JVR-Bozak-Marner or JVR-Bozak-Brown ?

[Pookie]

@dimi78

Noted a poster above didn't read thoroughly or understand the context of our discussion so wanted to clarify.

My question to you was that if you feel he has no value, then why not simply waive him?

Of course, I don't advocate for that at all but curious as to your stance.

 

[Walshy7]

Yea that first goal was all Marner. He chases in his own end which causes problems for the other 4 on the ice. He should've stopped in front of the net and picked up the two open men, instead he blew right past them and left them wide open. Hainsey moves to cut him off and Marner just keeps chasing the puck. Everyone else was in good position. His eyes never left the puck carrier. He will get better, but he is typically puck mesmerized and has trouble with when to switch off.

this sums up marner playing D, you can not fault him for effort but he skates around like a wild man and it throws off the other 4 players, but most importantly the 2 Dmen

 

[Mess]

Marner is a -3 +/- on the year the worst on the team.. His 2 linemates are both -2 each close behind.

They're the only Leaf forwards in the negative +/-, showing that their line gives up the most even strength goals against.

When your team scores 19 goals in 3 games and your a negative player that is a statement to your defensive ability.

PS. Only Rielly -2 and Rosen -1 are the only other Leafs on for more goals against than for at ES.

 

[Gary Nylund]

@dimi78

Noted a poster above didn't read thoroughly or understand the context of our discussion so wanted to clarify.

My question to you was that if you feel he has no value, then why not simply waive him?

Of course, I don't advocate for that at all but curious as to your stance.

It doesn't matter if he has value to us or not. Even if he has no value to us and we'd better off without him, if other teams are willing to trade for him, then he has value to us in the sense that we can get assets for him.

Why would we waive a player when we could trade him instead? Take all the time you need, I'll wait.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner with another earned minus.

Not worried about him, he's 20, but his man his own goal.

They are a good 3rd. line, just have some d-zone problems.

That sums it up for me. It's hard to make excuses for his veteran linemates though and at some point you have to wonder if Marner is picking up bad habits from them and how hard it will be for him to unlearn those bad habits in the future.

 

[Pookie]

@dimi78

Hopefully you can sort through to find my question.

Another poster seems to be theorizing that he has no value to us but value to another team which is inconsistent to your point. And honestly, as you'll agree, the definition of absurd.

Of course, I believe he has value to both us and another team. Which is why Lou will have decisions to make, IMO.

 

[RLF]

this sums up marner playing D, you can not fault him for effort but he skates around like a wild man and it throws off the other 4 players, but most importantly the 2 Dmen

Agreed. It is hard for everyone to be in position when one (or more) is all over the place. It makes reads harder and usually leaves another guy open who many will blame someone else for the open man just because he was closest to him. That goal is a great example. Everyone else switched off as they should, including Bozak, while JVR stayed in position as he should. No one chased but Marner. He will get it, but it is going to take time. As much flak as Bozak and JVR get, I think Marner is with them because they are vets and Babcock wants that presence to try and teach Marner as well as not disrupting the other two lines who are good at both ends of the rink. Marner is a great talent, but needs to stop chasing the puck in the D-zone. Sometimes less is more and he hasn`t learned that yet.

 

[RLF]

That sums it up for me. It's hard to make excuses for his veteran linemates though and at some point you have to wonder if Marner is picking up bad habits from them and how hard it will be for him to unlearn those bad habits in the future.

Not that the other two haven`t made mistakes, but on that goal, everyone else was in position and switched off when Marner went for his skate. No one has taught Marner that.imo

 

[thewave]

Marner is a -3 +/- on the year the worst on the team.. His 2 linemates are both -2 each close behind.

They're the only Leaf forwards in the negative +/-, showing that their line gives up the most even strength goals against.

When your team scores 19 goals in 3 games and your a negative player that is a statement to your defensive ability.

PS. Only Rielly -2 and Rosen -1 are the only other Leafs on for more goals against than for at ES.

You know it Mess. He needs to shore up his game and stop that phantom player pass stuff as well. This team has enough jam on L1 and L2 that you could probably trade Bozak and toss Nylander in and then up Brown to Matthews and that would be that.

 

[cannucky]

Yea that first goal was all Marner. He chases in his own end which causes problems for the other 4 on the ice. He should've stopped in front of the net and picked up the two open men, instead he blew right past them and left them wide open. Hainsey moves to cut him off and Marner just keeps chasing the puck. Everyone else was in good position. His eyes never left the puck carrier. He will get better, but he is typically puck mesmerized and has trouble with when to switch off.

I notice once again you ignore the root cause , Reilly got walked on the entry again .If he angled his man off we clear the zone and counter but instead of moving his feet to maintain position and using his body to angle the man into the boards he leans and reaches with his stick 1 handed allowing the man to take the outside setting up the cycle that led to the goal .Way to address the symptom instead of the disease . Morgan Lebda -2 with an assist on the ice for all 3 goals .

 

[thewave]

Not that the other two haven`t made mistakes, but on that goal, everyone else was in position and switched off when Marner went for his skate. No one has taught Marner that.imo

Marner has shown... He can skate, he can shoot fairly well. He can be elusive and all the rest and he looks fantastic... Then.... Phantom player passes, stupid passes when someone is in the lane and he has a scoring position. Why? How? What is it that he can turn 30seconds of brilliant possession into mud for a split second pass decision. He needs to f***ing stop it right away. Its embarrassing. I mean, we are talking multiple times as well

 

[Gary Nylund]

@dimi78

Hopefully you can sort through to find my question.

Another poster seems to be theorizing that he has no value to us but value to another team which is inconsistent to your point. And honestly, as you'll agree, the definition of absurd.

Of course, I believe he has value to both us and another team. Which is why Lou will have decisions to make, IMO.

LOL. Seems like you're referring to me and you're suffering from reading comprehension issues (again). I never said JVR has no value to us, I was merely showing you that it was theoretically possible for him to have value to us as a trade asset, even if he had no value to us on the ice.

Did you forget your original question? Here it is again, your words, not mine:

My question to you was that if you feel he has no value, then why not simply waive him?

Note the use of the word "if". Do you understand the meaning of the word?

So again dear Pookie, for the last time, even if JVR has no value to use on the ice, it is still possible that he has value to us as a trade asset which is why it would be idiotic to waive him.

I really hope that helps Pookie. If you still don't get it, I'm not sure what else to say as it's been explained several times and it seems like you're the only one who's having trouble with this. Do you understand now?

 

[thewave]

I notice once again you ignore the root cause , Reilly got walked on the entry again .If he angled his man off we clear the zone and counter but instead of moving his feet to maintain position and using his body to angle the man into the boards he leans and reaches with his stick 1 handed allowing the man to take the outside setting up the cycle that led to the goal .Way to address the symptom instead of the disease . Morgan Lebda -2 with an assist on the ice for all 3 goals .

Play read properly.

 

[zeke]

I notice once again you ignore the root cause , Reilly got walked on the entry again .If he angled his man off we clear the zone and counter but instead of moving his feet to maintain position and using his body to angle the man into the boards he leans and reaches with his stick 1 handed allowing the man to take the outside setting up the cycle that led to the goal .Way to address the symptom instead of the disease . Morgan Lebda -2 with an assist on the ice for all 3 goals .

No, it was marner that got walked at the top of the zone, not rielly.

 

[Pookie]

Seems like a comprehension challenged day.

A poster (s?) seems hung up on the idea that JVR may have no value to us when in fact he may have value to another team.

There are clear issues with this of course.

1. If our internet scouts are right, surely their paid scouts would assess his value as "lazy and defensively horrible" as they have portrayed. Why trade? Or even why trade now when he can be bad for nothing as a UFA on a low salary based on his flaws?

2. Even if.. big IF... huge IF... is the case, then there is the issue that we have in front of us. Lou hasn't made the trade. A guy who brings in a 38 year old and a rental hasn't made this deal.

We have to assume in light of actual fact, that a better option, either in the minors or on a competitive roster, sympathy does not exist.

JVR's biggest value right now is on our roster and on this line.

 

[RLF]

I notice once again you ignore the root cause , Reilly got walked on the entry again .If he angled his man off we clear the zone and counter but instead of moving his feet to maintain position and using his body to angle the man into the boards he leans and reaches with his stick 1 handed allowing the man to take the outside setting up the cycle that led to the goal .Way to address the symptom instead of the disease . Morgan Lebda -2 with an assist on the ice for all 3 goals .

So what other root causes do you feel I miss that you have figured out? lol

When Rielly got "walked", we were not in trouble. Sure if he could have ridden him off, maybe the play dies. If every defenceman stopped every entry, there would be no offence. Defencemen get "walked", beat to the puck on dump ins, lose some puck battles etc every game. Teams are going to enter our zone, the issues begins when we do not cover well when it happens. I am sure if we wanted to, we could trace the play all the way back to the offensive end with a giveaway, or neutral zone etc. If he "walked" Rielly and went straight to the net and a goal resulted, then yes, I would agree Rielly got beat and a goal was the direct result. He pushed him to the outside and it is Marner who left his man wide open, lost him along the wall and began to chase. Had he stopped in front, no goal. But let's blame Rielly, or any defenceman for that matter that allows a zone entry that eventually leads to a goal from poor defensive zone coverage. There is a lot of goals that are all the d-men's fault then.

Even just watch the game in 6 and pause at the 25 sec mark. Marner is too deep, leaving JVR with both point men and his eyes never leave either puck carrier. If he was in position, he could have deflected the pass to the point. He made multiple position errors on one play. I would bet even Marner puts that goal on himself. But you want to blame Rielly.ok

 

[RLF]

No, it was marner that got walked at the top of the zone, not rielly.

Once again you ignore the root cause.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Seems like a comprehension challenged day.

A poster (s?) seems hung up on the idea that JVR may have no value to us when in fact he may have value to another team.

There are clear issues with this of course.

1. If our internet scouts are right, surely their paid scouts would assess his value as "lazy and defensively horrible" as they have portrayed. Why trade? Or even why trade now when he can be bad for nothing as a UFA on a low salary based on his flaws?

2. Even if.. big IF... huge IF... is the case, then there is the issue that we have in front of us. Lou hasn't made the trade. A guy who brings in a 38 year old and a rental hasn't made this deal.

We have to assume in light of actual fact, that a better option, either in the minors or on a competitive roster, sympathy does not exist.

JVR's biggest value right now is on our roster and on this line.

You're the one who asked how it would be possible. You're also the one who hasn't understood the simple explanation of how it would be possible.

Good luck with your issues.

 

[Legion34]

Jvr is an approximately 30g 60pt winger. Which has value. Of course. He is on a team with tons of scoring and a line that doesn’t mask his D issues. I fully believe that the plan was to trade JVR for a d and then marleau was the replacement.

I don’t love marleau on the Kadri line. Brown is a better grinder. I think marleau should be the jvr replacement for a trade. Depth is great but having depth push people out of their proper slots is not.

Hyman. Matthews. Nylander
Marleau bozak. Marner
Leo. Kadri. Brown
Martin. Moore. Fehr
Leivo (switching in).

Makes so much more sense. Marner can play with a winger with speed, shot and 2 way game. Brown back where he belongs.

I have floated jvr and carrick for Vatanen (cap even works!) a bunch so I won’t beat a dead horse. But that’s what I would do.

Probably lose bozie to UFA but thems the breaks

 

[Menzinger]

You mean wasn't great then? then I agree. I agree with the coach usage part as well and am sure Babcock isn't thrilled with their defensive play, but you are still placing Bozak and JVR together. Would he not logically be better defensively playing with Komarov and Brown on the wings? Different style of play then his current and past wingers, so he would have to adjust, which should improve his overall defensive play. I also never said he was good defensively, I said average.

Pairing him with defensively superior linemates wouldn't necessarily improve his defensive level but would rather negate some of the negative impact of it. I also don't think he's capable of handling Kadris usage against the opposition's top lines

 

[Menzinger]

I will say, in a partial defense of Bozak and JVR, Andersen isnt playing well. A .892 sv% is simply unacceptable

 

[Budsfan]

Why these threads are started, really gets me, when Babcock is the coach and he and his staff have put certain players on certain lines because that's where they fit the best and since Marner has been on the JVR/Bozak line now seems they can't play defence and maybe Marner should be put on another line but which one as a right winger do we take Nylander off the Matthews/Hyman line and put Nylander with JVR/Bozak/Nylander or drop him down and play with Marleau/Kadri/Marner, then swap Komarov with Brown and put him on the JVR/Bozak/Brown line, may be worth a try but Babcock probably won't and we will jst have to stumble along with 3 wins to start the season.
JVR/Bozak/Brown
Hyman/Matthews/Nylander
Marleau/Kadri/Marner
Martin/Moore/Komarov

 

[Pookie]

I will say, in a partial defense of Bozak and JVR, Andersen isnt playing well. A .892 sv% is simply unacceptable

In a lot of ways, you are right.

We generally only dissect the goals. If we get a save, many defensive "oops" go undiscussed.

Much like JVR/Bozak combining on the game tying goal has gone "undiscussed."

 

[The Apologist]

In a lot of ways, you are right.

We generally only dissect the goals. If we get a save, many defensive "oops" go undiscussed.

Much like JVR/Bozak combining on the game tying goal has gone "undiscussed."

Youre right. Looking squarely at the Rangers game, shortly after the Rangers tie it, Andersen makes two huge saves while the Kadri/Leo/Marleau line is out. If he allows those goals then is our shutdown line suddenly a problem?

 

[thewave]

Youre right. Looking squarely at the Rangers game, shortly after the Rangers tie it, Andersen makes two huge saves while the Kadri/Leo/Marleau line is out. If he allows those goals then is our shutdown line suddenly a problem?

These stats normalize over a season. Don't cherrypick plays.