Jonathan Toews

[LDF]

I'm not sure how there can be "too much on your plate" in hockey. It's a pretty straightforward thing, this whole playing hockey. You need to score more goals when you're on the ice, than you allow the other team to score.

At $10.5M a season, he is expected to produce and play a strong two-way game. At $10.5M a season, he should be making his linemates better. Kind of like Kane does. At $10.5M a season, he should be putting forth 110% effort at all times.

He has done none of these things, this season.

while i will not disagree with you in ref to this yr, but doesn't a player be given the benefit of doubt for, according to you statement, this yr ??

 

[VickAshley]

I'm not sure how there can be "too much on your plate" in hockey. It's a pretty straightforward thing, this whole playing hockey. You need to score more goals when you're on the ice, than you allow the other team to score.

At $10.5M a season, he is expected to produce and play a strong two-way game. At $10.5M a season, he should be making his linemates better. Kind of like Kane does. At $10.5M a season, he should be putting forth 110% effort at all times.

He has done none of these things, this season.

I think we can all agree that Toews has had one of those slumping seasons where he's just not himself, and that's okay, I get it, but what I don't get is why people have so much hating distain for one of the best captains the hawks have ever seen and why fans just want to talk about how much money he makes like they are being stolen from when it's not your money and most fans will never see money like that in their lives to be stolen from ever anyways, so it's a mute point. Point is, the whole team needs to be better and it's time for a change of direction but that doesn't mean you literally kick Toews to the curb. But I get it, after a bad season everyone wants someone to blame, I just know I'm right that it's at least 90% Q and Toews is only a smaller part of the 10% left over.

 

[VickAshley]

while i will not disagree with you in ref to this yr, but doesn't a player be given the benefit of doubt for, according to you statement, this yr ??

I think some people just hate Toews irrationallingly.

 

[LDF]

the core was drafted by Tallon - Tallon deserves and always has a **** load of credit...I don't think anyone is/has ever not said that.

but the main difference is Tallon got to draft when this team was ****, his picks were top 10 picks for a number of years. I still give him credit for making the right calls with Toews and Kane and Seabs...but where Tallon really impressed (him and his scouting team including Bowman) is the drafting of Hammer, Buff, and Brouwer...the rounds they drafted those guys still to this day impresses the hell out of me. And Keith in the 2nd round, was magic!!

Bowman has had some amazing picks as well - Shaw, DeBrincat, Saad, Sikura, etc...but look at average draft position between the 2 GM's, one had the chance to build this thing, the other could only try to replace players here and there constantly picking 25th and later - need to keep that in consideration as well.

I loved Tallon, I will always defend a lot of what he did, but Bowman has done a lot as well, so much retooling here, and him bringing in Panarin alone puts him well on par with Tallon and those picks.

i have been fighting this battle for a long time. i remember that posters have always disagreed with me on this issue, and then realize that Tallon was at the helm of the 1st SC. then the goal-post got moved. then later again the goal-post got moved again with SB being in the scouting dept of the building including the 1st..... all thru these discussion, even last week when i mention the other person who was never recognize from that dept. Mike Kelley. why has no-one but me has mention his contribution..... i will tell you, it is b/c it didn't fit the posters narrative.

even you when you posted about his, SB draft pick.... wow... he manage to do all those scouting and accumulation of data all by himself...... no one help him.

see the point in my sacristic post.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I think some people just hate Toews irrationallingly.

It’s exaggerated but man, 10.5M is a lot. I think it’s just that it is clear having Kane as your only elite player isn’t enough, we need both to win. If he doesn’t step it up, we’re screwed. No way around it other than replacing him with an elite 1C and moving him to the 2nd line.

 

[VickAshley]

It’s exaggerated but man, 10.5M is a lot. I think it’s just that it is clear having Kane as your only elite player isn’t enough, we need both to win. If he doesn’t step it up, we’re screwed. No way around it other than replacing him with an elite 1C and moving him to the 2nd line.

He'll step up, mark it down. Watch and learn.

 

[LDF]

It’s exaggerated but man, 10.5M is a lot. I think it’s just that it is clear having Kane as your only elite player isn’t enough, we need both to win. If he doesn’t step it up, we’re screwed. No way around it other than replacing him with an elite 1C and moving him to the 2nd line.

for this sake..... last season, the Bhawks got eliminated in straight games.... where was cc, he make 6+ million, where is Pan, where is Kane, where was Hossa..... need i continue ??

 

[BK]

i have been fighting this battle for a long time. i remember that posters have always disagreed with me on this issue, and then realize that Tallon was at the helm of the 1st SC. then the goal-post got moved. then later again the goal-post got moved again with SB being in the scouting dept of the building including the 1st..... all thru these discussion, even last week when i mention the other person who was never recognize from that dept. Mike Kelley. why has no-one but me has mention his contribution..... i will tell you, it is b/c it didn't fit the posters narrative.

even you when you posted about his, SB draft pick.... wow... he manage to do all those scouting and accumulation of data all by himself...... no one help him.

see the point in my sacristic post.

Fact check. July 14, 2009 - the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor.

 

[AmericanDream]

i have been fighting this battle for a long time. i remember that posters have always disagreed with me on this issue, and then realize that Tallon was at the helm of the 1st SC. then the goal-post got moved. then later again the goal-post got moved again with SB being in the scouting dept of the building including the 1st..... all thru these discussion, even last week when i mention the other person who was never recognize from that dept. Mike Kelley. why has no-one but me has mention his contribution..... i will tell you, it is b/c it didn't fit the posters narrative.

even you when you posted about his, SB draft pick.... wow... he manage to do all those scouting and accumulation of date all by himself...... no one help him.

see the point in my sacristic post.

It is Mark Kelley just so you put the right name moving forward.

I am not seeing any goal-posts being moved here. Many of us have always talked about Kelley, he has been the glue behind both GMs.

But honestly you make no sense to me - we talk about GMs, THEY make the picks. Kelley does not make the picks, he sends their data/information to Tallon and Bowman who then choose to decide what to do with it. Typically on later round picks is where the GM's let their leash go and "allow" their heads of scouting to make the picks, but do not for one second think Mark Kelley made many of these picks- he DID NOT.

And again, if you claim Tallon is the better GM to Bowman, and then say that Mark Kelley was responsible for both GM's success, aren't you moving goal posts here and absolutely contradicting your stance on Tallon? How can Tallon be the better GM if he had Mark Kelley helping him? I am confused...

 

[LDF]

Fact check. July 14, 2009 - the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor.

and this and some change will buy some eggs.....

so what does this have to do with what we are discussing.

 

[BK]

and this and some change will buy some eggs.....

so what does this have to do with what we are discussing.

i remember that posters have always disagreed with me on this issue, and then realize that Tallon was at the helm of the 1st SC

You literally made the claim that Tallon was at the "helm" of the Hawks. You claim is not true. This is the point of a fact check. You are trying to use a lie to back up your point.

 

[Pez68]

I think we can all agree that Toews has had one of those slumping seasons where he's just not himself, and that's okay, I get it, but what I don't get is why people have so much hating distain for one of the best captains the hawks have ever seen and why fans just want to talk about how much money he makes like they are being stolen from when it's not your money and most fans will never see money like that in their lives to be stolen from ever anyways, so it's a mute point. Point is, the whole team needs to be better and it's time for a change of direction but that doesn't mean you literally kick Toews to the curb. But I get it, after a bad season everyone wants someone to blame, I just know I'm right that it's at least 90% Q and Toews is only a smaller part of the 10% left over.

A slump is one thing. Lack of effort is another. I don't hate the guy at all. He's a huge reason the Hawks won 3 cups. But in today's NHL, with a hard salary cap, you need to get what you pay for. Ideally, you want guys that outperform their cap hit.... At the very least, they have to come close to performing CLOSE to their cap hit... It's just the reality of the salary cap era. He's a huge problem right now, because he's giving the Hawks about $5M a season less than he's taking off the cap.

Q has hurt the entire team this season. Not much question there. But Toews has hurt himself much more, with how he plays.

 

[BK]

A slump is one thing. Lack of effort is another. I don't hate the guy at all. He's a huge reason the Hawks won 3 cups. But in today's NHL, with a hard salary cap, you need to get what you pay for. Ideally, you want guys that outperform their cap hit.... At the very least, they have to come close to performing CLOSE to their cap hit... It's just the reality of the salary cap era. He's a huge problem right now, because he's giving the Hawks about $5M a season less than he's taking off the cap.

Q has hurt the entire team this season. Not much question there. But Toews has hurt himself much more, with how he plays.

This.

 

[VickAshley]

A slump is one thing. Lack of effort is another. I don't hate the guy at all. He's a huge reason the Hawks won 3 cups. But in today's NHL, with a hard salary cap, you need to get what you pay for. Ideally, you want guys that outperform their cap hit.... At the very least, they have to come close to performing CLOSE to their cap hit... It's just the reality of the salary cap era. He's a huge problem right now, because he's giving the Hawks about $5M a season less than he's taking off the cap.

Q has hurt the entire team this season. Not much question there. But Toews has hurt himself much more, with how he plays.

hahaha Wellllll.....ummmmmmmmmm

Maybe perhaps you can tell him right into his face that he should take a pay cut to free up some cap and convince him that he's not worth what the hawks agreed to pay for him because it sounds like that's what you think.

 

[LDF]

It is Mark Kelley just so you put the right name moving forward.

I am not seeing any goal-posts being moved here. Many of us have always talked about Kelley, he has been the glue behind both GMs.

But honestly you make no sense to me - we talk about GMs, THEY make the picks. Kelley does not make the picks, he sends their data/information to Tallon and Bowman who then choose to decide what to do with it. Typically on later round picks is where the GM's let their leash go and "allow" their heads of scouting to make the picks, but do not for one second think Mark Kelley made many of these picks- he DID NOT.

And again, if you claim Tallon is the better GM to Bowman, and then say that Mark Kelley was responsible for both GM's success, aren't you moving goal posts here and absolutely contradicting your stance on Tallon? How can Tallon be the better GM if he had Mark Kelley helping him? I am confused...

ok mike or mark... so let me say it some white dude.

ref to goal post and draft picks. i have never started this narrative until poster starting to create a straw man fallacy. SB was directly responsible for 3 sc's. then this started to chg in support of their pov. hence the moving of the goal post. however i have never heard of Mark Kelley in any discussions even last week or 2 weeks ago until i brought it up.

they the gm's make the pick based on all accumulated data gather and with an agreement being made. i like to add and have said in the past until i was forced to split hairs on this pov of the scouting dept..... everyone involve in the scouting dept.... yet this was not good enuf and again for their narrative.

 

[AmericanDream]

hahaha Wellllll.....ummmmmmmmmm

Maybe perhaps you can tell him right into his face that he should take a pay cut to free up some cap and convince him that he's not worth what the hawks agreed to pay for him because it sounds like that's what you think.

it is unfortunately what should be done, but that isn't allowed in hockey.

I love Toews, always have and thankful for him...but how he can look himself in the mirror knowing he makes more money than everyone in the league not named Kane is beyond me. there should be plenty of "I'm sorry" interviews going on right now as he should be embarrassed for his performance the past 2.5 seasons.

 

[BK]

hahaha Wellllll.....ummmmmmmmmm

Maybe perhaps you can tell him right into his face that he should take a pay cut to free up some cap and convince him that he's not worth what the hawks agreed to pay for him because it sounds like that's what you think.

Can we stop with "say it to his face" stuff?

Toews needs to perform up to his contract. That is on him and he has not been doing that the past few seasons. If Toews can be back to his .8+ ppg two-way monster form then he will be earning his contract but if he continues on his current trend he won't. Simple as that.

 

[LDF]

You literally made the claim that Tallon was at the "helm" of the Hawks. You claim is not true. This is the point of a fact check. You are trying to use a lie to back up your point.

it is based on all the previous discussion on this topic until it became an ad-nauseam pov. i chg my pov when i couldn't get poster to look outside the box, so i chg it to SB is a great scout and great at drafting. which happens to be true.

so fine i was now able to continue to post to the discussion without this same BS arguments about splitting hairs.

i agreed i had to change my way of saying something to get to finish a good conversation.

 

[LDF]

You literally made the claim that Tallon was at the "helm" of the Hawks. You claim is not true. This is the point of a fact check. You are trying to use a lie to back up your point.

you mean Tallon was not the GM when the Hawks won the first SC ??

 

[LDF]

it is unfortunately what should be done, but that isn't allowed in hockey.

I love Toews, always have and thankful for him...but how he can look himself in the mirror knowing he makes more money than everyone in the league not named Kane is beyond me. there should be plenty of "I'm sorry" interviews going on right now as he should be embarrassed for his performance the past 2.5 seasons.

not taking sides here.... but the Players Union and the contract has something to prevent that.

 

[BK]

you mean Tallon was not the GM when the Hawks won the first SC ??

Correct. July 14, 2009 - the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor.

 

[LDF]

Can we stop with "say it to his face" stuff?

Toews needs to perform up to his contract. That is on him and he has not been doing that the past few seasons. If Toews can be back to his .8+ ppg two-way monster form then he will be earning his contract but if he continues on his current trend he won't. Simple as that.

devil advocate here.

then isn't this blame should fall on Q ??

 

[BK]

devil advocate here.

then isn't this blame should fall on Q ??

It falls on the whole organization. Everyone.

 

[LDF]

Correct. July 14, 2009 - the Blackhawks demoted Tallon to the position of senior advisor.

then who was in charge .... i mean on the books in charge for the 1 st cup ??

2nd, does this take or should take away for what Tallon contribution in drafting some of the core ??

 

[AmericanDream]

not taking sides here.... but the Players Union and the contract has something to prevent that.

exactly. that is my point - poster brought up asking Toews to do something that isn't allowed in hockey.