Ken Holland is Flailing

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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The problem I have is that Holland approached this season as if last year was an isolated fluke. As if all was fine, and 2016-17 was a blip on the radar, expecting things to 'return to normal' this year.

The current roster is NOWHERE NEAR talented enough to make any noise in the playoffs, and the deficits include the most important (and hard to acquire) pieces. And it's been a prolonged and very obvious decline.

Yet, rather than acknowledge the franchise finally needs to hit the reset button, he keeps banging his head against the same wall, as if things will magically sort themselves out, and the Wings will somehow rise to the occasion, without a 1A or 1B defenseman, or a 1C, or goaltending that can put more than a week or two of consistency together.

Bye, Felicia. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 

Winger98

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Here's another quote from a previous article, along the same lines.
“I want the fans to see a playoff game in Little Caesars Arena this year,” Holland said. “We're trying to have meaningful games.”

So when Holland says he wants to have meaningful games, or be in the playoff picture in March, he's basically saying, we don't want to tell our fans we suck until it's ****ing obvious.

So the strategy appears to be ... understand you suck, but spend to the max and hope against hope you can sneak into the playoffs.

So you can sell tickets?

The LCA has been empty almost every game this year, even when the Wings were in the playoff picture.

I don't really mind him saying that, it's his signing Daley while he does it. Giving big deals to Gator, Helm, and Nielsen. If Holland talked about making fighting for a playoff spot while not bringing in a vet on a medium to long term deal, I wouldn't care. I could probably even get behind the idea of the kids overachieving a bit and fighting for a playoff berth.

That said, I think another problem I'm having with this club is that I think there's more talent in this roster than they're getting out of it on the ice.
 

jkutswings

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We don't need a traditional rebuild. The prize we're chasing is the Stanley Cup.
We don't need a traditional rebuild. The prize we're chasing is to contend for the Cup.
We don't need a traditional rebuild. The prize we're chasing is to make the playoffs.
We don't need a traditional rebuild. The prize we're chasing is to play meaningful games in March.

Something's very wrong with that timeline. What's next? Is it a successful year if the team hasn't already been mathematically eliminated by the trade deadline? Or by January 1st? Or if the arena is at least half full? On most nights?

I'll take Door Number Two whenever you're ready, Chris Ilitch.
 

Reddwit

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If Ken Holland is still the GM of the Wings next season, folks should boycott the team. Absolutely nothing to look forward to until he is gone.

Boycott the team? By the looks of the arena night-in and night-out, people already are.
 

Redder Winger

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I don't really mind him saying that, it's his signing Daley while he does it. Giving big deals to Gator, Helm, and Nielsen. If Holland talked about making fighting for a playoff spot while not bringing in a vet on a medium to long term deal, I wouldn't care. I could probably even get behind the idea of the kids overachieving a bit and fighting for a playoff berth.

That said, I think another problem I'm having with this club is that I think there's more talent in this roster than they're getting out of it on the ice.

My advice is to Holland is to say you want to win and then go out and act like it.

Or shut the f*** up and rebuild.

Either go all in to win, or rebuild.

You might get 10 years of mediocrity with 15th to 8th overall picks and never improve with Kenny's philosophy.

Fortunately, his execution is awful and this team is going to bottom out anyway.
 

dragonballgtz

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I love the question asked at 2:30 mark. How can he reshape the roster with a good amount of players having term on their contracts? His response was through the draft...OK but how will you add even more picks in the upcoming years?

That's a good question they asked him when you think about needing to get more picks for each upcoming draft. Helm, Abby, Tatar, Luke, Frans, and DD all have term. Only two guys currently can get you something is Green this year and possibly Nyquist as well. But might have to wait to move Nyquist till next year
 
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Claypool

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I love the question asked at 2:30 mark. How can he reshape the roster with a good amount of players having term on their contracts? His response was through the draft...OK but how will you add even more picks in the upcoming years?
He answered the question. He said a roster turnover can't happen in one season, and as contracts start to expire those players can/will be moved and younger players replace them. However, since takes younger players can take a couple seasons to learn how to play in the NHL and hit their potential, he likes to have veterans in certain areas while they learn.
 
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Shaman464

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He answered the question. He said a roster turnover can't happen in one season, and as contracts start to expire those players can/will be moved and younger players replace them. However, since takes younger players can take a couple seasons to learn how to play in the NHL and hit their potential, he likes to have veterans in certain areas while they learn.

Then here's a novel idea: Quit handing out long term contracts. Why sign Daley, Nielsen, extend Helm, Abdelkader, etc? It reeks of EXTREMELY poor asset management. Part of what made the Wings great for so long was they were very far sighted in their moves. That ended around 2012 and the team has been in a spiral ever since. Until the management team can again be far sighted in their planning the team will continue to be a non-entity in the NHL.
 

Pavels Dog

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I love the question asked at 2:30 mark. How can he reshape the roster with a good amount of players having term on their contracts? His response was through the draft...OK but how will you add even more picks in the upcoming years?

That's a good question they asked him when you think about needing to get more picks for each upcoming draft. Helm, Abby, Tatar, Luke, Frans, and DD all have term. Only two guys currently can get you something is Green this year and possibly Nyquist as well. But might have to wait to move Nyquist till next year
And his answer is that you can't turn over the entire roster in one year. Which is true, and trying for that kind of rebuild is dangerous and very risky unless you know you can bring in a Babcock and you know you're going to land a McDavid/Matthews.

We have the assets to get a couple extra picks in '18. Next year we'll have other guys with less term, maybe pick up a short-term deal or two in the summer. Extra picks each year + higher draft position is a combination that eventually results in a bigger wave of young kids pushing for jobs. Eventually that could mean we need to look for offseason trades etc. that create more room for kids. Right now we have no need to stress over getting Helm or Abby or Nielsen out of the roster. Who will replace them? Turgeon? Nastasiuk? We need to accept that it takes time. Our 2013 and 2014 picks are just now starting to break out. It will be a while before we see the true results of having 10+ picks and top 10 picks, which is happening in '17 and '18 and perhaps beyond.
 

WingedWheel1987

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There isn't a single player in the Wings system that matters. Just a glut of depth players. Wings will start to get better when they draft super star talent. Until they do that, expect more of the same every year. A cap team with no hope.
 
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TheMoreYouKnow

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Holland is trying to have it both ways, avoid rock bottom and yet rebuild. Nothing he ever said has indicated otherwise. In fact, it's that course that has made the bottoming out of the Wings such a slow multi-season process and may make the recovery even slower.

He's not dumb enough not to realize they need to rebuild, but he has always been full enough of himself to think he can do so without the shock effects that come with being a bottom feeder. Here's a surefire way of ensuring you'll be a mediocre franchise for several decades - build with talent not good enough to win Hart/Art Ross/Richard/Norris trophies and supplement with 2nd tier FAs. We're on a good path there.
 

Claypool

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Why sign Daley, Nielsen, extend Helm, Abdelkader, etc? It reeks of EXTREMELY poor asset management.
So your brilliant plan would be to replace those players with AHLers? Your complaining about Holland signing a defenseman that is coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups championship runs. Your idea of spending to the cap floor every season and tanking until they get a generational superstar at the top of the draft is a terrible idea.If you're asking why Holland signed those players you mentioned then you haven't been listening to all at what he's been saying the past several years, or even in this very interview.
 

Ingvar

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I swear some people here probably believe Nigerian princes want to give them millions of dollars because they take whatever is said to them at face value. This team is not making playoffs and nothing indicates that anyone in the front office believes that it should - they sell players for picks, they don't fire the coach to shake up the team, they get rid of veterans to make space for young players. You need to be intentionally blind to not notice the change in modus operandi since the streak ended.
 

Reddwit

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So your brilliant plan would be to replace those players with AHLers? Your complaining about Holland signing a defenseman that is coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups championship runs. Your idea of spending to the cap floor every season and tanking until they get a generational superstar at the top of the draft is a terrible idea.If you're asking why Holland signed those players you mentioned then you haven't been listening to all at what he's been saying the past several years, or even in this very interview.

He signed mediocre players to long-term deals. Bargain bin NHLers with modest skill but great character are available en masse every year for short-term deals. Citing Daley is a red herring. Its Dekeyser and Nielsen and Abdelkader and Ericsson and yada yadda that have been and are the problem now. Low skill, long-term, little value to the team, little value in a trade. Worst of all worlds. The only "unique" "talent" there is Abdelkader and Holland didn't need to give the league a future example of what we know happens when you buy high on the Bickells and Beleskeys and Clowes and Clarksons and on and on.
 

jkutswings

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So your brilliant plan would be to replace those players with AHLers?
There's nothing wrong with adding a veteran here and there, if they're on a contract with reasonable flexibility. That's very different than giving 5-7 year deals out like candy.

You're complaining about Holland signing a defenseman that is coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups championship runs.
Daley wasn't exactly the straw that stirred the drink for Pittsburgh. By your logic, somebody should've jumped at the chance to acquire Andreas Lilja after 2008.

Your idea of spending to the cap floor every season and tanking until they get a generational superstar at the top of the draft is a terrible idea. If you're asking why Holland signed those players you mentioned then you haven't been listening to all at what he's been saying the past several years, or even in this very interview.
Again, there's a ton of room between limping in at the cap floor, all scorched Earth, and staying at the limit via non-impact veterans. Have a FEW vets, and MOSTLY kids. Make a trade here and there. Use the gray, instead of everything being black and white.
 

Claypool

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Again, there's a ton of room between limping in at the cap floor, all scorched Earth, and staying at the limit via non-impact veterans. Have a FEW vets, and MOSTLY kids. Make a trade here and there. Use the gray, instead of everything being black and white.
I guess I don't understand what all the complaining is about. I feel like we've been talking in circles. Since last season Holland has been moving players for draft picks. They have 17 picks over the next two drafts and are likely adding even more picks this season when they move Green. He's doing exactly what people here want him to do. As he stated in this very interview he can't change the roster in one season. If you move salary out you're taking salary back in. Guys like Helm, Ericsson, Daley and possibly Nyquist will all be moved over the next two seasons as their contracts start to expire. Kronwall and Zetterberg are retiring soon. This team will look very different sooner than people think.
 

Claypool

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Bargain bin NHLers with modest skill but great character are available en masse every year for short-term deals.
They did that last year with Ott and Vanek. Everyone here still hated those signings.
 

Pavels Dog

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In fact, it's that course that has made the bottoming out of the Wings such a slow multi-season process
We were a playoff team then right away bottom~5 and now looks like bottom ~3-5. Slow? What’s fast to you? What other teams ”bottomed out” faster?

Maybe the process from contender to borderline playoff team was ”slow” but that’s still talking about a team in the upper half of the standings, making the playoffs, icing stars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc.
 
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Redder Winger

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Guys like Helm, Ericsson, Daley and possibly Nyquist will all be moved over the next two seasons as their contracts start to expire. Kronwall and Zetterberg are retiring soon. This team will look very different sooner than people think.

You're not going to get squat for Helm and Ericsson.
I wonder what value Daley will have left.
 

Winger98

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And his answer is that you can't turn over the entire roster in one year. Which is true, and trying for that kind of rebuild is dangerous and very risky unless you know you can bring in a Babcock and you know you're going to land a McDavid/Matthews.

We have the assets to get a couple extra picks in '18. Next year we'll have other guys with less term, maybe pick up a short-term deal or two in the summer. Extra picks each year + higher draft position is a combination that eventually results in a bigger wave of young kids pushing for jobs. Eventually that could mean we need to look for offseason trades etc. that create more room for kids. Right now we have no need to stress over getting Helm or Abby or Nielsen out of the roster. Who will replace them? Turgeon? Nastasiuk? We need to accept that it takes time. Our 2013 and 2014 picks are just now starting to break out. It will be a while before we see the true results of having 10+ picks and top 10 picks, which is happening in '17 and '18 and perhaps beyond.

You can't, at least not at this point. If he was going to do a serious roster shakeup it had to be the year he could have moved on from Gator and Helm instead of signing them to their current deals. He could have dealt them for the best packages he could get (I think we add at least a 1st and 2nd between them, likely more but whatever). Then fill in with players signed to more flexible deals that summer. The team's complexion would have changed, but that wouldn't have been a bad thing necessarily.

Instead, yeah, we're essentially stuck with those deals until they go away. I'd be surprised if the majority of those players are moved for anything. Remember, Smith was only moved once he turned down the Wings' offer. I think Gator and Helm get new deals. Ericsson does unless he retires. Daley and Nielsen are most likely to be moved. Kronwall and Z straight up retire at some point, though if Kronner thinks he's healthy enough I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the Dan Cleary Special and they at least try to keep him around if he wants.

To be entirely honest, I think it's a toss up that Green is dealt in any circumstances if he's willing to sign a new deal.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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They did that last year with Ott and Vanek. Everyone here still hated those signings.
I certainly wasn't a fan of the Ott signing, but that's a misrepresentation of how a lot of people here felt about those signings.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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We were a playoff team then right away bottom~5 and now looks like bottom ~3-5. Slow? What’s fast to you? What other teams ”bottomed out” faster?

Maybe the process from contender to borderline playoff team was ”slow” but that’s still talking about a team in the upper half of the standings, making the playoffs, icing stars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc.

This team's downhill process started almost exactly after the Cup win in 2008. The Finals in 2009 was a last hurrah and an honest observer could sense it (I certainly did). After that the window of opportunity was shutting rapidly. The Wings' curve was heading downward as our best players entered the decline phase of their careers and the younger players were significantly worse.

The reason it took from 2009 to 2017 (almost a decade!) to finally be at the point where everyone here is talking rebuild (and gee I can sense the denial in you even now) is that Holland raged against the dying of the light. An overwhelming force moved to shut that window of opportunity, so Holland could never really stop it or reverse it, he just slowed it down. It didn't lead to anything, it was a fruitless attempt like Rogaine won't keep hair on your head forever.
But it will be a good number of years for the Wings to contend again. By that point in time, the Wings will look like a moribund-looking franchise. That new arena will sure look like a bad investment. We could have been at *this* point 4-5 years ago and might already be a young, competitive team on the rise again. At least Holland squeezed a few more years out of that playoff streak. When are we having the statue unveiled?
 

dragonballgtz

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He answered the question. He said a roster turnover can't happen in one season, and as contracts start to expire those players can/will be moved and younger players replace them. However, since takes younger players can take a couple seasons to learn how to play in the NHL and hit their potential, he likes to have veterans in certain areas while they learn.


And his answer is that you can't turn over the entire roster in one year. Which is true, and trying for that kind of rebuild is dangerous and very risky unless you know you can bring in a Babcock and you know you're going to land a McDavid/Matthews.

We have the assets to get a couple extra picks in '18. Next year we'll have other guys with less term, maybe pick up a short-term deal or two in the summer. Extra picks each year + higher draft position is a combination that eventually results in a bigger wave of young kids pushing for jobs. Eventually that could mean we need to look for offseason trades etc. that create more room for kids. Right now we have no need to stress over getting Helm or Abby or Nielsen out of the roster. Who will replace them? Turgeon? Nastasiuk? We need to accept that it takes time. Our 2013 and 2014 picks are just now starting to break out. It will be a while before we see the true results of having 10+ picks and top 10 picks, which is happening in '17 and '18 and perhaps beyond.

I think we can all agree it takes time to build through the draft until you get that franchise player aka 1st overall. But what is Holland trying to accomplish with trying to remain competitive by signing all these veterans to long term deals? He himself stated he wants the team to play in meaningful games come March, which also means they will be playing meaningful games during the trade period. How will that impact his choice to trade, stand still, or even acquire players if the Wings are striking distance of that last playoff spot in the weak Atlantic division? He should've had these veterans signed to short term deals that are movable when teams will pay a little bit more for them in order to give them a boost for the playoffs. Also he should commit to a full rebuild instead of this halfhearted one.

Do you have to put kids in right away nope but would be ideally to give these veterans short term deals so they can be flipped quicker. I don't know how much value we are going to get for a 33 year old Helm, 35 year old Abby, 37 year old Frans etc.

Also can we even draft a good defensemen with Holland & company still in charge?
 

Kyleftlx

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Daley wasn't exactly the straw that stirred the drink for Pittsburgh. By your logic, somebody should've jumped at the chance to acquire Andreas Lilja after 2008.
To be fair, Lilja was only in the lineup for 12 of the team's 22 games, and averaged 14 minutes per night. Daley was averaging 19 and played on Pittsburgh's PP in the playoffs. The difference is that Lilja is an extra body and Daley actually contributed to a team's playoff performance. Straw or not, he definitely would have been given a contract somewhere.

I think a lot of how Holland has handled the post-Lidstrom mess has a lot to do with his vets. It's like Vancouver trying to compete while the Sedin's are there despite it potentially keeping them mediocre. They admit to not wanting to put forth a rebuild for their vets, and I think Detroit is the same way. Maybe I am wrong and it's literally just ineptitude, but I think things would be different if Zetterberg and Kronwall decided to hang 'em up.

Still, it's unfortunate how Holland has handled the last few years, going back to even when they were fighting for a playoff spot and traded futures for vets that were gone the next season. If the player isn't part of the future, don't make the trade unless you know for sure that you have the team to compete for a cup. If your team is fighting just to make the playoffs, odds are they aren't going to be able to kick it up a notch for two full months. Sure, there's examples where it has happened, but it's incredibly unlikely.
 

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