Kessel closing gap on Crosby?

[nomorekids]

Kessel stats from the US Development program are impressive. Their schedule is against US College Teams, so he's out there against some guys who may be 22-23 years old, etc.

of course, but it's not THE CHL *angel choir sings*, so the competition isn't impressive enough for some around here.

 

[Habitantpeasoup]

This is Pejorative Slured just like alot of other player comparisons on this board. Crosby is the most sought after player since Lemieux, and everyone saying it scouts, owners, the media, players, former players ETC........that means better then Kovalchuck, Ovechken, Bure... I mean think of all the players that have been drafted after Lemieux. Crosby's a once in a decade or maybe more type of player. Kessel is good in his own right but I don't think he'll ever be even a as good as Kovalchuck, Bure, or Ovechkin which isn't a bad thing but come folks
this comparison isn't even close. Every draft year there is a player of or close to Kessel's talent, players like Crosby though only come around every 10 to 20 years.

 

[Quiet Robert]

of course, but it's not THE CHL *angel choir sings*, so the competition isn't impressive enough for some around here.

You mean there's leagues other than the CHL that develop players? I was unaware of these leagues existed and thus they are useless. Only players who played in the CHL are worthy.



In all seriousness though, I think it's fair to say Crosby has been playing more of a pro style game than Kessel. I know you weren't saying this, and I'm not bashing the US development program at all, I'm just saying that Crosby, to me, is more prepared than Kessel is, right now, for the pros. Could this change in a few years? Of course, but to me, right now, Crosby is playing closer to the pros.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Ask Jeff Friesen that question. One silly tourney won't change my opinion on the Kessel Frolik debate. Frolik just looked more impressive at the WJC and I feel his hockey sense/skill set will make him a better player in the NHL.

I don't see how that's possible since his hockey sense and skill set are inferior to Kessel's.

 

[PecaFan]

Sounds familiar. A year and a half ago several people who had seen Crosby and Brule play two or three times decided it would be fun to pretend they are smarter than the general concensus and say things like 'Brule will be the better player in the end'.

Those people look pretty stupid now.

Really, I was unaware that "the end" had arrived, and an evaluation could now be made. They may end up looking stupid. But you can't judge that now.

Popular opinion is often wrong, when evaluating players, trades, etc.

 

[Epsilon]

Those people look pretty stupid now. It's very obvious to people inside hockey circles that Kessel is on a different level than Frolik, but believe whatever you want.

I guess you talk to a lot of "people inside hockey circles"? And I agree with Jason that Frolik looked better at the WJCs.

 

[William H Bonney]

I guess you talk to a lot of "people inside hockey circles"? And I agree with Jason that Frolik looked better at the WJCs.

Well then Kessel looked better than Frolik at the U-18, so call them even.

 

[Crosbyfan]

.

Richards had 115 points as a 16 year old, 20 shy of Crosby.
.

Wasn't Richards 17? 15 months older than Sid was and in a higher scoring era?

 

[target]

yes indeed...you correct.

 

[Epsilon]

Well then Kessel looked better than Frolik at the U-18, so call them even.

That's perfectly fine with me. The 2006 draft is over a year away and plenty can happen. Frankly, I've heard some whispers that Peter Mueller might be a more highly regarded pro prospect than Kessel because his style transitions better to the pro game. So it's way too early to tell. Some of the Kessel defensiveness and comments like "on another level" remind me quite a bit of the things I heard about Jason Spezza in 2000 when Ilya Kovalchuk's name was just starting to surface in the general public.

 

[Grave77digger]

worst thread title ever

 

[FlyersFan10*]

players like Crosby though only come around every 10 to 20 years.

I laugh when I hear that line because every draft year, there's always some player that the scouting staffs say "this kind of player only comes along every 10 to 20 years." It's all hype. They've said it about Ovechkin, they've said it about Marc Andre Fleury, they've said it about Lindros, they've said it about Daigle, they've said it about Kovalchuk, they've said it about everyone who was the consensus number one overall pick. That argument doesn't hold much water anymore.

With millions and millions being spent on scouting, player development and player contracts, teams aren't willing to go on a whim anymore. I'm not saying that anyone is a sure bet, but more and more picks are becoming good players now simply because of an improvement in scouting. The term "special" is thrown around so much, it's losing its meaning.

 

[pei fan]

I've seen Crosby live twice and three times on TV. I know how good he is.

Would you agree he's the kind of player that you need to
see live to fully appreciate.For me,another example of this is Ray Bourque-he was
good watching him on tv but watching him live gave you a real good understanding
of how dominant he was in a game.The Bruins were a totally different team when he was on the ice then when he wasn't.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Kessel will probally turn out to be a bigger Paul Kariya. Fast with a great shot that can score from far away and has all the shots. Now there are people better than Kariya but how many are way better? Kessel should should fill out to be about 6 feet 190. Thats about Marian Gaboriks size. For the last 2 years the u18 team has benn playing colleges so when Kessel was 16-17-18 he could have been playing against guys as old as 25 years old. With one sole purpose to take out that hot shot kid. I have yet to see him get cleanly hit in the open ice.
Mueller may have the better pro style game. But i do not see him going number one over Kessel. Kessel offensive up side out ways most any other prospect out there.

Gophers next year.
Potulny-Irmen-Howe
Guyer-Chucko-Wheeler
Kessel-Stoa-Hirsch
Kaufman-Sertich-Bostrom
Harrington-Goligoski
Anderson-Hagemo
Vanneli-Peltier

Year after that add in Okoposo, Carmen, and E.Johnson.

 

[cagney]

Kessel will probally turn out to be a bigger Paul Kariya. Fast with a great shot that can score from far away and has all the shots. Now there are people better than Kariya but how many are way better? Kessel should should fill out to be about 6 feet 190. Thats about Marian Gaboriks size. For the last 2 years the u18 team has benn playing colleges so when Kessel was 16-17-18 he could have been playing against guys as old as 25 years old. With one sole purpose to take out that hot shot kid. I have yet to see him get cleanly hit in the open ice.
Mueller may have the better pro style game. But i do not see him going number one over Kessel. Kessel offensive up side out ways most any other prospect out there.

Gophers next year.
Potulny-Irmen-Howe
Guyer-Chucko-Wheeler
Kessel-Stoa-Hirsch
Kaufman-Sertich-Bostrom
Harrington-Goligoski
Anderson-Hagemo
Vanneli-Peltier

Year after that add in Okoposo, Carmen, and E.Johnson.

After all that you put him on the third line? He's already better than anyone on the Gophers.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Would you agree he's the kind of player that you need to
see live to fully appreciate.For me,another example of this is Ray Bourque-he was
good watching him on tv but watching him live gave you a real good understanding
of how dominant he was in a game.The Bruins were a totally different team when he was on the ice then when he wasn't.

He's the type of player you can appreciate MORE live but I don't think you need to see him live to fully appreciate him.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Wasn't Richards 17? 15 months older than Sid was and in a higher scoring era?

You're a Crosby homer... yes Richards was 17 when he had the 115.

Age is nothing but a number my friend (see Patrice Bergeron and many more) and if Crosby is the next great one, we can compare him to older players, etc., etc.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Where did you see him live at? you live in Maine and go to Lewiston games?

I had NO idea that to see Sidney Crosby live as an American I *had* to live in Maine and go to a Lewiston game.

Thanks for the info!

 

[markov`]

Big big = 5%?

Difference but not "big big" (in my opinion at least).

If Richards played in today's QMJHL we can speculate his scoring would go down but can't say for sure. We can obviously agree offense is down but would Richards? Probably but can't say 100%.

Crosby does out match everybody I have mentioned yes, except for one thing... Daigle, Lecavalier, etc. all had "the next Great One" tag at one point or another.

I'm pulling for Crosby to succeed in the NHL, I think it would be great for the game. My ONLY argument in this thread is simple... you CANNOT use a junior player like Crosby as a bench mark for future pro success because at the end of the day, it means squat. Crosby even knows it means squat hence why he wouldn't want to return next year with or without an NHL (everything I've read said he'll seriously explore all options, Europe, AHL, whatever) and if he felt that his time in junior was so valuable, he'd stay there. Junior hockey is great but in no way can is be a 100% accurate bench mark/prediction for the future of a hockey prospect.

Kid's a stud but anything can happen and to use him as a "bench mark" for Kessel and say Crosby is a better prospect BECAUSE he's accomplished more than anybody to me, doesn't make sense.

First of all, Richards wasn't even the leader of the QMJHL while Crosby leads the CHL. It's not only a 5% difference, it's the difference between the leagues. Crosby leads the CHL by a ridiculous number of points, I would be interested to have the statistic on that, I wouldn't be surprised if he had the biggest lead a #1 scorer ever had on a #2, or at least he is close.

Secundo, Daigle and Lecavalier aren't nearly as good as Crosby, and not nearly as hyped too. Both were first overall but Crosby outmatch them by looking at the stats, but he's just a better prospect overall. His determination is 200 times better than Daigle, for example.

Statistics means a lot of things for a forwards, it's more revelant than people think. I don't wanna know what the plus/minus of a defenseman, that's ridiculous, but to win a hockey game you have to score more goals than the other team, and statistics are a good signification of the impact a player has. Crosby impact in the CHL at this age (16-17) is unmatched by anyone in the history of hockey, I repeat.

 

[markov`]

Not sure what the QJHL vs. QMJHL are (if it's the same league or not) but the year before Lafleur's draft year (69-70) he scored 170 points in 56 games for the Quebec Ramparts and the year he was drafted (70-71) he had 209 points.

The record I just looked at didn't have Lafleur's birth year so if somebody can find it to figure out his age (I'm just going by draft right now) then you may be able to completely prove me wrong.

This argument is getting VERY silly now especially since we all just said we weren't going to compare every 16 year old!

Lafleur was drafted at 20 years old. In his 18 years old season, the year Crosby is playing right now, he scored 110 points. The year before, 49. Not even close to Crosby's numbers...

It was the same league, I believe.

 

[markov`]

Anyway, one thing people forget is that Crosby game really just isn't about the stats. He's good defensively and has no apparent weakness, he's a clutch and he WANTS to play hockey.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Secundo, Daigle and Lecavalier aren't nearly as good as Crosby, and not nearly as hyped too. Both were first overall but Crosby outmatch them by looking at the stats, but he's just a better prospect overall. His determination is 200 times better than Daigle, for example.

No offense but Daigle WAS hyped as the next Gretzky, I don't believe Vinny was though.

Otherwise, everything you said was pretty dead on (except stats are important, but they aren't the whole story which you answered below).

 

[PuckFan01]

The topic can be argued until people are blue in the face but nobody will know the real answer until these guys have been in the NHL for quite some time. Until then, all this talk about who is better is nothing more than speculation.

 

[MN_Gopher]

After all that you put him on the third line? He's already better than anyone on the Gophers.

Lucia rolls all the lines. Almost all get close to same playing time. Kessel may or not be one our top line. Our top scorer did not play on the top line Hirsch. Kaufman played on the PP he will probally be the 4th center. Just depends on who is hot at that time.

 

[PuckFan01]

After all that you put him on the third line? He's already better than anyone on the Gophers.

Kessel will be on one of the top two lines next year. No doubt about that. He is already a bigger offensive threat than anybody on the current Gopher team and that is saying something when you have a couple of guys like Irmen and Potulny. They didn't recruit him as hard as they did so he could play on a 3rd or 4th line. I don't care how much Lucia rolls lines, Kessel will see more ice time than just about anybody on that team next year and he will be playing on a top line.