KHL business aspects discussion

[Nino33]

@Nino33

There are still the same clubs which have problems with debts. And these teams will leave the KHL soon. Have you ever heard of debts of SKA or CSKA or Magnitka? Of course, you have not, because these clubs have no problems. The reason for contraction of teams is that the KHL needs to develop & some Russian clubs dont have economical potential (and have never had). Therefore the league will kick them out & will replaced them by European/Asian teams. Salaries of top players will grow, the salaries of average players will go down which is not a problem. The average players are overpaid now.

I know; I'm one of the few North Americans paying attention (I've been aware of/following the European and Russian Elite Hockey Leagues since the 1970s)



I'm against the constant NA bashing, and the lack of facts by those who do so

I don't understand calling NA media coverage propaganda garbage (with no link to the alleged propaganda) when the KHL website itself describes things in a worse fashion than the NA media allegedly does!.....it really does seem to me that facts don't matter



Regarding your comments - what's actually happened is KHL salaries have been going down, the salary cap has been lowered, and teams have been reduced.....all you're saying about top players being paid more and European/Asian teams being added is just talk at this point (the ongoing problems the KHL has been experiencing were not planned; things may not work out for the KHL the way they plan now, and in fact thus far the history shows it's most likely it won't work out in the positive way the KHL hopes it will)

 

[vorky]

Of course plans & reality are two different things, you can not predict sanctions or non-hockey related issues. You have to understand (maybe you know it) that the KHL under Medvedev and Chernyshenko are two different things. Medvedev was idealist, he thought that money solve all problems, you just need to pump a lot of money. As we can see, this is not enough, you need to develop the product to be more valuable. Chernyshenko is realist, he knows that money must be earned (better league´s product=more money from TV deals/sponsors).

We, who have followed the KHL since 2008, know that some Russian clubs should not be in the league since day 1. The contraction of the teams was only a matter of time, the inevitable thing. The reason for the contraction is not debts of clubs, but the fact that some teams have not a potential to bring money to the league in the future. And what is worse, these poor clubs have decreased overal level of the league (the debts, bad TV coverage, bad attendance etc). That is one reason for the contraction.

Another reason for the contraction is that there is a disparity in the league - a few very rich clubs and a few very poor clubs. That is a reason for lowering of the salary cap, plus there is a lack of good enough Russian players on the market for so many Russian teams. One solution would be to allow the Russian teams to sign more foreigners (now five), but it is not realistic to expect because of a policy of the Russian Ministry of Sport. I dont agree with 600m rubles salary cap, I could imagine it at 750-800m rubles. Two players per team will not be counted towards the cap & players bonuses (20%??) will not be counted towards the cap too. I dont think there will be an exodus to the NHL, because the best players will get their money in the KHL. Of course, some players will go to the NHL,but it is nothing new - money is not a problem here. Sure, average Russian players will earn less, but they will not go to the NHL either (not good enough).

 

[malkinfan]

The KHL's own website (from 11 days ago) says "We have seven clubs that have frequently been late in paying players’ salaries, and the average delay exceeds 200 days. This season, these combined debts amounted to more than one billion rubles (approx. $17.8m)" http://en.khl.ru/news/2017/05/25/347812.html

In addition, the League is contracting this year, and will again in the future (and salaries continue to go down), according to the KHL website itself; and contraction and unpaid/lower salaries have been issues in past years too

None of these are positive signs for the KHL, they're all serious problems, and none are propaganda, they're are all just basic facts

Pure propaganda- I have already provided the link and the quote on the most recent sportsnet article that shows the writer bashing the KHL and 100% wrong in his statement. Thats a fact.

To date not one single player going to the NHL from the KHL is from a team not paying regularly. Lets go through the list - Mamin - CSKA (Backed by Rosfneft), Antipin & Bereglazov - MMG (Rashnikov - Forbes top 200 richest billionaires in the world list), Sipachev & Kovalchuk - SKA (Rotenbergs - Arkady is on Forbes)... Can go on, none of these guys are hurting for cash. Even with the crash in Ruble they are heavily diversified and can protect with FX hedging contracts to neutralize losses (most likely most of the wealth was protected even during the fall of the ruble).

Yes most teams are alive and well. For your sake lets say 21/27 teams have not a financial issue. Thats an overwhelming majority of the league, so how can you conclude that the league is in financial distress. Your sample is not representative of the greater whole, thats as hard a fact as you can get.

 

[malkinfan]

I'm against the constant NA bashing, and the lack of facts by those who do so

"there seems to be an exodus the other way with top players even taking pay cuts to come to North America. Some of that has to do with financial turmoil in the KHL, including concerns over late or missed paychecks."

https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/06/03/ap-hkn-russian-pipeline

See my post above, none of the guys are leaving because of money problems. Whats even worse is Shipachev's salary more than DOUBLED! Kovalchuk will also get a salary increase. Assuming they land in the NHL and not in the AHL, most will make around or more than they did in the KHL. Long story short, that guy didnt do an ounce of homework to produce the statement. Propaganda.

Most of the guys leaving are going to be going from the good teams, because these are the teams who can pay them, not the financially troubled teams. If more guys are leaving, speaks volumes about the increase in level of play. This cannot be denied, guys have been able to move straight from KHL to impact players in the NHL without ever being drafted like Zaytsev, Panarin, Kempny etc. Players for the most part have always wanted to go to the NHL, now KHL level has turned out to be a great prep league for talent and NHL teams are figuring it out. Maybe produce an article talking about that? Oh and these are not just my thoughts on the improved play in the league. Jari Kurri has some excellent comments (Vorky posted on other thead) or Mike Keenan, fellow Canadian said this:

http://en.khl.ru/news/2017/03/26/343676.html

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...-new-challenge-china-untapped-hockey-frontier

"The KHL is a very good league," Keenan said. "They've got some very deep [rosters with] talented players throughout the league. I'm experienced enough, and I've seen enough North American teams play and [KHL] teams play. The top teams in the KHL can compete with some teams in the NHL, maybe up to the middle of the NHL pack."

You'll never see TSN, Sportsnet, Globe and mail reproduce that quote. They all produced the same Keenan story and chose to cut this out? Why? We know why, doesnt fit the agenda.

"KHL is growing, there’s more knowledge of it now because there have been some North American coaches in the league. It’s getting more exposure, different countries bring more exposure as well, and just through the passage of time the KHL has established itself as a formidable league. I would suggest it’s the second best in the world, so now we can see players who are anxious to be part of this league because they know it’s a good quality of hockey."

Nigel Dawes, now 8 years for Astana, middle of the pack team

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2014/11/...stin-boyd-find-hockey-happiness-in-kazakhstan

“I have been making more here than I did in the NHL,” Dawes said. “You didn’t really think that could happen."

“You heard all the stories about the old league and how people got paid and how there was a lot of shadiness going on and stuff,” Dawes said. “But we’re getting paid properly, it’s direct deposit in the bank, it’s not in cash. Our accommodations are good, we’re treated pretty well, our organization’s good. It’s been a lot of fun.”

Again, you'll never see a story talking about proper finances from Globe and mail, TSN, Sportsnet, CBC.

 

[Nino33]

Pure propaganda- I have already provided the link and the quote on the most recent sportsnet article that shows the writer bashing the KHL and 100% wrong in his statement. Thats a fact.

Oh OK...I didn't know that, and you again haven't provided the link so I still can't see if what you're claiming is actually true...given you said 4 teams and the KHL website says 7 your credibility/accuracy is a problem, and given you're blaming NA when the KHL website clearly indicates there's problems you're obviously extremely biased!

Yes most teams are alive and well. For your sake lets say 21/27 teams have not a financial issue. Thats an overwhelming majority of the league, so how can you conclude that the league is in financial distress. Your sample is not representative of the greater whole, thats as hard a fact as you can get.

I provided no "sample" I simply quoted the KHL website; you're arguing against what the KHL website itself says!

 

[Nino33]

That's Sports illustrated (not a source for hockey knowledge!), not Sportsnet like you said

I think the comment's tame, I noticed there's context too (from the start of the sentence, that you cut out)...also noticed you have salary examples from 3 seasons ago (not very relevant considering there's been reductions for the last 3 seasons)...I don't care about your "explaining" (because contraction/salary reduction are never planned and never desired; you'll never convince anyone "it's nothing" and on the flipside no one is saying it's a big deal like you're claiming - you make it worse by your hyperbolic response/blaming)




I also don't understand why you think it's up to the NA to promote the KHL (do you understand how little interest in the KHL there is.....if Russian players didn't come to the NHL there'd be no interest; the interest is based on players coming to NA, there's no interest in the actual KHL)

You put WAY to much emphasis on media (they're just trying to sell papers/clicks/etc); in NA no one is against the KHL, no one cares about the KHL enough to be against it



And if you're going to say how the NA media is completely biased, you probably shouldn't use NA media sources for examples of players saying good things about the KHL (why would the biased NA media ever print any such thing? you including it is you arguing against yourself)




You can have the last word if you'd like, I want to be done; best wishes to you

 

[metmag]

I provided no "sample" I simply quoted the KHL website; you're arguing against what the KHL website itself says!

To be fair, he did say "For your sake lets say 21/27 teams have not a financial issue" so you're just playing 'gotcha' by saying he's arguing about the website. The argument is based on at least 21 teams being financially viable.

Frankly I haven't seen any promotion of the KHL in NA at all (mainstream or hockey specific), so I don't know why you are recurring to asking the rhetorical question of 'why should NA media promote KHL?'. That has not gone on and will not in the foreseeable future.

Despite your 'gotcha's' and claim that he did not provide a link, he in fact did provide a link directly making his point of negative connotation. You have completely evaded a response to this as a form of negative press by rejecting the source; Sports Illustrated.

The headline is: "Russia becomes a reliable pipeline for ready-made NHL talent"
Malkinfan claims that none of this 'ready-made NHL talent' comes from teams in 'financial turmoil'. Supposedly you dont care to respond, but just reject the claim and then "want to be done."

Most of the article is neutral however, which is fair.

 

[Jussi]

Pure propaganda- I have already provided the link and the quote on the most recent sportsnet article that shows the writer bashing the KHL and 100% wrong in his statement. Thats a fact.

More like awful reporting than propaganda.

 

[malkinfan]

More like awful reporting than propaganda.

Fair enough. Just pointing out that they always jump on the negative, never once a positive. You bump into hockey fans in Canada and KHL comes up, everyone has the worst idea of it because of the NA journalism. Throw some comments around like the ones Keenan said and they be like

 

[Yakushev72]

I know; I'm one of the few North Americans paying attention (I've been aware of/following the European and Russian Elite Hockey Leagues since the 1970s)



I'm against the constant NA bashing, and the lack of facts by those who do so

I don't understand calling NA media coverage propaganda garbage (with no link to the alleged propaganda) when the KHL website itself describes things in a worse fashion than the NA media allegedly does!.....it really does seem to me that facts don't matter



Regarding your comments - what's actually happened is KHL salaries have been going down, the salary cap has been lowered, and teams have been reduced.....all you're saying about top players being paid more and European/Asian teams being added is just talk at this point (the ongoing problems the KHL has been experiencing were not planned; things may not work out for the KHL the way they plan now, and in fact thus far the history shows it's most likely it won't work out in the positive way the KHL hopes it will)

I don't know whether the KHL or anyone affiliated with the league really cares whether North Americans are paying attention or not. Why would they? There is no real serious effort to attract the North American market. The KHL is still basically a fledgling organization that has its sights set on building a European and, to a limited degree, an Asian market. Anything directed toward North Americans would be totally wasted right now. North Americans can access KHL games, but there isn't exactly a flood of business at the moment. Other than Canada, North Americans have very little interest in hockey anyway.

 

[Go Donbass]

Due to their debt situation, Dynamo Moscow may not participate this coming year.

 

[GindyDraws]

Due to their debt situation, Dynamo Moscow may not participate this coming year.

I expect a total bailout because Moscow.

 

[Exarz]

Due to their debt situation, Dynamo Moscow may not participate this coming year.

Already sorted out: http://rsport.ru/hockey/20170602/1121276652.html

 

[Go Donbass]

Already sorted out: http://rsport.ru/hockey/20170602/1121276652.html

That's what happens when you don't refresh the page

 

[Go Donbass]

Already sorted out: http://rsport.ru/hockey/20170602/1121276652.html

Looks like your source was wrong, because everything I've been reading the past few days has been painting a pretty dire picture.

 

[Exarz]

Looks like your source was wrong, because everything I've been reading the past few days has been painting a pretty dire picture.

Do you have any source that says it's questionable if they will play in the next season?

The new owners have the finances covered, the only problem is that they won't pay off the debts to the old players, which has caused the players to go on a strike.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

My apologies if this isn't appropriate, but would someone be able to clarify the bolded statement?

- Как удалось вернуть Никиту Трямкина, который перед прошлым сезоном отправился покорять НХЛ?

- Мы рады, что «Автомобилисту» удалось выиграть борьбу за собственного воспитанника у клуба НХЛ Â«Ванкувер Кэнакс». Конечно, в первую очередь это личное решение Никиты – вернуться на родину. Но с другой стороны – это и есть первые плоды первого сезона «Автомобилиста» под эгидой «УГМК-Холдинга», ведь еще год назад Никите просто некуда было бы вернуться, клуб вряд ли смог бы предложить ему адекватные условия.

http://www.khl.ru/news/2017/06/05/348432.html

Is Ryabkov saying that Avtomobilist couldn't afford Tryamkin after the 2015-16 season, and that's why he left the KHL for the Canucks?

 

[Caser]

My apologies if this isn't appropriate, but would someone be able to clarify the bolded statement?



http://www.khl.ru/news/2017/06/05/348432.html

Is Ryabkov saying that Avtomobilist couldn't afford Tryamkin after the 2015-16 season, and that's why he left the KHL for the Canucks?

Nope, he is basically saying that they couldn't afford Tryamkin coming back a year earlier, but this year they could due to the sponsorship by the "UGMK-Holding".

 

[hansomreiste]

Nope, he is basically saying that they couldn't afford Tryamkin coming back a year earlier, but this year they could due to the sponsorship by the "UGMK-Holding".

Is this something significant? A city as Yekaterinburg surely deserves a better, more competitive ice hockey team. And of course, a better arena... I hope these guys, whoever they are, will make that happen.

 

[Go Donbass]

Do you have any source that says it's questionable if they will play in the next season?

The new owners have the finances covered, the only problem is that they won't pay off the debts to the old players, which has caused the players to go on a strike.

I apologize, I don't have the link but I saw a story on Sportsbox, I think that said that there was a very good chance Dynamo would miss the next season. The day I responded to your comment, I saw another story on the same site, where one of the Dynamo players was interviewed, and said the situation was "catastrophic". I also saw a story that said Alex Ovechkin was personally speaking with Putin about the Dynamo situation.

 

[Caser]

Is this something significant? A city as Yekaterinburg surely deserves a better, more competitive ice hockey team. And of course, a better arena... I hope these guys, whoever they are, will make that happen.

UGMK-Holding is Iskandar Makhmudov's company and his wealth is estimated at 6.5 billions USD, so yeah, kind of significant.

Edit: forgot about Andrei Kozitsyn, he is also there, but he holds just 3.8 billions USD.

 

[malkinfan]

Kind of related, the public address made by Putin on Jun-15-17 Ovechkin can be seen sitting directly behind Putin. I dont want to post the video because its politics related. I can send you the link if you PM me.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Nope, he is basically saying that they couldn't afford Tryamkin coming back a year earlier, but this year they could due to the sponsorship by the "UGMK-Holding".

Thanks.

Is this something significant? A city as Yekaterinburg surely deserves a better, more competitive ice hockey team. And of course, a better arena... I hope these guys, whoever they are, will make that happen.

From what I understand the CEO of UGMK who is also the new president of Avtomobilist is planning on building a new arena.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/andrei-kozitsyn/

 

[vorky]

Is this something significant? A city as Yekaterinburg surely deserves a better, more competitive ice hockey team. And of course, a better arena... I hope these guys, whoever they are, will make that happen.

Avtomobilist will increase salary budget for next season & will jump from 21-29th place to top20 place in players budgets.

@FroshaugFan2

Yes, Avtomobilist plans to build a new arena. No schedule nor detials right now. But its
capacity will be at least 12k because of KHL rules.

 

[Rigafan]

I apologize, I don't have the link but I saw a story on Sportsbox, I think that said that there was a very good chance Dynamo would miss the next season. The day I responded to your comment, I saw another story on the same site, where one of the Dynamo players was interviewed, and said the situation was "catastrophic". I also saw a story that said Alex Ovechkin was personally speaking with Putin about the Dynamo situation.

I've just been looking but I can't find the article.

Basically the new Dynamo Moscow stadium is said to be in a situation where it could be built and have no tenants, as the teams sponsor pulled out and left some huge debts ($200m or so) - this is relating to the soccer team but the stadium is a joint soccer/hockey venture I read

However as mentioned on here the gov stepped in and said they won't let Dynamo Moscow die