.

Of course I know of the situation in Donetsk and in Ukraine. However Donbass were a good addition to the league and what I felt were a real expansion team.

I don't see a time, with the current politics, that we'd see say Kiev back in the league so Donbass was out UKR team
 

Go Donbass

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Vityaz just beat CSKA, and as I was watching the game I had a thought. I know this will never be part of the conversation, just me musing out loud. But maybe instead of constantly harping that we need to get rid of Vityaz, we should be talking about getting rid of Dynamo Moscow. If part of the equation for contraction is reducing the number of teams in Moscow, getting rid of Dynamo makes way more sense in my mind. Vityaz support themselves financially, Dynamo Moscow do not, and in fact if not for an 11th hour rescue would have been reduced to ashes this summer. And yes Vityaz do not draw well in their own arena, but neither do Dynamo. I've seen several DM games this year, and you could shoot a gun in that arena and not hit anyone. Spartak draw way more fans to their games, in the same arena than do Dynamo Moscow, and they are having comparable seasons in the standings. All this "Let's get rid of Vityaz" talk makes no sense to me. If we are going to go through this exercise of paring off teams that aren't of benefit to the league, then let's get rid of the Dynamo Moscow's rather than teams like Vityaz, which aren't hurting anyone.
 

SoundAndFury

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Keeping Dynamo is about keeping part of history. Which Vityaz has none. You can just name Vityaz Dynamo and that's it, problem solved. Just like when Atlant became Spartak.

Also, throughout the history, Dynamo was in the middle of the pack while Vityaz, even having really successful season last year, didn't reach 4k per game. I can't understand what makes sense in choosing Vityaz over Dynamo other than ownership situation.
 

Go Donbass

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Keeping a team with history makes sense if that history is keeping them afloat financially, which Dynamo's clearly is not. This team is in perpetual financial difficulties, and yes that is more than enough reason to ditch them. Nothing will do more to keep away large lucrative league sponsors, quite like teams that are perpetually in financial difficulties. But here's another idea, merge Dynamo Moscow with Vityaz and keep the Vityaz name. Same deal, better financial situation.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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What are Admiral's prospects for remaining in KHL? IMO they should remain in order to expand in the east rivalries.
I think the same.

The KHL wants to expand to Asia, save money for travelling, have divisions of 4 teams. That means you need 4 teams in the Far East & Asia, now we have 3. Admiral/Amur is a good rivarly, no reason to abandon it.

Perhaps, there is a mess with Admiral´s finance. That is why they changed a leadership at the end of the 2017. We will see what will happen.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
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Apart from the Uzbekistan idea ar there any rumours on a possible fourth Pacific east team i.e. a specific city?
I do not believe in the Uzbekistan idea at all.

There is nothing semi-official about Asian or other expansion. IMO media will publish nothing serious until the league officialy annouce it (for example a presser or press-release). The league usually do not comment an expansion anymore. If there is some info, it is only about countries, nothing about a team. Chernyshenko´s latest words on expansion were about an interest from Italy, Switzerland, GB, Germany, Japan & China. I do not know if he mentioned all countries, or only selected one. We will see.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
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mainostelevisio in Finland is telling us that Slovan Bratislava and Dinamo Riga are leaving KHL after this season. Their also say that Lada and Sevestral are staying. The source is Aleksei Shevtshenko and sport.ru, but when I tried to find that story on sport.ru with google translate, I can't find it. Can somebody that reads russian find it or is there some mistake?
Read a thread about Russian journalists if want to know who is Shevchenko. Of course, my opinion on him. You can have different.

Facts, Shevchenko works for Sport-Express (and has some articles/videos at KHL/MHL website as well), this Slovan-Riga leaving article was published there, see (there was some other article from him a few days ago, but he wrote there the same point). Originally, it was said at his youtube show I believe. Then, sports.ru re-published it. Sports.ru has some legal battle with Gazprom Media (run by Chernyshenko btw) about streaming rights (for Russian & other soccer mainly).

Sports.ru is a liberal website in my opinion. Of course, other guy can have different opinion.

Slovan and Riga denied this news for Rsport, here.

You can choose who to believe, clubs or Shevchenko.

Slovan had a presser today. GM said that they would like to stay & have been preparing big changes in finance & marketing for next season.

I think & hope that Yugra, Lada & Severstal are leaving. We will see.

Btw, do you remember who started a campaign "save Novokuznetsk in the KHL" last spring? Yes, we are talking about the same person.
 

Exarz

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mainostelevisio in Finland is telling us that Slovan Bratislava and Dinamo Riga are leaving KHL after this season. Their also say that Lada and Sevestral are staying. The source is Aleksei Shevtshenko and sport.ru, but when I tried to find that story on sport.ru with google translate, I can't find it. Can somebody that reads russian find it or is there some mistake?
«Динамо» Рига и «Слован» покинут КХЛ. «Северсталь» и «Лада» остаются
 

Rigafan

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I STILL don't see Riga leaving. Not because I'm a fan but because of their tradition, their foreign and also the connections with owner and Putin. Gazprom/Wingas whoever they call it will keep funding us to be at the bottom for another season at least.

However if we did leave it would interesting to see what happens. Do they disband the team? Find a new league? Join the VHL?
 

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