Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin - So comman Edition

[HBDay]

When I say elite, I’m thinking Pierre Turgeon level. That what Drouin was sold and packaged as. Habs brass marketed him heavily throughout last summer as the new Franco saviour. My memory is clear.

As for your hyperbole - Crosby is the best of the elite C’s

Pacioretty is an elite goal scorer... does that make him Ovechkin? No, but he’s still elite.

Regarding the "elite" status. In my opinion there are few truly elite centers. Maybe off the top of my head McDavid, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares, Malkin. Then there are Franchise centers (top centers) for which there are alot of - Austen Matthews, Tyler Seguin, Patrice Bergeron, Claude Giroux, Nathan Mackinnon ect. - most of these guy's you could make an argument for "elite" status and most of them will likely reach elite status.

I guess Elite can be interpreted a few way's but by definition it is the top part of a group. So the top of the top centers.

Pacioretty is an Elite goal scorer, does that make him Ovechkin? No, but he's been riding in the same company as Ovechkin for 5 years so yeah he's and Elite goal scorer.

No one ever even expected Drouin to be in the same stratosphere as the Elite centers or the top centers or probably even the good centers. Did I expect him to be in the top 50 point getters in the NHL, yes. The top 100 point getters? Yes. But alas he finished 143rd in points so I'm dissapointed just like you.

 

[Scriptor]

You're memory is clear now but not earlier. Now you say and I quote

"Habs brass marketed him heavily throughout last summer as the new Franco saviour"

Which you are correct about. He certainly was marketed and promoted by the Canadiens as a top player who was a home town hero and was going to bring some skill and offense.

What you had previously said and I quote was "He was advertised as growing into an elite no1 C."

So you've changed your opinion which is great because that means we agree now.

And here I thought you were going to say that it was great because, now, he was less full of $hit. Which I wholeheartedly would have agreed with.

Kidding aside, a lot of posters paint their arguments to the extreme, which may be natural as a first draft based on emotion for some. The only problem I see is that, faced with the overt exaggeration, they then steadfastly refuse to step back from it, even a little.

It then becomes a bunch of justification, rationalization, or plain bullying in defence of falsities. Thankfully, there are a few posters that can recant a little.

 

[Kriss E]

From 2 weeks ago though.

Anyways I watched old highlights of him and he isn't close to the same player

He still is the same guy...that is the problem. He isn't playing in the juniors anymore, time for him to realize that and mature his game.

 

[HBDay]

And here I thought you were going to say that it was great because, now, he was less full of $hit. Which I wholeheartedly would have agreed with.

Kidding aside, a lot of posters paint their arguments to the extreme, which may be natural as a first draft based on emotion for some. The only problem I see is that, faced with the overt exaggeration, they then steadfastly refuse to step back from it, even a little.

It then becomes a bunch of justification, rationalization, or plain bullying in defence of falsities. Thankfully, there are a few posters that can recant a little.

Definitely I get that. This is why we get so many arguments rather than debates. In a debate both sides can move a little and the goal is to reach some sort of conclusion. In an argument both sides just stick to their version and don't budge.

In this case I'm not trying to defend Drouin, because well he doesn't deserve it. But I'm not going to call a construction worker an asshole for not become a doctor, something he never was going to be.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Regarding the "elite" status. In my opinion there are few truly elite centers. Maybe off the top of my head McDavid, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares, Malkin. Then there are Franchise centers (top centers) for which there are alot of - Austen Matthews, Tyler Seguin, Patrice Bergeron, Claude Giroux, Nathan Mackinnon ect. - most of these guy's you could make an argument for "elite" status and most of them will likely reach elite status.

I guess Elite can be interpreted a few way's but by definition it is the top part of a group. So the top of the top centers.

Pacioretty is an Elite goal scorer, does that make him Ovechkin? No, but he's been riding in the same company as Ovechkin for 5 years so yeah he's and Elite goal scorer.

No one ever even expected Drouin to be in the same stratosphere as the Elite centers or the top centers or probably even the good centers. Did I expect him to be in the top 50 point getters in the NHL, yes. The top 100 point getters? Yes. But alas he finished 143rd in points so I'm dissapointed just like you.

I did say “growing into”

I’m not disappointed in Drouin. He’s exactly what I thought he’d be, it was a self-preserving move by MB to appease a section of the fan base and the marketing campaign was always likely to blow up in the Habs faces.

I’ll revise my statement if not my overall opinion to make things clearer (I really hate getting tied up in semantics - I think it’s a curse on our society).

Grant McCagg said Matthews was the only Leafs forward better than Drouin. He was pushed as our Seguin, MacKinnon, no doubts.

Theres’s a growing feeling that Habs brass are cynically sending the message that if they can be seen to be attempting to become more Franco, then people will ignore the awful job they are doing. Hence those ridiculous leaks of them being interested in Pierre-Luc Dubois. As if Columbus would just give him up.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Obviously I had higher expectations for Drouin this season, but considering how bad the team was and that he was put at C I'll give him a pass for last year. He showed some better things as the season went on and he just turned 23, he's still young and there is time for him to improve.

Sergachev had 1 goal in his last 47 regular season games in Tampa playing on a far better coached and way more talented team. Seeing how our D play under JJD, Julien's preference to play clowns like Benn/Schlemko/Alzner, I can't even imagine how bad his development would've been hindered here and how he would've been in and out of the lineup each mistake so Julien could make sure to keep Benn in the lineup.

 

[HBDay]

I did say “growing into”

I’m not disappointed in Drouin. He’s exactly what I thought he’d be, it was a self-preserving move by MB to appease a section of the fan base and the marketing campaign was always likely to blow up in the Habs faces.

I’ll revise my statement if not my overall opinion to make things clearer (I really hate getting tied up in semantics - I think it’s a curse on our society).

Grant McCagg said Matthews was the only Leafs forward better than Drouin. He was pushed as our Seguin, MacKinnon, no doubts.

Theres’s a growing feeling that Habs brass are cynically sending the message that if they can be seen to be attempting to become more Franco, then people will ignore the awful job they are doing. Hence those ridiculous leaks of them being interested in Pierre-Luc Dubois. As if Columbus would just give him up.

I'm all for having a more francophone team. Quebec produces alot of good hockey players. If that is going to be our identity I'm fine with it. I just don't want to pay premiums to get them or use valuable picks to select them out of position.

I am disappointed in Drouin. But I also haven't written him off yet just because of the premium we paid for him.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'm all for having a more francophone team. Quebec produces alot of good hockey players. If that is going to be our identity I'm fine with it. I just don't want to pay premiums to get them or use valuable picks to select them out of position.

I am disappointed in Drouin. But I also haven't written him off yet just because of the premium we paid for him.

Francophone isn't really any more of an identity for a hockey team any more that Russian, Swedish or B.C.-er is a hockey identity.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Obviously I had higher expectations for Drouin this season, but considering how bad the team was and that he was put at C I'll give him a pass for last year. He showed some better things as the season went on and he just turned 23, he's still young and there is time for him to improve.

Sergachev had 1 goal in his last 47 regular season games in Tampa playing on a far better coached and way more talented team. Seeing how our D play under JJD, Julien's preference to play clowns like Benn/Schlemko/Alzner, I can't even imagine how bad his development would've been hindered here and how he would've been in and out of the lineup each mistake so Julien could make sure to keep Benn in the lineup.

I see @417 liked this post about how coaching and deployment can affect the accomplishment and future of players. Very interdasting.

 

[417]

I see @417 liked this post about how coaching and deployment can affect the accomplishment and future of players. Very interdasting.

why is that?

Considering i've said this in the past (see my posts on Galchenyuk/Drouin/Radulov/Plekanec/DLR/McCarron, etc), i'm curious to know why this is so interesting to you.

 

[NotProkofievian]

why is that?

Considering i've said this in the past (see my posts on Galchenyuk/Drouin/Radulov/Plekanec/DLR/McCarron, etc), i'm curious to know why this is so interesting to you.

Just saying. The idea that giving a prospect ample opportunity and linemates is crucial to support their learning of a position and offensive accomplishment sure makes it sound like development matters.

Or does it only matter when you made wildly optimistic predictions for a player's output?

 

[417]

Just saying. The idea that giving a prospect ample opportunity and linemates is crucial to support their learning of a position and offensive accomplishment sure makes it sound like development matters.

As I said when I argued that last week, about 1888 times...I never said coaching doesn't impact development.

I just don't agree it impacts it to the degree you and/or others do (i.e. I don't think coaches can 'bust' players on their own).

And I certainly NEVER said that "development doesn't matter".

You will find that very clarification, littered throughout SEVERAL of my posts last week, 2 weeks ago or countless of previous times.

Grateful if you could actually acknowledge them now

Perhaps you should spend less time trying to catch me in these failed "A-ha" moments and spend more time actually reading through the content of my posts...that way, you wouldn't spend time scouring the board for my 'likes'.

Or does it only matter when you made wildly optimistic predictions for a player's output?

Insert Price is Right loser theme music.

I also never made any 'wildly' optimistic predictions for Jonathan Drouin...I thought he'd at least be able to match what Radulov did and/or reach/exceed 60pts.

If that's 'wild'...then so be it.

 

[Laurentide]

Definitely I get that. This is why we get so many arguments rather than debates. In a debate both sides can move a little and the goal is to reach some sort of conclusion. In an argument both sides just stick to their version and don't budge.

In this case I'm not trying to defend Drouin, because well he doesn't deserve it. But I'm not going to call a construction worker an ******* for not become a doctor, something he never was going to be.

Or as Pierre Larouche famously said when complaining that the Habs' coaching staff was getting on his case for not backchecking enough "You don't hire Rembrandt to paint your garage".

The Habs of the past quarter century have consistently tried to pound square pegs into round holes and then blamed the player for not succeeding somehow. They set players up to fail and then point the finger at them and say that it's because they have a bad "attitude" or not enough "ka-RACK-ter". "The answers are in the room" but never, it seems, in the front office.

 

[NotProkofievian]

As I said when I argued that last week, about 1888 times...I never said coaching doesn't impact development.

I just don't agree it impacts it to the degree you and/or others do (i.e. I don't think coaches can 'bust' players on their own).

And I certainly NEVER said that "development doesn't matter".

You will find that very clarification, littered throughout SEVERAL of my posts last week, 2 weeks ago or countless of previous times.

Grateful if you could actually acknowledge them now

Lol explain, specifically, what you mean by ''of course development matters'' if every single player who will bust, will bust regardless of the coach, and every player who will make it, will make it regardless of the coach.

You don't clarify so much as you move goalposts. Remember when you had to walk back the ''Radulov would not make us better at all, by any amount'' claim to ''what I meant was that he wouldn't make us a contender.'' Lololol. Cuz I do.

Insert Price is Right loser theme music.

I also never made any 'wildly' optimistic predictions for Jonathan Drouin...I thought he'd at least be able to match what Radulov did and/or reach/exceed 60pts.

If that's 'wild'...then so be it.

''It will be more difficult for him to not get 60+ points than to get 60+ points.''

Nevar 4get.

 

[417]

Lol explain, specifically, what you mean by ''of course development matters'' if every single player who will bust, will bust regardless of the coach, and every player who will make it, will make it regardless of the coach.

You're trying too hard man - do you miss me or something?

You actually scoured the board for a post I 'liked' and turned it into crap I never said, just based on a freaking 'lilke'.

And now you want me to explain, specifically?

When I made a litany of posts on the matter last week, which you obviously, failed to understand (probably intentionally, no less).

You tell me what benefit there is from me of having this discussion with you, when the only thing you're interested in doing is trolling me cause you're bored? You don't want to read what I have to say...

You want to twist and turn it into what you want me to say, and then pass it off as my own thoughts.

Pass...

You don't clarify so much as you move goalposts.

I have no moved any goalposts and my thoughts on drafting/development, are well covered in my previous posts on the matter...feel free to look.

Remember when you had to walk back the ''Radulov would not make us better at all, by any amount'' claim to ''what I meant was that he wouldn't make us a contender.'' Lololol. Cuz I do.

Holy ****...AGAIN with Radulov.

FAM! GET OVER IT...I WAS WRONG ABOUT ALEX RADULOV!

''It will be more difficult for him to not get 60+ points than to get 60+ points.''

Nevar 4get.

Clearly not - you and a few others LOVE bringing up what I got wrong every other week, like clockwork...

But what I get right...it's crickets.

I mean, it's not enough that i've owned up to being wrong about Radulov, SEVERAL times here...it's not enough that I, unprompted, made a thread/post calling myself out for being wrong, it's not enough that I had "I was wrong about Alex Radulov" in my signature for 6 weeks.

You have to come here, on a weekly basis, unprompted, to poke me about what I said about Radulov or because I was 14pts off of what I thought Drouin could get easily?

SMDH...Whatever helps improve your life man...cause it sure seems like i'm at the center of it.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Il est poche

 

[NotProkofievian]

You're trying too hard man - do you miss me or something?

You actually scoured the board for a post I 'liked' and turned it into crap I never said, just based on a freaking 'lilke'.

And now you want me to explain, specifically?

When I made a litany of posts on the matter last week, which you obviously, failed to understand (probably intentionally, no less).

You tell me what benefit there is from me of having this discussion with you, when the only thing you're interested in doing is trolling me cause you're bored? You don't want to read what I have to say...

You want to twist and turn it into what you want me to say, and then pass it off as my own thoughts.

Pass...

I have no moved any goalposts and my thoughts on drafting/development, are well covered in my previous posts on the matter...feel free to look.

You know, I don't think there's a single claim that I've made on these boards that I wouldn't at least summarize if confronted on. This is dick tucking however you want to rationalize it. Embarrassing.

You have absolutely made the claim that coaches cannot make a player bust, or a bust into a player under any circumstances, and now you want to say that ''clearly development matters.'' Apparently now development can turn Drouin into a legitimate 1st line player instead of the flaming trash heap he was this year. All I want is an explanation to tie these two beliefs of yours together: development can't really do anything, and development can make all the difference.

Holy ****...AGAIN with Radulov.

FAM! GET OVER IT...I WAS WRONG ABOUT ALEX RADULOV!

Lol, yeah I know.

Clearly not - you and a few others LOVE bringing up what I got wrong every other week, like clockwork...

But what I get right...it's crickets.

I mean, it's not enough that i've owned up to being wrong about Radulov, SEVERAL times here...it's not enough that I, unprompted, made a thread/post calling myself out for being wrong, it's not enough that I had "I was wrong about Alex Radulov" in my signature for 6 weeks.

You have to come here, on a weekly basis, unprompted, to poke me about what I said about Radulov or because I was 14pts off of what I thought Drouin could get easily?

SMDH...Whatever helps improve your life man...cause it sure seems like i'm at the center of it.

Man, I haven't bugged you about Radulov for months whatchoo on about?

You just said that ''[you] also never made any 'wildly' optimistic predictions for Jonathan Drouin.'' I provided one. It was optimistic: wildly so. Not only did you predict that he'd do something that he's never done, in the presence of inferior linemates in Montreal (not a recipe for success), but you said that it would be difficult for him not to do it. You even specified how difficult it would be for him to not surpass: as difficult as it is to score 60 pts in the greatest league in the world.

Are you ready to admit that this was wildly optimistic? You can just say so, you don't have to go through all the theatrics this time.

 

[417]

You know, I don't think there's a single claim that I've made on these boards that I wouldn't at least summarize if confronted on. This is dick tucking however you want to rationalize it. Embarrassing.

I spent 3 freaking days last week having to explain, over and over and over again that I hold BOTH drafting AND development/coaching responsible for things.

You don't want to hear my opinion, you want to twist and turn what I say to fit your narrative of me. You've already illustrated that.

You have absolutely made the claim that coaches cannot make a player bust, or a bust into a player under any circumstances, and now you want to say that ''clearly development matters.''

More twisting and turning...your original stated that I said that development doesn't matter.

Now you've walked that back and changed things?

SMH

To answer this post - no, I don't think coaches can turn a player into a bust on their own.

So what?

Apparently now development can turn Drouin into a legitimate 1st line player instead of the flaming trash heap he was this year. All I want is an explanation to tie these two beliefs of yours together: development can't really do anything, and development can make all the difference.

WHERE DID I WRITE THIS?!?!?!?!?

I 'liked' a post from someone, where he said MANY THINGS on Drouin...you interpreted my post to mean, what you wish it meant.

But I NEVER said this lol

Lol, yeah I know.

It's like the crowning achievement of your life apparently.

Man, I haven't bugged you about Radulov for months whatchoo on about?

what? It's been 1 month exactly?

Guess you woke up this morning and just felt like it?

GET OVER IT!

You just said that ''[you] also never made any 'wildly' optimistic predictions for Jonathan Drouin.'' I provided one. It was optimistic: wildly so. Not only did you predict that he'd do something that he's never done, in the presence of inferior linemates in Montreal (not a recipe for success), but you said that it would be difficult for him not to do it. You even specified how difficult it would be for him to not surpass: as difficult as it is to score 60 pts in the greatest league in the world.

I thought Jonathan Drouin could get 60pts easily...he finished with 46pts in a year where everything went wrong for him and the team. That's 14pts off the mark.

Is it that wild?

So wild that you have to bring it up over and over and over again?

Are you ready to admit that this was wildly optimistic? You can just say so, you don't have to go through all the theatrics this time.

I was wrong (something you and I have discussed several times in the past as well)...I may end up being right in the future, but for last year, I was wrong.

I said so weeks ago in a conversation with you, for some freaking reason, you woke up today with the need to read it again.

Hope this helps tide you over...at least for a few weeks until you need my **** in yo mouth again.

 

[HBDay]

You know, I don't think there's a single claim that I've made on these boards that I wouldn't at least summarize if confronted on. This is dick tucking however you want to rationalize it. Embarrassing.

You have absolutely made the claim that coaches cannot make a player bust, or a bust into a player under any circumstances, and now you want to say that ''clearly development matters.'' Apparently now development can turn Drouin into a legitimate 1st line player instead of the flaming trash heap he was this year. All I want is an explanation to tie these two beliefs of yours together: development can't really do anything, and development can make all the difference.



Lol, yeah I know.



Man, I haven't bugged you about Radulov for months whatchoo on about?

You just said that ''[you] also never made any 'wildly' optimistic predictions for Jonathan Drouin.'' I provided one. It was optimistic: wildly so. Not only did you predict that he'd do something that he's never done, in the presence of inferior linemates in Montreal (not a recipe for success), but you said that it would be difficult for him not to do it. You even specified how difficult it would be for him to not surpass: as difficult as it is to score 60 pts in the greatest league in the world.

Are you ready to admit that this was wildly optimistic? You can just say so, you don't have to go through all the theatrics this time.

Lol, he was wrong about Alex Radulov.

 

[417]

Lol, he was wrong about Alex Radulov.

Is it troll 417 day or something ?

 

[417]

Obviously I had higher expectations for Drouin this season, but considering how bad the team was and that he was put at C I'll give him a pass for last year. He showed some better things as the season went on and he just turned 23, he's still young and there is time for him to improve.

Sergachev had 1 goal in his last 47 regular season games in Tampa playing on a far better coached and way more talented team. Seeing how our D play under JJD, Julien's preference to play clowns like Benn/Schlemko/Alzner, I can't even imagine how bad his development would've been hindered here and how he would've been in and out of the lineup each mistake so Julien could make sure to keep Benn in the lineup.

Hey @NotProkofievian ...

When I "liked" this post...I liked the bolded part.

I didn't realize I had to justify what part of a post I liked - but I should have known, every week I have to make a post that acknowledges anything I may have gotten wrong here, so this is just part of that I guess.

So hoping this quenches your 417 **** thirst.

 

[NotProkofievian]

More twisting and turning...your original stated that I said that development doesn't matter.

Now you've walked that back and changed things?

SMH

To answer this post - no, I don't think coaches can turn a player into a bust on their own.

So what?

I haven't changed anything. I'm asking a pretty straightforward question: how is it that now ''development matters'' when development cannot ever mean the difference between a player succeeding and failing? And how is that consistent

WHERE DID I WRITE THIS?!?!?!?!?

I 'liked' a post from someone, where he said MANY THINGS on Drouin...you interpreted my post to mean, what you wish it meant.

But I NEVER said this lol

It really is like pulling teeth with you. It's a pretty easy inference to draw. Even the bolded part that you said you specifically liked implied that Drouin was bad this year because of the situation in which he was placed by the administration. A better situation would therefore lead to a better result, or do you not believe that, in some impossible way?

It's like the crowning achievement of your life apparently.

Yeah, way to make things personal, really makes it seem like you've got the upper hand here.

what? It's been 1 month exactly?

Guess you woke up this morning and just felt like it?

GET OVER IT!

You sound upset.

I thought Jonathan Drouin could get 60pts easily...he finished with 46pts in a year where everything went wrong for him and the team. That's 14pts off the mark.

Is it that wild?

So wild that you have to bring it up over and over and over again?

Yes. Incredibly and amusingly so.

I was wrong (something you and I have discussed several times in the past as well)...I may end up being right in the future, but for last year, I was wrong.

I said so weeks ago in a conversation with you, for some freaking reason, you woke up today with the need to read it again.

Hope this helps tide you over...at least for a few weeks until you need my **** in yo mouth again.

Lol. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone this rustled on this forum before.

 

[417]

I haven't changed anything. I'm asking a pretty straightforward question: how is it that now ''development matters'' when development cannot ever mean the difference between a player succeeding and failing? And how is that consistent.

I've never argued that development doesn't matter...not once.

You want to discuss something I never said. I have very fruitful and productive conversations with the majority here, sometimes even with you.

But it's clear here, that you have no interest in debating this with me. You're more interested in fabricating arguments I haven't made, then challenging me on them.

Pass...I've made my views on drafting/development well known here, feel free to look them up.

It really is like pulling teeth with you. It's a pretty easy inference to draw. Even the bolded part that you said you specifically liked implied that Drouin was bad this year because of the situation in which he was placed by the administration. A better situation would therefore lead to a better result, or do you not believe that, in some impossible way?

The inference YOU drew is based on a post I liked.

You serious right now? Lol

If this isn't proof that you're trolling, I don't know what it is.

I liked his post, it doesn't mean I'm in lockstep agreement with everything he wrote.

It just means I 'liked' his post...you went out of your way to infer what my 'like' meant because you wanted my attention today.

Yeah, way to make things personal, really makes it seem like you've got the upper hand here.

You originally made it personal and continued to do so, I'm only responding in kind.

Don't start nothin'...won't be nothin'

you sound upset

Annoyed, not upset.

Yes. Incredibly and amusingly so.

Clearly...since you can't get over it.

Lol. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone this rustled on this forum before.

Is there a purpose to this conversation?

Or were you just looking for attention? Cause I've already told you the inference that cause you to post @ me was wrong.

So unless you've got more drivel for me to clear up, I think we're about done here.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I've never argued that development doesn't matter...not once.

You want to discuss something I never said. I have very fruitful and productive conversations with the majority here, sometimes even with you.

But it's clear here, that you have no interest in debating this with me. You're more interested in fabricating arguments I haven't made, then challenging me on them.

Pass...I've made my views on drafting/development well known here, feel free to look them up.

Yeah, I'm the one not interested in debate.

The inference YOU drew is based on a post I liked.

You serious right now? Lol

Yes. It's correct.

You originally made it personal and continued to do so, I'm only responding in kind.

Don't start nothin'...won't be nothin'

Lol, no, you're just upset. Maybe have a midol???

 

[Andrei79]

NotTrolololfievan lol.

The man who curb stomps you when you're down.

But truly, importance of development aside (and Drouin's awful, awful season, too), what are peoples hopes he actually does bring it next year. I mean, I'm not expecting a change in his play without the puck, but just being generally engaged in the play and not being pouty.