Ken King; Flames Ownership no longer pursuing new arena in Calgary

[CorbeauNoir]

I thought Alberta is the Canadian home of free enterprise and self-reliance?

LOL, could you please pass the memo to Rachel and Justin?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Edwards claims the team is not for sale and he's not hopeful an arena is coming anytime soon.
Flames co-owner Murray Edwards says team is not for sale - Sportsnet.ca
Flames co-owner Edwards not optimistic about chances of new arena - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Mightygoose]

Edwards claims the team is not for sale and he's not hopeful an arena is coming anytime soon.
Flames co-owner Murray Edwards says team is not for sale - Sportsnet.ca
Flames co-owner Edwards not optimistic about chances of new arena - Sportsnet.ca

Edwards not optimistic? And I thought the Flames were no longer pursuing a new arena...

 

[Killion]

Edwards not optimistic? And I thought the Flames were no longer pursuing a new arena...

Indeed.... So here we have a double negative spin..... What EXACTLY is he going to do about it if indeed the team isnt 4Sale? What are we supposed to read into the lack of clarity & silence that follows this Brainiacs proclamations? Whatever we want?... Not good enough Edwards, nowhere nearly good enough. Show some respect for your fans, the city, the process.

 

[Ciao]

Indeed.... So here we have a double negative spin..... What EXACTLY is he going to do about it if indeed the team isnt 4Sale? What are we supposed to read into the lack of clarity & silence that follows this Brainiacs proclamations? Whatever we want?... Not good enough Edwards, nowhere nearly good enough. Show some respect for your fans, the city, the process.

He's in the corner, sulking for a while, Killion.

That's what happens when you realize you can't even manipulate a municipal election!

It's like you don't actually belong in the real-estate development business, where changing mayors and councillors is a basic skill set.

 

[Killion]

He's in the corner, sulking for a while, Killion.

That's what happens when you realize you can't even manipulate a municipal election!

It's like you don't actually belong in the real-estate development business, where changing mayors and councillors is a basic skill set.

Exactly Mork. Mssrs Edwards & King need to make a decision thats in the best interests of the club, the city & the fans who have supported them all these years.... namely, that if they cant work with an admittedly left leaning municipal government & leadership, and they cant survive without a new building but cant or wont finance it entirely themselves (and no ones saying a public partnership of some kind thats equitable is off the table on the other side).... while out of the other side of their mouths telling us that the "team is not for sale" then that leaves us with only two possible conclusions to draw does it not?.....

That the team cant/wont be staying in Calgary, not for sale, Relocation or Contraction your only options yes? Apparently "losing it by the yard", losses that just coincidentally Im sure seemed to begin when the glint of a new building first sparkled in their eyes..... If Edwards & Co cant work through the process with Nenshi & Co, then they MUST sell to local interests who can & will be able to do so, put an end to this transparent Brinksmanship, get the Hell out of the way & sell to a group genuinely concerned with the state of play in Cowtown.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

Indeed.... So here we have a double negative spin..... What EXACTLY is he going to do about it if indeed the team isnt 4Sale? What are we supposed to read into the lack of clarity & silence that follows this Brainiacs proclamations? Whatever we want?... Not good enough Edwards, nowhere nearly good enough. Show some respect for your fans, the city, the process.

It's not really that complicated, you just need to add 'yet' to his statement.

 

[muddywaters]

Here is what the rest of Canada has done with publically funded sport arenas and stadiums ... A look at Canadian stadiums built with public funds

 

[Killion]

It's not really that complicated, you just need to add 'yet' to his statement.

Putting words in his mouth? I dont think so. Generally people who do that wind up being committed under the Mental Health Act. Plasticine World. Creating their own figures, characters & narratives. I think whats going on here is a clash of cultures, Old Calgary vs New Calgary. The Hoi Polloi like Edwards & King dont much care for the changing face of the city and its leadership and are flexing their muscles. Edwards statement (and those by others within the organization) taken literally, without adding "yet" can only be interpreted in one way; comply, accede, give us what we demand or we'll take our puck & go elsewhere altogether. Leave.

The team's not 4Sale which closes the door on any local purchase & transfer, nothing to negotiate with the city. There is nothing to negotiate as they've delivered their ultimatum, hit the red button. The civic election indirectly providing the results with the reelection of Nenshi & Company triggering the countdown to Relocation. And now we have a freeze, nuclear winter, absolute zero on the Kelvin Scale when all known matter on the planet ceases to move, function. Negotiations at a stalemate, ball dead... bring in Pinch Hitter Gary Bettman to start taking swings with an ice-pick at the Cities leadership further alienating the elected & the electorate. Classic. Hardball. Sweat them out. Get them to crack, melt. Leave them alone in an interrogation room, put them in solitary confinement for as long as it takes....

... as Ernst Stavro Blofeld said; Extortion is my business. Think it over Gentlemen. I'm busy right now.

 

[MNNumbers]

Putting words in his mouth? I dont think so. Generally people who do that wind up being committed under the Mental Health Act. Plasticine World. Creating their own figures, characters & narratives. I think whats going on here is a clash of cultures, Old Calgary vs New Calgary. The Hoi Polloi like Edwards & King dont much care for the changing face of the city and its leadership and are flexing their muscles. Edwards statement (and those by others within the organization) taken literally, without adding "yet" can only be interpreted in one way; comply, accede, give us what we demand or we'll take our puck & go elsewhere altogether. Leave.

The team's not 4Sale which closes the door on any local purchase & transfer, nothing to negotiate with the city. There is nothing to negotiate as they've delivered their ultimatum, hit the red button. The civic election indirectly providing the results with the reelection of Nenshi & Company triggering the countdown to Relocation. And now we have a freeze, nuclear winter, absolute zero on the Kelvin Scale when all known matter on the planet ceases to move, function. Negotiations at a stalemate, ball dead... bring in Pinch Hitter Gary Bettman to start taking swings with an ice-pick at the Cities leadership further alienating the elected & the electorate. Classic. Hardball. Sweat them out. Get them to crack, melt. Leave them alone in an interrogation room, put them in solitary confinement for as long as it takes....

... as Ernst Stavro Blofeld said; Extortion is my business. Think it over Gentlemen. I'm busy right now.

Thing is, Killion....

Of course Edwards has the right to move wherever he wants, and the league can't stop him. (on a side not, I am not sure that the league could really stop Dundon either, in spite of his supposed "no-relocation" clause). But, where is Edwards going to move?

He can't make money renting in Seattle (after the arena is done). He can't make money renting in Houston (and Fertitta isn't going to let him do anything else). He can't make money renting in QC (although that's quite a picture, methinks....)

So, the threat has to be.....I'll relocate myself (and no one can stop me). Then, after a year or so, I'll sell, and just let the league try to stand in the way of that. The relocation will already be a a fait accompli, and so there won't be anything they can really do then, either.

 

[muddywaters]

Thing is, Killion....

Of course Edwards has the right to move wherever he wants, and the league can't stop him. (on a side not, I am not sure that the league could really stop Dundon either, in spite of his supposed "no-relocation" clause). But, where is Edwards going to move?

Tsuu T'ina Nation ???

 

[Killion]

Thing is, Killion....

Of course Edwards has the right to move wherever he wants, and the league can't stop him. (on a side not, I am not sure that the league could really stop Dundon either, in spite of his supposed "no-relocation" clause). But, where is Edwards going to move?

He can't make money renting in Seattle (after the arena is done). He can't make money renting in Houston (and Fertitta isn't going to let him do anything else). He can't make money renting in QC (although that's quite a picture, methinks....)

So, the threat has to be.....I'll relocate myself (and no one can stop me). Then, after a year or so, I'll sell, and just let the league try to stand in the way of that. The relocation will already be a a fait accompli, and so there won't be anything they can really do then, either.

Given the price of franchises in even challenged markets, and here you have what was until recently a borderline Top 10 and in Canada (albeit on the smaller side) with a 35+ year history including a Cup, one of Hockey's Heartlands, well, just how much do you think they'd be asking IF they were to sell it to local (or non-local) investors who would then as well be looking at contributing at least another $250M++ for a building? $500M wont get you that team. $700M?. $750M?. $800M? Dunno but its gonna be up there. So now your looking at near on $1Billion and your not even "all-in" at that. The Merry-Go-Round has been engaged, levers been pulled.

Same thing we saw in North Carolina only even more complex & expensive as these guys have stated "clubs not for sale".... And the question which is perfectly reasonable; would the NHL be complicit, facilitate & enable them to either move with the club to wherever or would they insist that they try & sell locally which in & of itself could be wholly compromised. Disingenuous. Asking price beyond the reach of anything less than either a major blue chip corporation or someone with more money than God?... Maybe like Karmanos King, Edwards & Co sell a 49% stake in the club to Fertitta, move to Houston. Give him first right of refusal on their 51% within 3-5yrs.

Anythings possible. I dont see the NHL standing up for the City of Calgary or the fans. Quite the opposite in fact. The Attack Dog is already barking, snarling, though remains leashed for now. I do see the NHL facilitating & enabling ownership to do whats best for them, to monetize the value of the franchise as much as they can & if that means moving, allowing a sale for Relo or moving it themselves to a larger market they'll do so. Smaller markets are expendable. Lets not kid ourselves. Has absolutely nothing to do with Canada vs the US or anything of the kind. Forget the Border even exists. Irrelevant. Market size, price, boosting franchise valuations top to bottom... thats what matters. Smaller markets you always have a ceiling. Large markets not so much & you can sell the sizzle of "potential" through leaner times, start-up.

 

[BJNT]

What’s to stop them from relocating the team to say Houston for example and later on sale to team to Fertitta?

 

[Killion]

What’s to stop them from relocating the team to say Houston for example and later on sale to team to Fertitta?

Thats one possibility as I & others have mentioned including how it could all play out IF theres no thawing in the relationship between the Flames & Calgary City Council. The other aspect to this which its absolutely worth considering given the Playbook from which major league sports teams operate is that "maybe, just maybe" (SPECULATION here folks) is that Edwards, King & Company along with the NHL have already decided that the situation in Calgary with Nenshi et al is so completely broken that theyve already decided to get out of town. Have already set things in motion elsewhere.

A contingency plan in place before issuing final ultimatums to the City of Calgary which they dont expect will be met with compliance, agreement. Or maybe they do find agreement in principal but like Karmanos in dealing with Hartford the Flames just keep on demanding more beyond the initial agreement as the decision to move has already been made, the only way they stay is with an agreement that is pretty much carte-blanche. City pays for the whole ding dang shootin match & then some in perpetuity & thats that "or else". Again, total speculation on my part but having followed this leagues business dealings, modus operandi, it wouldnt surprise me.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

Putting words in his mouth? I dont think so. Generally people who do that wind up being committed under the Mental Health Act. Plasticine World. Creating their own figures, characters & narratives. I think whats going on here is a clash of cultures, Old Calgary vs New Calgary. The Hoi Polloi like Edwards & King dont much care for the changing face of the city and its leadership and are flexing their muscles. Edwards statement (and those by others within the organization) taken literally, without adding "yet" can only be interpreted in one way; comply, accede, give us what we demand or we'll take our puck & go elsewhere altogether. Leave.

The team's not 4Sale which closes the door on any local purchase & transfer, nothing to negotiate with the city. There is nothing to negotiate as they've delivered their ultimatum, hit the red button. The civic election indirectly providing the results with the reelection of Nenshi & Company triggering the countdown to Relocation. And now we have a freeze, nuclear winter, absolute zero on the Kelvin Scale when all known matter on the planet ceases to move, function. Negotiations at a stalemate, ball dead... bring in Pinch Hitter Gary Bettman to start taking swings with an ice-pick at the Cities leadership further alienating the elected & the electorate. Classic. Hardball. Sweat them out. Get them to crack, melt. Leave them alone in an interrogation room, put them in solitary confinement for as long as it takes....

... as Ernst Stavro Blofeld said; Extortion is my business. Think it over Gentlemen. I'm busy right now.

Occam's Razor. You're overthinking it way, way, way too much. I'm not even sure what you're getting at at this point since the bolded is just another way of saying, yes there is actually an implicit 'yet' to be added to what he's saying.

QC wasn't for sale, until the moment it crossed the cost-profit line the FO no doubt projected years previously. Then, suddenly, overnight, it was gone. Phoenix was guaranteed by everyone to be leaving for Winnipeg. Then, suddenly, overnight, Atlanta was gone instead. We have objective precedent for this kind of thing happening

 

[Killion]

Occam's Razor. You're overthinking it way, way, way too much. I'm not even sure what you're getting at at this point since the bolded is just another way of saying, yes there is actually an implicit 'yet' to be added to what he's saying.

QC wasn't for sale, until the moment it crossed the cost-profit line the FO no doubt projected years previously. Then, suddenly, overnight, it was gone. Phoenix was guaranteed by everyone to be leaving for Winnipeg. Then, suddenly, overnight, Atlanta was gone instead. We have objective precedent for this kind of thing happening

.... I get accused of that a lot around here, elsewhere, everywhere but I assure you no, not so much. Just sharing fleeting thoughts. If I really went deep pretty sure a good case for you thinking I'm certifiable.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant with "yet"?... See, I dont speak "cryptic". "Yet"? Yet? Thats like "when will you be here" and the person answers "soon" or you ask "what time is it"? and get a reply "morning". I want some straight answers Councillor. None a this "to be forthcoming" or "soon" or "he hasnt yet finished his statement" as if were to wait breathlessly for whomever to finish said statement days, weeks or months later.

And no, your over-thinking when it comes to QC, giving far too much credit to the sexually predatory & rapacious Marcel Aubut, who doesnt think with his brain, relying on another part of his anatomy for that which is much farther south. A political animal looking for instant gratification, money for nothing & chicks for free. He couldnt get that out of Quebec City or the province and so ya, overnight he betrays his spouse without conscience... never had one to begin with so theres that.

Finally... you really want me to get into that unseemly & sleazy Arizona-Atlanta-Winnipeg menage a trois?... I dont think so CorbeauNoir. Lets just say we have a different perspective on how that all played out & agree to disagree.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^ Who you callin’ sleazy there fellah???

 

[Killion]

^^^ Who you callin’ sleazy there fellah???

... the entire collection actually. Ellman, Moyes, Balsillie, Rodier, Bettman, Daly, the COG & ASG.

 

[TheLegend]

... the entire collection actually. Ellman, Moyes, Balsillie, Rodier, Bettman, Daly, the COG & ASG.

Ahhhh yeah that bunch.

 

[muddywaters]

Houston rumor .... Corbella: Seattle's SuperSonic loss holds lessons for Calgary

 

[Headshot77]

Houston rumor .... Corbella: Seattle's SuperSonic loss holds lessons for Calgary

The problem is, the reason the Seattle Sonics left was because the city had unreasonable demands, and took too long to adequately update their arena. Calgary city council presented a fair plan, IMO, where the Flames were only on the hook for 1/3rd of the costs, and didn't have to make and infrastructure improvements to the new arena. The Seattle Sonics would have killed for that kind of deal back then.

 

[gstommylee]

The problem is, the reason the Seattle Sonics left was because the city had unreasonable demands, and took too long to adequately update their arena. Calgary city council presented a fair plan, IMO, where the Flames were only on the hook for 1/3rd of the costs, and didn't have to make and infrastructure improvements to the new arena. The Seattle Sonics would have killed for that kind of deal back then.

That's not why the team left. Bennett was intentionally not wanting to make any reasonable arena deals. He wanted to built an arena in Renton in which he doesn't own the land and didn't want to pay a single penny off it and wanted to use someone else money knowing it wasn't gonna happen.

 

[Mightygoose]

Houston rumor .... Corbella: Seattle's SuperSonic loss holds lessons for Calgary

This 'rumour' in this article is a hyperlink to the below article from November 16.

NHL hockey in Houston? Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta cautiously floats the idea | Toronto Star

Doesn't make mention to the Flames or any specific team to Houston. Just Fertitta's interest in general.

 

[powerstuck]

That's not why the team left. Bennett was intentionally not wanting to make any reasonable arena deals. He wanted to built an arena in Renton in which he doesn't own the land and didn't want to pay a single penny off it and wanted to use someone else money knowing it wasn't gonna happen.

Sounds quite a lot like what Edwards is doing in Calgary.
Wants the arena in a specific spot without wanting to pay for ground cleaning and doesn't want to own the place but wants it rent free and with all revenues in his pocket (hint : it ain't happening).

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Here is what the rest of Canada has done with publically funded sport arenas and stadiums ... A look at Canadian stadiums built with public funds

In a few cases (ie. IGF and Mosaic) a portion of the funding is to be paid back.

What is the point of posting that link anyways? Is it to justify massive public expenditures by the city of Calgary for a new arena? The city of Calgary is willing to pay for a third of the new arena - $187 million, have a third paid through a ticket tax (of which they will provide the loan up front with no interest of $187 million) which is similar to what is happening in Regina with Mosaic Stadium and a third paid for by the Flames ownership group - $187 million. Seems like the city is being pretty generous!