Ken King; Flames Ownership no longer pursuing new arena in Calgary

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Cor, Sep 12, 2017.

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  1. CanCHI

    CanCHI Registered User

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    Katz was a die hard oilers fan who grew up with the boys on the bus his words. Not even close to comparable.
     
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  2. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    In the least Edwards businesses alone will keep him vested here ...
     
  3. CanCHI

    CanCHI Registered User

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    All I am saying is don't be surprised if the city is really going to not shell out the money for a new arena, that he will move the team. I don't see the personal connection between him and the city. He already wants the city to pony up the cash
     
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  4. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    Because arena building is not profitable for anybody , that is why it needs to be a partnership ... Nenshi knows this but is willing to pony up tax money for an Olympic 16 day party that I believe is less of a benefit to this city than an arena and stadium that will culturally enhance this city for the next thirty years ..... the money is there and it is insulting and hilarious in what this man is getting away with ...
     
  5. CanCHI

    CanCHI Registered User

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    Which one? The elected mayor of the city? Or the businessman who wants tax dollars to build an arena yet moved over seas to avoid those same taxes?
     
  6. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    He wants to build the arena here , not over seas , and his businesses pay taxes here , not over seas .....
     
  7. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    edit: personal taxes over 150,000 pounds are lower in the UK so a move to London does save Edwards money....
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 7:32 AM
  8. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    Has there been any recent word, or new developments?

    My latest recollection is:

    CalgaryNEXT is dead.

    I forget the details, but Calgary city is not willing to contribute as much as Edwards and King would like, so the Flames are not pursuing any negotiations right now (and this has been since before Nenshi was re-elected)

    Quick synopsis with ball park figures would be appreciated.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    How is this the cities fault. Calgary has a large corporate sector. There should be enough money to build the arena if it is for 350 million. But that's not what the flames want, so we are here.
     
  10. Mightygoose

    Mightygoose Registered User

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    The short-ish form

    CalgaryNEXT is not 'officially' dead. It's been out on the back burner while the city and Flames look at Victoria Park.

    Latest City offer: 555.00 million. Arena to be team owned. Figures include cost of the arena: 500.00 million, land: 30 million and Saddledome demolition: 25 million. 1 third to the paid by the Flames, one third by a ticket surcharge and one third by the city. The city portion to be paid back by the Flames via property tax since it would be team owned.

    Flames issue: The ticket surcharge is considered Flames revenue since it applies to the cost of tickets and it's not a tax. Also, property tax is paid from Flames revenue over time so the team would be paying 100% of the cost. Plus they would be paying for the cost of the Saddledome demolition (city asset) and paying for the land which they don't really want per their proposal.

    Latest Team offer: 500.00 million. Arena to be owned by the city, hence no property tax and no cost of land factored in. Saddledome demolition not factored in since it's a city owned building and can he used for other non-competing purposes.
    Breakdown is team pays about half, but unclear how they pay it. Likely through naming right, ticket surcharge and rent to the city. City pays roughly half and would be paid back via a CRL in the area. Therefore, it's not paid from existing taxes.

    City issue: The money collected via the CRL is earmarked for other projects and it wouldn't generate enough to cover what the team wants. Also, the team wants to the city to pay for security at events and fund transit for event dates (might be just for Flames games...not sure there)...

    The public flight started after Nenshi unveiled his 'vision' for the East Village/Victoria Park with the arena right before the election got started, while the funding was still outstanding. Team took issue with him bringing the arena into the election so the Flames (and Bettman) respond....by doing the exact same thing.

    Political make up is largely unchanged so here we are today.
     
  11. cheswick

    cheswick Non-registered User

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    What a completely non-sense argument. Everyone pays property tax. So if the city gave me $100k, they really wouldn't be giving me anything cause they would get it back eventually from taxes I pay. ok there.
     
  12. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    This is exactly the reason that the model that all sports leagues want is:

    City builds arena
    City owns arena
    Team 'manages' arena
    City pays team to 'manage' arena
    Team gets all revenue sources

    In other words, the teams want everything. Tell them they can't have it, and they are not happy.


    Basically, from what's written above, this is what is agreed on:
    The cost will be 550M.

    After that, the city offers:
    1/3 from city
    1/3 from team
    1/3 from users (all users, not just hockey, I assume)
    And, the team owns it, so they pay property tax

    Team offers:
    First, city will own. So, all land, demo, etc are not factored in. Immediately, that means:
    City pays 50M up front.
    After that,
    1/2 city
    1/2 team
    Team contribution is not "Up front" but relies on Naming Rights, etc.... In other words:
    City pays it all, and team pays some back over time.

    So, the HUGE differences here are:
    How much the Flames will pay?
    When will they pay it?

    I like the city's negotiating stance here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  13. Mike Jones

    Mike Jones Registered User

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    In a proposal published in the Globe and Mail (And for some reason NOT reported in Calgary media) the Flames didn't want to pay any property taxes to the city.

    (I offered a link to this article earlier in the thread)

    It kills me that a group wants to privately fund a $600 project in Seattle yet the poor dears who own the local Flames don't want to pay $550 million or so to build a new arena. I don't blame the city for playing hardball. I don't pay taxes to help billionaires get rich off projects they can easily pay for themselves.
     
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  14. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    Calgary is not comparable to Seattle .... Seattle has three times the population of Calgary ....
     
  15. Mike Jones

    Mike Jones Registered User

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    Apples and oranges. I don't think it's a question of comparing city sizes but assessing two different groups' willingness to properly fund a project from which they will be greatly profiting. A private group is funding the Seattle project and not the city itself. Here in Calgary a private group should be fully funding our arena project as well.
     
  16. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    This is how its works in your city .... Winnipeg pro sports franchises in line for $15.2M score in 2017
     
  17. Oilers Propagandist

    Oilers Propagandist Registered User

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    Katz is an Oilers fan boy, it is why wackT and Lowe were hired way past their due date. Dont worry about him lol.
     
  18. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    Size does matter ..... Seattle GDP 330 billion .... Seattle metro area - GDP 2016 | Statistic ..... Calgary GDP 115 billion .... Calgary Economic Indicators | Calgary Economic Development ....
     
  19. Mike Jones

    Mike Jones Registered User

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    In some cases I imagine it does but in terms of hockey I'd suggest that Calgary is the more lucrative and developed market and an arena investment would be more profitable here. If I'm a group looking to build an arena for hockey with private funding I'd look at Calgary. Seattle makes sense if the group is looking to attract both NHL and NBA (Which is what they are probably trying to do).
     
  20. muddywaters

    muddywaters GO FLAMES GO !!!!!

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    Size doesn't matter when it comes to cost of building .... Size matters when it comes to generating revenue from ....
     
  21. Mike Jones

    Mike Jones Registered User

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    Not really - revenue is generated when you attract paying customers into your building. Building a fan base contributes to this. In terms of NHL hockey Calgary has the larger fan base right now. Given their revenue and potential profit there the ones who should be paying for their own arena.
     
  22. Areid1990

    Areid1990 Registered User

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    Phoenix has like the 10th or 12 biggest metro in the US and how are they doing financially?
     
  23. Llama19

    Llama19 Registered User

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  24. Killion

    Killion Global Moderator

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    .... :laugh: pretty much this unfortunately... and have lost, losing weight rapidly just like the meme. In need of a new wardrobe.... Nothing really groovy when your headed towards homelessness having torched your own residence & completely alienated your Landlords.... not unless your a Junky on a Heroin diet, tragically hip...
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 11:05 AM
  25. snipetype

    snipetype Registered User

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    mureay Edwards is just great at bluffing.

    Moving the team from
    Calgary would cost him hundreds of millions. He’s not that stupid.

    Also, it’s not just his decision, it’s the NHLs as they have to approve a relocation/set relocation fee. Good luck getting the other owners to move a profitable venture to some market in the USA that’s going to suck hundreds of millions of dollars before it turns profitable (if it ever does).

    Not to mention the Flames get more views on TV per game then the Rangers... or any American team for that matter.
     
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