Ken Holland is Flailing

Reddwit

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They did that last year with Ott and Vanek. Everyone here still hated those signings.

Oh, come on, man. Not even everyone hated the Abby and Helm deals! By HF standards, the Vanek signing was very well received. I loved the signing. The Ott deal wasn't as well received but it also wasn't a hill people chose to die on because it was so cheap and sort. There were people who didn't like them (I'm pretty sure one of them is a vocal supporter of the Abby contract) but those two signings, particularly the Vanek one, was very well received, especially by people who held the same viewpoint that you're arguing against.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I certainly wasn't a fan of the Ott signing, but that's a misrepresentation of how a lot of people here felt about those signings.

Most of the negative response was on what Ott had done historically in the league. I didn't mind the signing, but I understood those that were angry about some of the busch league stuff he had done over the years. It wasn't as much about the contract being brutal or anything like that from what I remember.
 
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Claypool

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To be entirely honest, I think it's a toss up that Green is dealt in any circumstances if he's willing to sign a new deal.
Another hot take. Holland has already publicly stated that if the Red Wings aren't sniffing around a playoff spot come mid January that they'll sell.
 

Claypool

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He also tried extending Brendan Smith before trading him. Not really a hot take when your GM lacks any vision.
He also said, “At the same time, I did tell his agent that if I got some assets that I could not pass up, I was prepared to make a trade. They understood that."
 

jkutswings

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I guess I don't understand what all the complaining is about. I feel like we've been talking in circles. Since last season Holland has been moving players for draft picks.
They've been moving minor guys for minor assets. It's a tiny step in the right direction, but too little, too late, versus what should have been done 2-3 years ago.


They have 17 picks over the next two drafts and are likely adding even more picks this season when they move Green. He's doing exactly what people here want him to do. As he stated in this very interview he can't change the roster in one season. If you move salary out you're taking salary back in. Guys like Helm, Ericsson, Daley and possibly Nyquist will all be moved over the next two seasons as their contracts start to expire. Kronwall and Zetterberg are retiring soon. This team will look very different sooner than people think.
You can't move it all at once, but moving at a snail's pace doesn't get it done, either. Larkin and Mantha will be getting paid big bucks before they even have half the pieces in place. That's fine, if all you ever need to do is make the playoffs, but the clock ticks quickly if you're trying to assemble a roster good enough to contend for a championship, before salary structure starts tearing it down again.
 

WingedWheel1987

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He also said, “At the same time, I did tell his agent that if I got some assets that I could not pass up, I was prepared to make a trade. They understood that."

OK? Kenny didn't trade Smith because he was blown away by New York's offer. He was traded because he turned down Detroit's offer.

Considering the state of the blue line, i suspect Kenny will want to hold onto Green if Green wants to stay, so that the Wings can "play meaningful hockey in March."

The fact that he even offered Smith an extension is ******* insane.
 

Pavels Dog

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This team's downhill process started almost exactly after the Cup win in 2008. The Finals in 2009 was a last hurrah and an honest observer could sense it (I certainly did). After that the window of opportunity was shutting rapidly. The Wings' curve was heading downward as our best players entered the decline phase of their careers and the younger players were significantly worse.

The reason it took from 2009 to 2017 (almost a decade!) to finally be at the point where everyone here is talking rebuild (and gee I can sense the denial in you even now) is that Holland raged against the dying of the light. An overwhelming force moved to shut that window of opportunity, so Holland could never really stop it or reverse it, he just slowed it down. It didn't lead to anything, it was a fruitless attempt like Rogaine won't keep hair on your head forever.
But it will be a good number of years for the Wings to contend again. By that point in time, the Wings will look like a moribund-looking franchise. That new arena will sure look like a bad investment. We could have been at *this* point 4-5 years ago and might already be a young, competitive team on the rise again. At least Holland squeezed a few more years out of that playoff streak. When are we having the statue unveiled?
This is how it works. Anyone can see that Chicago’s window is closing, that Pittsburghs is closing, that SJ’s and Boston’s started closing years ago.. you don’t tear down a good thing. Wow, you accurately predicted in 2009 that players would get old and Wings would become bad. It only took you almost 10 years to be correct! What a genius. Please enlighten us, do you think Crosby and Malkin will be leading Pittsburgh to cups in 10 years? Maybe they should trade Crosby now so they can have a chance at rebuilding in 5 years?

This f***** attitude... ”if we tanked while we were good we’d become good again faster!”. Do you realize the stupidity? I don’t think you do. You take a core like Dats/Z and Lidstrom/Kronwall for granted, while not realizing that most rebuilding teams are dying to reach any kind of consistancy and consecutive playoff appearances. You’re literally talking about kicking off a rebuild while we had two #1Cs, a #1D, and a lot of other good pieces (Hudler, Filppula, Franzen, Howard etc). As late as 2015 we were a 100 point team. Name the teams that have tanked a 100 point team deliberately. Name ’em.


You can't move it all at once, but moving at a snail's pace doesn't get it done, either. Larkin and Mantha will be getting paid big bucks before they even have half the pieces in place. That's fine, if all you ever need to do is make the playoffs, but the clock ticks quickly if you're trying to assemble a roster good enough to contend for a championship, before salary structure starts tearing it down again.
Which of Edmonton, Buffalo and Toronto will win the cup before their stars start earning big money? Tampa then? Pittsburgh? And I thought you didn’t even think Larkin and Mantha were core pieces? What big money then? 5-6 million long term? That is no obstacle to building a contender. It’s just as bad to do a huge tank to land your McDavids and then you spend years building depth. At least for us, the moment we land a young star D and/or a McDavid (we won’t) it could carapult us into the mix because we have depth.
 
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Claypool

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They've been moving minor guys for minor assets. It's a tiny step in the right direction, but too little, too late, versus what should have been done 2-3 years ago.

You can't move it all at once, but moving at a snail's pace doesn't get it done, either. Larkin and Mantha will be getting paid big bucks before they even have half the pieces in place. That's fine, if all you ever need to do is make the playoffs, but the clock ticks quickly if you're trying to assemble a roster good enough to contend for a championship, before salary structure starts tearing it down again.

You can't argue the Red Wings have no upcoming star talent and won't be competitive and then turn around and also argue Holland should be conservative with spending to pay the younger players. Mantha and Larkin won't be getting paid the big bucks anytime soon, if ever. If you want to look at real albatross contracts that are hurting a team, look at Ottawa.
 

jkutswings

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You can't argue the Red Wings have no upcoming star talent and won't be competitive and then turn around and also argue Holland should be conservative with spending to pay the younger players. Mantha and Larkin won't be getting paid the big bucks anytime soon, if ever. If you want to look at real albatross contracts that are hurting a team, look at Ottawa.
We have different definitions of big bucks, then. Larkin will get $6-7M AAV easily if he keeps this up.

And saying they're moving too slowly also includes things like, they needed to package either Nyquist or Tatar for a defenseman while they still had value. And manage assets like Abdelkader and Helm better. And not pretend like last year was an abberation for an otherwise perennial contender.
 

Pavels Dog

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And saying they're moving too slowly also includes things like, they needed to package either Nyquist or Tatar for a defenseman while they still had value..
So add a 2nd pairing D to this team and remove one of our top forwards. The difference is?
 

jkutswings

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So add a 2nd pairing D to this team and remove one of our top forwards. The difference is?
In a vacuum, I'd rather have a 2nd pairing D than a 2nd line winger, especially with how well Detroit has drafted middle six forwards (and how poorly they've drafted defense).

But the point was that those TYPE of moves - reshaping the roster, preferably using strengths to address weaknesses - would've made sense during any of the several seasons when the team didn't have a chance to make it past the first round.

Instead, they turned the wheel of the Titanic. Slightly. Just after they hit the iceberg. Very proactive.
 
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Dotter

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In a vacuum, I'd rather have a 2nd pairing D than a 2nd line winger, especially with how well Detroit has drafted middle six forwards (and how poorly they've drafted defense).

But the point was that those TYPE of moves - reshaping the roster, preferably using strengths to address weaknesses - would've made sense during any of the several seasons when the team didn't have a chance to make it past the first round.

Instead, they turned the wheel of the Titanic. Slightly. Just after they hit the iceberg. Very proactive.

Unless it's the "Daley" level of 2nd paring dman you want, you're not getting much in terms of quality D for Nyquist/Tatar. May as well just trade them for picks and sign a UFA next Frenzy.
 

Winger98

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OK? Kenny didn't trade Smith because he was blown away by New York's offer. He was traded because he turned down Detroit's offer.

Considering the state of the blue line, i suspect Kenny will want to hold onto Green if Green wants to stay, so that the Wings can "play meaningful hockey in March."

The fact that he even offered Smith an extension is ******* insane.

If he can hold onto Green I can see him doing it because the rest of the blueline is so anemic. Green's on-pace for ~45 points. Kronwall's second on the team, pacing for ~25. After that, we'll be lucky if anyone else hits 20. Green easily nets us the best pick, but if Holland's still looking to ice the best team possible next year, it would almost certainly include Green and he'd be better of dealing literally anyone else on our blueline.

And this whole conversation is only relevant if Holland thinks there's no chance of making the playoffs.
 

jkutswings

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Unless it's the "Daley" level of 2nd paring dman you want, you're not getting much in terms of quality D for Nyquist/Tatar. May as well just trade them for picks and sign a UFA next Frenzy.
PACKAGE. As in, part of. And maybe not NOW, but that's part of my point. Back when those guys still HAD value, there were talks that Anaheim would've parted with Fowler for Tatar and AA. And I would've done that in a heartbeat, since both those forwards are relatively one dimensional, and neither are core pieces.

But regardless of which player is of interest, Detroit has over valued their own for a very long time, and has done the song and dance routine of, 'the prices are too high', every time any rumor of a trade rolls around.

Well, when you overpay your guys, and aren't willing to part with the few that are on decent contracts, you slowly amass the current 'death by a thousand cuts' that others have referenced. Except that now those cuts are bleeding more profusely.
 

Dotter

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This is how it works. Anyone can see that Chicago’s window is closing, that Pittsburghs is closing, that SJ’s and Boston’s started closing years ago.. you don’t tear down a good thing. Wow, you accurately predicted in 2009 that players would get old and Wings would become bad. It only took you almost 10 years to be correct! What a genius. Please enlighten us, do you think Crosby and Malkin will be leading Pittsburgh to cups in 10 years? Maybe they should trade Crosby now so they can have a chance at rebuilding in 5 years?

Well said. Chicago is essentially where Detroit was in 2010.
 

Winger98

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Unless it's the "Daley" level of 2nd paring dman you want, you're not getting much in terms of quality D for Nyquist/Tatar. May as well just trade them for picks and sign a UFA next Frenzy.

it sucks how little good wings will get you on the open market. I still can't believe the Devils turned Larsson into Taylor Hall (while Boston gave Hamilton away for some beans and pop rocks).
 

Dotter

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PACKAGE. As in, part of. And maybe not NOW, but that's part of my point. Back when those guys still HAD value, there were talks that Anaheim would've parted with Fowler for Tatar and AA. And I would've done that in a heartbeat, since both those forwards are relatively one dimensional, and neither are core pieces.

But regardless of which player is of interest, Detroit has over valued their own for a very long time, and has done the song and dance routine of, 'the prices are too high', every time any rumor of a trade rolls around.

Well, when you overpay your guys, and aren't willing to part with the few that are on decent contracts, you slowly amass the current 'death by a thousand cuts' that others have referenced. Except that now those cuts are bleeding more profusely.

Quality > Quantity.

There was also talks TML wanted Mantha for Phaneuf. Hindsight is 20/20.
 

Red Stanley

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This is how it works. Anyone can see that Chicago’s window is closing, that Pittsburghs is closing, that SJ’s and Boston’s started closing years ago.. you don’t tear down a good thing. Wow, you accurately predicted in 2009 that players would get old and Wings would become bad. It only took you almost 10 years to be correct! What a genius. Please enlighten us, do you think Crosby and Malkin will be leading Pittsburgh to cups in 10 years? Maybe they should trade Crosby now so they can have a chance at rebuilding in 5 years?

This f***** attitude... ”if we tanked while we were good we’d become good again faster!”. Do you realize the stupidity? I don’t think you do. You take a core like Dats/Z and Lidstrom/Kronwall for granted, while not realizing that most rebuilding teams are dying to reach any kind of consistancy and consecutive playoff appearances. You’re literally talking about kicking off a rebuild while we had two #1Cs, a #1D, and a lot of other good pieces (Hudler, Filppula, Franzen, Howard etc). As late as 2015 we were a 100 point team. Name the teams that have tanked a 100 point team deliberately. Name ’em.



Which of Edmonton, Buffalo and Toronto will win the cup before their stars start earning big money? Tampa then? Pittsburgh? And I thought you didn’t even think Larkin and Mantha were core pieces? What big money then? 5-6 million long term? That is no obstacle to building a contender. It’s just as bad to do a huge tank to land your McDavids and then you spend years building depth. At least for us, the moment we land a young star D and/or a McDavid (we won’t) it could carapult us into the mix because we have depth.

Lmao ... brilliant. Too bad it will fall on deaf ears. When some people are shown the logical fallacies in their arguments they double down instead of even pausing to consider they might be wrong. Kind of what they accuse Holland of doing. Oh the irony.
 
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Invictus12

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Then here's a novel idea: Quit handing out long term contracts. Why sign Daley, Nielsen, extend Helm, Abdelkader, etc? It reeks of EXTREMELY poor asset management. Part of what made the Wings great for so long was they were very far sighted in their moves. That ended around 2012 and the team has been in a spiral ever since. Until the management team can again be far sighted in their planning the team will continue to be a non-entity in the NHL.

Who would you play on the roster if we don't have Nielsen, Helm, Abdelkader, whomever? Also, if or when time comes, say Cholowski starts getting looks at the NHL level, who you want mentoring him? Would you rather it'd be Daley or Jensen/Ouelette?
 

BinCookin

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There isn't a single player in the Wings system that matters. Just a glut of depth players. Wings will start to get better when they draft super star talent. Until they do that, expect more of the same every year. A cap team with no hope.

I dont know why you even watch this team anymore... you never, ever, ever have anything nice to say about anything.


This team's downhill process started almost exactly after the Cup win in 2008. The Finals in 2009 was a last hurrah and an honest observer could sense it (I certainly did). .....

With all due respect... i call BS. total and utter crap.

You knew in 2009 after our back to back cup appearances that our team would never return to the cup finals huh?
BS you are lying.

How confident are you that Pittsburgh will never make it back to the cup finals??
Because thats basically what you are saying.

20/20 hindsight lying
 
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BinCookin

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to be clear no one on this board is actually claiming Holland is doing a great job. For all those that think this is some kind of fight between "holland supporters" and "haters"... there really are not many "blind" holland supporters left.

I'm a realist. And I like to follow facts.

All this talk of how we got here... yes we all agree Abdelkader should not have a 7 year deal.
lets stop talking about the decision to sign him.

I would much prefer we talk about "how" you trade him.

because that is a USEFUL conversation. "how we got here" is not useful.


So who here wants to trade Nyquist to dump Abdelkader? I.E. Nyquist + Abdelkader For (nothing)
Who here wants to trade Nielsen + tatar for a 3rd round pick?

For those that want us to "rebuild" faster....
For those that Holland to say publicly "ya our team sucks, im going to sell hard" (which lowers everyones sale value btw)....

I would like to hear more concrete suggestions of what we should package together for picks.. or just to remove from our team to tank?

Who is keeping our team out of last?
Zetterberg?
tatar / nyquist / neilsen?
helm abdelkader?

these are more important questions.
 

SantosHalper

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Rome was not built overnight. This rebuild just started last year, have some patience. If Kenny's only goal would be the playoffs, he would have fired Blashill a year ago. About couple months from now Kenny will trade Green and most likely Mrazek too and since they re-signed Tatar, Nyquist will be traded this or next season TDL.
 

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