Ken Holland is Flailing

[Redder Winger]

Holland: Becoming elite starts at the draft for the Red Wings

He sounds desperate.

Click to read more...

 

[Redder Winger]

By the way...
the new Red Wings standard is:
"We want to play meaningful games in March."
What the f***?

 

[Ezekial]

It sounds like a verbatim assessment from the December 5th interview except for the 3 minutes he talks about Babcock repeating the same things 5 times.

That's what stuck out to me though, it's not even about making the playoffs, his goal posts moved to competing for a spot in March is good enough.

 

[Pavels Dog]

By the way...
the new Red Wings standard is:
"We want to play meaningful games in March."
What the ****?

Explain? What’s wrong with that ambition?

What parts sound desperate or flailing?

I hear a standard interview where Holland talks about the realities of building through the draft. What bothers you so much?

 

[Goalie guy]

Explain? What’s wrong with that ambition?

What parts sound desperate or flailing?

I hear a standard interview where Holland talks about the realities of building through the draft. What bothers you so much?

Well seeing as how we are not playing meaningful games in Dec is a start lol.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

If you play meaningful games in March your chances of getting meaningful talent in June is that much smaller. They're keeping up an illusion of playing 'meaningful hockey' at the price of halting any meaningful progress on the rebuilding front. I guess it would look pretty bad if your brand new arena was empty 6 months in..

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

yadda yadda yadda

 

[Lampedampe]

Are these whiny threads becoming a weekly thing for you?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

If Ken Holland is still the GM of the Wings next season, folks should boycott the team. Absolutely nothing to look forward to until he is gone.

 

[HIFE]

It sounds like a verbatim assessment from the December 5th interview except for the 3 minutes he talks about Babcock repeating the same things 5 times.

That's what stuck out to me though, it's not even about making the playoffs, his goal posts moved to competing for a spot in March is good enough.

Good pick up, that's kind of sad. The end of last season he made mention of building to compete for a SC but haven't that reiterated in a while. Contrary to the opinions of a few people I think the statements made to the fans are somewhat important.

I'm more curious about the lack of desperation from Holland. He's saying nothing new than a year ago. Build through the draft, integrate young players. I disagree that the roster can't be overturned in 12-18 months. Holland said 3-4 years but that's by sitting on your hands 364 days after the draft. What he means is moves can't be made without looking like an idiot.

In the spring of 2014 Shanahan was brought in as President of the TML to evaluate and oversee all operations of their team. Within a year he fired two coaches, GM Nonis, an assitant GM, the VP, head of pro scouting (including 18 scouts), and head of player development. By February 2016 they had trader their top scorer Kessel and finally Dion Phaneuf. Now that's scorched earth!

My question, is there anyone respected enough to take over Chris Illich's position as President? Others have said the Wings desperately need an outsider to take the reigns. A new plan to push the rebuild towards being a contender into gear. Someone who can clearly evaluate the vision of Holland and Martin. Get a fresh perspective on the job Howe, Wright, Fischer, and Horcoff are doing. Fisher was a great player but is he the best individual available as Director of Player Evaluation?

It's obvious we have some significant deficiencies within hockey operations. IMO Ken Holland moving upstairs to a senior advisory role is not the answer to returning the Wings to greatness.

 

[Shaman464]

A week ago I was called out for saying that all evidence pointed to Ken Holland still believing this team could make the playoffs, and here we are a week later and he explicitly says he still thinks this team can compete for a playoff spot. I'll say it again; Ken Holland's marching orders this season was and still is to make the playoffs at all costs. So we will continue to see conservative hockey, playing the vets for huge minutes and 3 point games.

 

[Redder Winger]

Explain? What’s wrong with that ambition?

What parts sound desperate or flailing?

I hear a standard interview where Holland talks about the realities of building through the draft. What bothers you so much?

The exasperation in his voice.
He might be the only man in the NHL who doesn't understand where the Wings are.
His delusions inform many of his worst decisions.

And since when did "playing meaningful games in March" become anything to shoot for?

How can you have such low goals yet still need 15-20 games to understand where you are?

 

[Ezekial]

edit : nm it's been conveyed fine.

 

[Claypool]

There was nothing wrong with what he said in the interview. You people are crazy.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

This quote has been making its rounds lately, but it works just as well here:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

- Upton Sinclair

 

[Leadzedder]

Everything about this thread is f***ing junk.

 

[Dotter]

Here's the bullet points of the interview:
(***) in brackets is my take-

• Wants the team to play competitive hockey (*of course!)

• Wants to play games in March that are meaningful (*Don't want the players to learn bad habits)

• Elite teams happen through the draft (*Agreed! Not sure why people worry about the salary cap and contracts right now?)

• It Happens slowly - continue to move younger players into the team (*Just as he's been doing all along, filter young players in)

• Young players need to get adjusted to the game/league and experience (*Goes without saying. Look no further than Oilers and Sabres to see how it ruins a hockey club)

• You don't turn over a roster in 12 months (*Over the course of the next 4 years, 16 UFA contracts come off the books - He's going to keep injecting young players in)

• You turn over a roster in 3 to 4 seasons (*See above - 16 contracts coming off the books - You don't firesale, it ruins the young kids)

• Looking around the league at other teams, elite teams don't become elite in a year or two, it is a slow process (*Yes. It is proven to take 8+ years if everything goes right. 10 to 15 if you don't get a little luck)

Good interview. He said we are rebuilding without directly saying we are rebuilding.

 

[Henkka]

I hear a standard interview where Holland talks about the realities of building through the draft. What bothers you so much?

Pretty much.

And he also says, that the roster turnaround is gonna take probably 3-4 years. Guess how long our contracts for most of the veterans are?

3-5 years.

Good interview. He said we are rebuilding without directly saying we are rebuilding.

You NAILED it better than anybody, ever, anywhere.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Henkka and his #stealthtank

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Holland: Becoming elite starts at the draft for the Red Wings

He sounds desperate.

"My hope was that comes March we would be in the hunt for a playoff spot"

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Here's the bullet points of the interview:
(***) in brackets is my take-

• Wants the team to play competitive hockey (*of course!)

• Wants to play games in March that are meaningful (*Don't want the players to learn bad habits)

• Elite teams happen through the draft (*Agreed! Not sure why people worry about the salary cap and contracts right now?)

• It Happens slowly - continue to move younger players into the team (*Just as he's been doing all along, filter young players in)

• Young players need to get adjusted to the game/league and experience (*Goes without saying. Look no further than Oilers and Sabres to see how it ruins a hockey club)

• You don't turn over a roster in 12 months (*Over the course of the next 4 years, 16 UFA contracts come off the books - He's going to keep injecting young players in)

• You turn over a roster in 3 to 4 seasons (*See above - 16 contracts coming off the books - You don't firesale, it ruins the young kids)

• Looking around the league at other teams, elite teams don't become elite in a year or two, it is a slow process (*Yes. It is proven to take 8+ years if everything goes right. 10 to 15 if you don't get a little luck)

Good interview. He said we are rebuilding without directly saying we are rebuilding.

Agree! And everyone thinks Ken is done after this year... I doubt it!

 

[Red Stanley]

By the way...
the new Red Wings standard is:
"We want to play meaningful games in March."
What the ****?

Bullshit police to the rescue.

Here's the actual quote:
Interviewer: I'm curious to know what were the conversations like at the beginning of the year? What were you guys saying about this team ... expectations for this team and then how would you explain where you're at now?
Holland: Before this season my hope was that in the months of March that we would be, for lack of better words, I guess relevant in the playoff race and that we ... last year obviously we unloaded at the TDL. We were far enough back that (we/I) made a decision to unload. The hope was that we would be in the hunt ... as we speak today we're obviously 4 pts out of the third place in our division and I think we're 7 pts out of the second wild card, so we were sort of in the hunt until this stretch where we won one game in our last 11.

I highlighted the part you misquoted. I know others may not be willing/have the time to do their own research, so for the sake of clarity and to avoid an avalanche or misinformed followup posts that happen way too often, stop making shit up. Thanks.

 

[Winger98]

Good pick up, that's kind of sad. The end of last season he made mention of building to compete for a SC but haven't that reiterated in a while. Contrary to the opinions of a few people I think the statements made to the fans are somewhat important.

I'm more curious about the lack of desperation from Holland. He's saying nothing new than a year ago. Build through the draft, integrate young players. I disagree that the roster can't be overturned in 12-18 months. Holland said 3-4 years but that's by sitting on your hands 364 days after the draft. What he means is moves can't be made without looking like an idiot.

In the spring of 2014 Shanahan was brought in as President of the TML to evaluate and oversee all operations of their team. Within a year he fired two coaches, GM Nonis, an assitant GM, the VP, head of pro scouting (including 18 scouts), and head of player development. By February 2016 they had trader their top scorer Kessel and finally Dion Phaneuf. Now that's scorched earth!

My question, is there anyone respected enough to take over Chris Illich's position as President? Others have said the Wings desperately need an outsider to take the reigns. A new plan to push the rebuild towards being a contender into gear. Someone who can clearly evaluate the vision of Holland and Martin. Get a fresh perspective on the job Howe, Wright, Fischer, and Horcoff are doing. Fisher was a great player but is he the best individual available as Director of Player Evaluation?

It's obvious we have some significant deficiencies within hockey operations. IMO Ken Holland moving upstairs to a senior advisory role is not the answer to returning the Wings to greatness.

Shanny did what pretty much any new GM would do here, and he didn't really have to move a lot of big roster players. It's going to take longer here because Holland's locked in so many deals to guys who probably just aren't movable unless we start attaching additional assets to them (picks, prospects). I'm not a fan of Gator or Helm, but I'm even less of a fan of attaching second rounders (or better) to them to move them. Or taking back a contract that's also awful though not quite as awful.

What's not mentioned is that the whole turning the roster thing over in 3-4 years is to just get the crap deals off our books that are currently on them. It's not guaranteeing that we'll be drafting high enough and consistently enough to be plugging quality youth into those spots or that Holland won't be rapidly plugging new awful contracts into those spots as the money becomes available.

And this is with management talking about this team being in some sort of rebuild since at least 2013. For an outside voice to be brought in, I think Holland's going to have to step aside and then whoever is given the reins from him will have to fail horribly and publicly before there is some sort of bloodletting by Ilitch.

 

[Redder Winger]

Bull**** police to the rescue.

Here's the actual quote:
Interviewer: I'm curious to know what were the conversations like at the beginning of the year? What were you guys saying about this team ... expectations for this team and then how would you explain where you're at now?
Holland: Before this season my hope was that in the months of March that we would be, for lack of better words, I guess relevant in the playoff race and that we ... last year obviously we unloaded at the TDL. We were far enough back that (we/I) made a decision to unload. The hope was that we would be in the hunt ... as we speak today we're obviously 4 pts out of the third place in our division and I think we're 7 pts out of the second wild card, so we were sort of in the hunt until this stretch where we won one game in our last 11.

I highlighted the part you misquoted. I know others may not be willing/have the time to do their own research, so for the sake of clarity and to avoid an avalanche or misinformed followup posts that happen way too often, stop making **** up. Thanks.

LOL.
Thanks for calling me a liar.

We hope we're in the playoff race in March.
We want to play meaningful games in March,

Same loser mentality.

 

[Redder Winger]

Here's another quote from a previous article, along the same lines.
“I want the fans to see a playoff game in Little Caesars Arena this year,” Holland said. “We're trying to have meaningful games.”

So when Holland says he wants to have meaningful games, or be in the playoff picture in March, he's basically saying, we don't want to tell our fans we suck until it's f***ing obvious.

So the strategy appears to be ... understand you suck, but spend to the max and hope against hope you can sneak into the playoffs.

So you can sell tickets?

The LCA has been empty almost every game this year, even when the Wings were in the playoff picture.