Kessel closing gap on Crosby?

[NYR469]

first off i think we can split hairs over them all day long but the bottom line is they are both awesome prospects and i can't wait to see both in the nhl in a few years...

as far as 'closing the gap' goes, i think that from a purely offensive skill point of view, kessel has closed the game. but crosby remains a much more well-rounded player, he is stronger and better in his own zone...

but kessel has a full year till his draft so he has time to improve those areas and heading to minnesota next year i think that will help him in those areas big time. no matter how hyped he is, lucia isn't going to give him ice time if he floats around and doesn't backcheck so i expect him to be a much more well-rounded player at this time next year and then maybe we can say that he has really closed the gap to being at a similar point when being drafted.

 

[NYR469]

If Gretzky didn't say ''Crosby could break some of my records'' in the summer of 2003, Crosby wouldn't be as hyped. It's as simple as that.

obviously gretzky's comments added to the hype but 1)there was already a ton of hype based on his play long before that so it might have added to it, it didn't create it. and 2)gretzky didn't just randomly select a player to make that comment about, he said it about crosby because he thinks that sid is THAT good. this isn't random people on message boards making comparisions, this is wayne gretzky saying that he thinks the kid could break his records and if anything imo that should raise the question 'maybe the hype is deserved?'

and in similar fashion we could say that kessel wouldn't be as hyped if he didn't put on a show at the WJC during a nationally televised game...if he struggled like most kids that age do at the WJC or simply had a bad game that night then there would be alot less talk about him too...

 

[sonnytheman]

Crosby has done nothing that Daigle, Perrault, Barrie, etc.....countless others haven't done, yet have gone on to be busts.

Huh? Are you saying he didn't break the 16-year old scoring record in the Q? Are you saying that he wasn't the first 16-year old to lead the league in scoring? Are you saying that he wasn't the first player in a long time to lead the Q in scoring by over 50 points? Because none of those players you mentioned have ever done that.....

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Kessell has an incredible arsenal of shots. He's also a very good stickhandler. He's incredibly fast, has quick acceleration and do all of the above at top speed. He ain't a bad passer and his hockey sense looks good but that's where Crosby sets himself apart.

Crosby's hockey sense and passing is better than any other juniors out there and better than most NHLers. Crosby's also much much stronger on his skates and he is unbelievable along the boards, I swear he wins 99% of his battles along the board. It's underated part of his game. He's also a much better player away from the puck and he seems to play with more energy out there, but that's from limited viewing of Kessell. Because of that Crosby becomes a coach's dream. He will be able to adapt to any system out there and won't be a liability early in his NHL career as his game is very mature. Kessell will probably have more difficulties making the jump and adaptating his game to the higher leagues.

But skating and shooting are two of the most useful assets a player can have. Many guys have made a career out of being awesome in one or both categories. Kessell seems to have plenty of both and projects to be a much better goal scorer than Crosby. Whose arsenal of shot seem a little weak. Definately an area I hope he improves on a lot. But with hockey sense, and being in the right place at the right times you can score a lot of goals too. It's all going to come down to who puts it all together the best at the NHL level.

That being said they're very different players who're both going to have a major impact in the NHL. Right now I'd take Crosby, but let's see what Kessell does next year. I hope to see both at the WJ U20s.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Huh? Are you saying he didn't break the 16-year old scoring record in the Q? Are you saying that he wasn't the first 16-year old to lead the league in scoring? Are you saying that he wasn't the first player in a long time to lead the Q in scoring by over 50 points? Because none of those players you mentioned have ever done that.....

None have ever been the CHL mvp at 16 either (and probably at 17 too).

 

[Nich]

crosby is ahead of kessel by far....but kessel is the #1 pick in that draft class.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

This is a very spirited discussion. Too bad nationalism tends to creep into the dialogue.

These are two very, very good prospects and both appear headed for long, productive NHL careers. However, I have to give the nod to Sydney Crosby. There has simply never been a prospect make this kind of impact in the CHL. To lead all three Canadian Junior Leagues in scoring at 16 is unbelievable. To go out and do it again at 17 is amazing. Statistically speaking, the CHL is still the number one development pipeline to the NHL and to see these results at such an early age against 16-20 year olds puts Crosby at the front of the line.

That being said, I really like Kessel. From my limited viewings, he is the best American prospect since I watched a 16 year old Mike Modano toil in the WHL. If eligible this year, I have no doubt Kessel would be the number two pick. He has elite offensive skills and looked very impressive at the World Junior tourny against older competition. He dominated at the Under 18's. But at this stage, he can't match the results Crosby has put up.

I really like both players. They give me hope for the NHL's future ... if and when they begin playing again and improve the current onice product to promote skill and talent instead of the current brand of trench warfare.

 

[Legionnaire]

My thoughts: As good as Kessel is, Crosby is on a whole different level.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Personally I lik Frolik's game much better then Kessel. I don't dislike Kessel but I feel his natural attributes allow him to dominate at this age and possible in college but as he moves up in leagues his skills won't give him the clear advantage.

 

[pei fan]

This is Pejorative Slured. Crosby has done nothing that Daigle, Perrault, Barrie, etc.....countless others haven't done, yet have gone on to be busts. It's a joke.

I agree with you if you mean your own statement is Pejorative Slured.I suspect you are
referring to Len Barrie who scored 3 pts. as a 16 year old in the chl(whl) and 39pts.
as a 17 year old.He was passed over in his first year of draft eligibility and was
selected 124th overall after his 3rd year in the chl.He never made an all star team until his 5th year in the chl as a 20 year old.

Yanic Perrault-played his first year in the Q as a 17 year old and was not named to any all star team in the Q in that year nor the next year as an 18 year old.He
was passed over the first 2 years he was draft eligible and was selected 47th
overall in his 3rd year of draft eligibility.

Alexandre Daigle-As a 16/17 year old he made the 2nd all star team in the q.
As a 17/18 year old he made the 1st all star team in the q.He was never Q
player of the year forget the chl player of the year.Yes he had good credentials
but nothing compared to Crosby.Although Daigle was an offensive star he was not
anywhere near the offensive star Sidney was and his defense was considered very
suspect.

Countless others-NO other player in history has won back to back CHL player of
the year (Sidney is a lock) and i'm pretty sure no other player has won back to
back CHL scoring titles -and friend that includes 18,19 ,20 year olds every single
player to play in the CHL(countless others indeed).

"Crosby has done nothing..........."- no that is not a joke,it is a Pejorative Slured statement.

 

[Schlep Rock]

I'm glad you understand.
Crosby is the best 17 year old hockey player playing now.
Kessel is a 17 year old hockey player (less than 2 months age diff.).
Crosby is Kessel's benchmark.

Based on your "math" then Daigle is Crosby's benchmark (when Daigle was 17).

Daigle = 137 points
Crosby = 168 points

Crosby had 13% more points than "The Next Great One" did in the 'Q' so with Alexander's career high of 51 points in the NHL, based on how you are figuring things out Crosby will max out at 13% higher than that (58 points).

You are probably laughing now because of how stupid this post looks but it's simply proving that Crosby should not be the bench mark for ANYBODY right now in terms of professional hockey. Everybody is discussing Crosby and Kessel as PRO hockey players and their potential at the NHL level so using Crosby as Kessel's "bench mark" for future success can't be done.

As many have proven, junior success usually means squat once you reach the next level. Brad Richards had 186 points in his final QMJHL season while Alex Tanguay only had 61 and both were in the top-10 in scoring last year in the NHL (they tied for "9th" with 79).

Let's do a little "study"... QMJHL 1999-00 scoring leaders
1. Brad Richards (186)
2. Ramzi Abid (158)
3. Simon Gamache (143)
4. Benoit Dusablon (135)
5. Marc-Andre Thinel (132)
6. Jonathan Roy (125)
7. Carl Mallette (125)
8. Brandon Reid (124)
9. Dominic Forget (116)
10. Jerome Tremblay (116)

And now onto their 03-04 status (have to utilize the NHL)
1. Richards (64th overall in '98) - NHL (Tampa Bay) [Top-10 Scoring]
2. Abid (28th overall in '98; 85th overall in '00) - NHL (Pittsburgh) [16 games played, 5 points]
3. Gamache (290th overall in '00) - AHL (Milwaukee) [11 NHL GP, 2 points]
4. Dusablon (undrafted) - ECHL, AHL, NHL (NYR system) [3 NHL GP, 0 points]
5. Thinel (145th overall in '99) - ECHL & AHL (Columbus & Hamilton) [42 points in 47 games in ECHL]
6. Roy (undrafted) - 2nd German league [36 points in 40 games]
7. Mallette (107th overall in '00) - 2 ECHL teams (Florida & Roanoke) [71 points in 73 total games] {played for 4 different teams this year}
8. Reid (208th overall in '00) - AHL & NHL (Manitoba & Vancouver) [58 points in 73 GP in AHL & 3 GP and 0 points in Vancouver]
9. Forget (undrafted) - ECHL (Johnstown) [63 points in 72 games]
10. Tremblay (undrafted) - Quebec Senior league [33 points in 46 GP]

My whole point is you can't use a junior player as a bench mark for another junior player WHEN you're trying to calculate pro potential. The reason for the above "study" is to prove if you used previous junior stats as a "bench mark" for a pro prospect, it'd be a rough go since only 1 of the 10 have turned into a regular NHLer.

Even then, Crosby isn't Kessel's junior bench mark because they aren't playing in the same league and their statistics will reflect that. What would Kessel's stats be like in the 'Q'? What would Crosby's be like against Kessel's competition? You can only speculate but if you're using Crosby as Kessel's bench mark you will be completely off in calculating Kessel's future because it's not a fair "bench mark" or "comparison" because when all is said and done, what they accomplished in junior means squat. For every Brad Richards there are 20 others guys with over 100 points (in the Q, OHL, WHL, or wherever) who will not make an impact at the NHL level thus proving accomplishments and stats in juniors are nice but they will NOT, I repeat NOT, determine ones NHL future.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Personally I lik Frolik's game much better then Kessel. I don't dislike Kessel but I feel his natural attributes allow him to dominate at this age and possible in college but as he moves up in leagues his skills won't give him the clear advantage.

How are phenomenal hands and elite speed going to be less of an advantage in the professional ranks?

 

[Schlep Rock]

Alexandre Daigle-As a 16/17 year old he made the 2nd all star team in the q.
As a 17/18 year old he made the 1st all star team in the q.He was never Q
player of the year forget the chl player of the year.Yes he had good credentials
but nothing compared to Crosby.Although Daigle was an offensive star he was not
anywhere near the offensive star Sidney was and his defense was considered very
suspect.

Countless others-NO other player in history has won back to back CHL player of
the year (Sidney is a lock) and i'm pretty sure no other player has won back to
back CHL scoring titles -and friend that includes 18,19 ,20 year olds every single
player to play in the CHL(countless others indeed).

pei fan, I get that you like Crosby and the kid is an AMAZING talent (I agree, he is a better junior player then anybody that is mentioned in this thread) BUT, don't bother citing the "CHL player of the year, etc" because I've read plenty of articles throughout the year on Corey Perry and even Eric Fehr and there was a lot of joking from "sources" saying they stood no chance no matter what numbers Sidney put up all year. Those doing the joking (likely coaches, agents, etc.) were pretty right. Unless Sidney missed a decent chunk of time or for whatever reason put up lackluster numbers, it was his since day one of the season.

Just to add...

Back-to-back CHL scoring titles went to Guy Rouleau (Hull - QMJHL) in '84-85 & '85-86 (163 & 191 points respectively) who then went undrafted and never played an NHL game.

And as my above post says, his junior accomplishments, etc. won't guarantee him any success in the NHL which is what everybody here is discussing. If we were discussing "who is a better junior player" the argument is fine but we are talking about who is the better player in the context of "better player = better NHL prospect"

 

[Schlep Rock]

How are phenomenal hands and elite speed going to be less of an advantage in the professional ranks?

If he was 5' 4" it could be a problem but obviously he isn't.

There are a lot of guys in college hockey that will be "out for him" as there are some filler guys who just don't care and will think of him as a diva and take a run at him. It'll be interesting to see how he handles some of these guys and if he can handle them (sure he can) that'll "toughen him up" for the NHL game.

Kessel is the best American prospect in a very long time and there are some other studs right behind him.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

If he was 5' 4" it could be a problem but obviously he isn't.

There are a lot of guys in college hockey that will be "out for him" as there are some filler guys who just don't care and will think of him as a diva and take a run at him. It'll be interesting to see how he handles some of these guys and if he can handle them (sure he can) that'll "toughen him up" for the NHL game.

Kessel is the best American prospect in a very long time and there are some other studs right behind him.

USA Hockey lists Kessel at 6' 185 lbs. We can argue all we want about the validity of that, but if accurate (or even if it's off by a bit), that isn't that small, especially for a scoring forward. Give him a few more years, and he'll be bigger and stronger. I have no doubt he'll be able to handle the rigors of professional hockey.

 

[Wondercarrot]

don't bother citing the "CHL player of the year, etc" because I've read plenty of articles throughout the year on Corey Perry and even Eric Fehr and there was a lot of joking from "sources" saying they stood no chance no matter what numbers Sidney put up all year. Those doing the joking (likely coaches, agents, etc.) were pretty right. Unless Sidney missed a decent chunk of time or for whatever reason put up lackluster numbers, it was his since day one of the season.

please give me a link to even 1 of the many articles you read. what a pile of BS.

and let me ask you this: how do you know that "Those doing the joking (likely coaches, agents, etc.) were pretty right" that "Unless Sidney missed a decent chunk of time orreason put up lackluster numbers, it was his since day one of the season"

an interesting proposition wouldn't you say? you are claiming that these made up people (sorry "sources") were right even though he did play the entire season, was the best player in te CHl by a mile.

Cool logic break. you claim to be right about an event that never came to pass.

 

[pei fan]

Schlep Rock,I just spent some time schooling Flyer Fan(doing research on Len
Barrie and believe me I had to turnover alot of stones to find something on the
guy )so I don't have alot of time to do research to school you .
But Please Stop comparing 16/17 year olds to 19/20 year olds - there is no logic behind it.
As for Sidney being the only CHL player to win back to back scoring titles I did say
I was pretty sure meaning I wasn't absolutely sure.He's certainly the only 16/17
year old to do it as he was the only 16 year old to win one.

As far as the fix being in for Crosby as player of the year are you saying he
shouldn't get it?

I think you and I have discussed before- does Junior hockey success guarantee
NHl success.Their are only 4 other players in CHl history that dominated at age
16/17 anywhere near the same realm Sidney has and really they come up short.
2 of those players are the 2 greatest players of all time (Gretzky and Orr).Although
the other 2(Lindros and Lafontaine) did not reach their potential they were still
very good NHL players but injury hampered their careers.The fact that a player
wins a scoring title in the chl at age 19 or 20 actually would be an indication he
might not be an NHl success(depending on other factors) as the very best prospects are not playing at those ages especially age 20.If a player can't be
assessed very well at 16/17 why is this years draft order causing chaos among
the GM's.

About the topic please go to the first post- he was comparing them now.

 

[Schlep Rock]

please give me a link to even 1 of the many articles you read. what a pile of BS.

I already spent enough time researching stuff here but when I get a chance I'll certainly do a google news search. Most people here can vouch that I don't "make stuff up" as you are suggesting.

and let me ask you this: how do you know that "Those doing the joking (likely coaches, agents, etc.) were pretty right" that "Unless Sidney missed a decent chunk of time orreason put up lackluster numbers, it was his since day one of the season"

an interesting proposition wouldn't you say? you are claiming that these made up people (sorry "sources") were right even though he did play the entire season, was the best player in te CHl by a mile.

Cool logic break. you claim to be right about an event that never came to pass.

What on EARTH are you talking about? What these people were saying basically is unless he gets injured or puts up lackluster numbers, it's his. Not sure what their definition of lackluster numbers are but I think what they were saying is Perry and Fehr stood no chance even if they had more points than Sidney (for example if Sidney only put up 100 points). I can only infer what I read and like I said, don't accuse me of being a liar or "making stuff up" because as many here can vouch, I don't just "make stuff up".

 

[pei fan]

I already spent enough time researching stuff here but when I get a chance I'll certainly do a google news search. Most people here can vouch that I don't "make stuff up" as you are suggesting.



What on EARTH are you talking about? What these people were saying basically is unless he gets injured or puts up lackluster numbers, it's his. Not sure what their definition of lackluster numbers are but I think what they were saying is Perry and Fehr stood no chance even if they had more points than Sidney (for example if Sidney only put up 100 points). I can only infer what I read and like I said, don't accuse me of being a liar or "making stuff up" because as many here can vouch, I don't just "make stuff up".

I for one would love to see those quotes.I have seen quotes that assumed he
would win CHL player of the year BECAUSE he was head and shoulders the best player in the CHL.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Schlep Rock,I just spent some time schooling Flyer Fan(doing research on Len
Barrie and believe me I had to turnover alot of stones to find something on the
guy )so I don't have alot of time to do research to school you .

pei fan, you won't be schooling me.

But Please Stop comparing 16/17 year olds to 19/20 year olds - there is no logic behind it.

You're the one who said, anybody 16-20

As for Sidney being the only CHL player to win back to back scoring titles I did say
I was pretty sure meaning I wasn't absolutely sure.He's certainly the only 16/17
year old to do it as he was the only 16 year old to win one.

I believe you're 100% right here but to me, doesn't matter what he accomplishes in junior, it's nothing but a resume builder.

As far as the fix being in for Crosby as player of the year are you saying he
shouldn't get it?

I'm not necessarily saying there's a "fix" for Sidney (nor the people in the past articles I've read) simply he'd be the heavy favorite unless something drastic happened. And I do feel he should get it as he was the best CHL player this year. So yeah, stupid that I brought it up I guess

I think you and I have discussed before- does Junior hockey success guarantee
NHl success.Their are only 4 other players in CHl history that dominated at age
16/17 anywhere near the same realm Sidney has and really they come up short.
2 of those players are the 2 greatest players of all time (Gretzky and Orr).Although
the other 2(Lindros and Lafontaine) did not reach their potential they were still
very good NHL players but injury hampered their careers.

If you go simply by point totals, yes. But if you want to really consider that the QMJHL is a higher scoring league than others so let's look at some other leagues for a quick second (spent too much time in this thread already!):
Vitali Yachmenev (as a rookie) had 113 points in the OHL in '93-94 and won ROY
Jeff Friesen (as a 16-year old rookie) had 83 points in the WHL in '92-93 and won ROY [can't argue that historically, the WHL is a stronger league]
Pavel Brendl (as a 17-year old rookie) had 134 points in the WHL in '98-99 and won ROY [FWIW, Brendl's 134 points led the WHL while Mike Ribeiro led the 'Q' w/165 points]
Vinny Lecavalier (as a 16-year old rookie) had 102 points in the QMJHL in '96-97 and won ROY [Vinny's NHL success can be debated, he's never averaged more than 1.0 points/game. He's been solid but if Crosby doesn't average 1.0 points/game most would likely start calling him a "bust"]

So Friesen, Brendl, Yachmenev, and Vinny were all considered dominant in their rookie seasons but the hype that occured in those years might not be matching their NHL success (certainly not Brendl or Yachmenev and w/Frisen he dominated the WHL but is by no means a big time NHLer, he's a very good NHLer but based on the hype that started in Regina, he should be an all-star).

You've certainly got valid argumnets regarding Crosby but I just don't feel you can make him a bench mark for pro potential because I could spend a day researching and presenting facts on how junior success doesn't always lead to pro success.

About the topic please go to the first post- he was comparing them now.

The original post was comparing them today but the thread immediately took a direction towards their pro prospects.

 

[pei fan]

When I'm saying don't compare 16/17 year olds to 19/20 year olds I'm referring
to your comments about Richards etc.

As far as Vinny and others dominating, they only dominated other rookies.Crosby
at 16 dominated EVERY 19/20 year old.

 

[pei fan]

pei fan, you won't be schooling me.

I'm not necessarily saying there's a "fix" for Sidney (nor the people in the past articles I've read) simply he'd be the heavy favorite unless something drastic happened. And I do feel he should get it as he was the best CHL player this year. So yeah, stupid that I brought it up I guess

See, you're wrong about the schooling,you're learning already.

 

[HabLover]

All I can say is I can't wait for the college season to start up with Kessel suiting up for Minnesota! I can't even begin to imagine how good he'll be at the next WJC's!

I will be interested to see how two other 18 yr olds, Andrew Cogliano and Dan Bertram fair in the NCAA next year. Cogliano is one of the most talented '87's in the world right now and will be heading to Michigan. Bertram, who entered the NCAA at 17, which was probably a bit too young, will have a year under his belt and should be very good for Boston College. The kid has great speed and loves to battle in the corners and in front of the net. To a lesser extent, Brock Bradford and Jonathan Toews will be worth following, although Toews will be another 17 yr old entering the NCAA and it will be tough for him to have an impact.

Does anyone know how Michigan, BC and Minnesota will look next year. Are there any early favourites heading into 2005/2006?

 

[Schlep Rock]

See, you're wrong about the schooling,you're learning already.

Where have you "schooled" me?

 

[pei fan]

Where have you "schooled" me?

Can someone else please explain this to him.