Speculation: Jets-Islanders...Hamonic-Trouba

[CodeE]

Oh damn well then you can send us Doughty for Enstrom.

Cool strawman bro.

A guy like Byfuglien is pretty much untradeable with his current contract. Like Kessel and Phaneuf before him, once you commit a lot of long-term money to a player like that at a high AAV, the trade value decreases.

I'm sure Phaneuf is a lot better that many defensemen making $3-$4M per, but his high contract made it so that Toronto could only get back a bunch of scraps from Ottawa in a trade.

But please continue with the "well I guess that means Crosby is less valuable than Brian Strait lololololol" line of arguing because it's much easier to knock down those strawmen.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Cool strawman bro.

A guy like Byfuglien is pretty much untradeable with his current contract. Like Kessel and Phaneuf before him, once you commit a lot of long-term money to a player like that at a high AAV, the trade value decreases.

I'm sure Phaneuf is a lot better that many defensemen making $3-$4M per, but his high contract made it so that Toronto could only get back a bunch of scraps from Ottawa in a trade.

But please continue with the "well I guess that means Crosby is less valuable than Brian Strait lololololol" line of arguing because it's much easier to knock down those strawmen.

Strawman?

I asked why people would say he has more value and all you said was that he's cheaper.

How about maybe another bullet point on that list.

Edit: Also, Buff's contract is fantastic.

 

[CodeE]

Strawman?

I asked why people would say he has more value and all you said was that he's cheaper.

How about maybe another bullet point on that list.

Edit: Also, Buff's contract is fantastic.

"All you said was that he's cheaper".

See, that's another logical fallacy. Ignore everything I said and sum it up using an incorrect, simple, easy-to-counter statement that a kindergartener would understand.

How about addressing what I'm actually saying instead? I trust the majority of hfboards is intelligent enough to comprehend the points I'm making without your spark notes.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

"All you said was that he's cheaper".

See, that's another logical fallacy. Ignore everything I said and sum it up using an incorrect, simple, easy-to-counter statement that a kindergartener would understand.

How about addressing what I'm actually saying instead? I trust the majority of hfboards is intelligent enough to comprehend the points I'm making without your spark notes.

So what you're trying to say is that your only argument is that he's cheaper.

Why else would you not address the skillgap.

I mean...if player A is good and expensive.....and player B is ok and cheap.....the only real reason player B gets any thought is because of his price.

Yes I am being intentionally daft because your point is so simple yet you're intentionally making it complex for....some unknown reason.

In terms of player value, Trouba is way ahead of Pulock. I guess Pulock being ******** and cheaper is a.....plus?

 

[jimmyemery]

"All you said was that he's cheaper".

See, that's another logical fallacy. Ignore everything I said and sum it up using an incorrect, simple, easy-to-counter statement that a kindergartener would understand.

How about addressing what I'm actually saying instead? I trust the majority of hfboards is intelligent enough to comprehend the points I'm making without your spark notes.

Just speaking scholarly, that's still a strawman.
Go on.
Keep winning your argument, though.

 

[jimmyemery]

So what you're trying to say is that your only argument is that he's cheaper.

Why else would you not address the skillgap.

I mean...if player A is good and expensive.....and player B is ok and cheap.....the only real reason player B gets any thought is because of his price.

Yes I am being intentionally daft because your point is so simple yet you're intentionally making it complex for....some unknown reason.

In terms of player value, Trouba is way ahead of Pulock. I guess Pulock being ******** and cheaper is a.....plus?

You can call his argument simplistic, and yell at him for being unintentionally dumb, but you're still saying the same thing, just simpler and trying to skew it to your side.
Ya know?

 

[Evil Little]

Cool strawman bro.

A guy like Byfuglien is pretty much untradeable with his current contract. Like Kessel and Phaneuf before him, once you commit a lot of long-term money to a player like that at a high AAV, the trade value decreases.

I'm sure Phaneuf is a lot better that many defensemen making $3-$4M per, but his high contract made it so that Toronto could only get back a bunch of scraps from Ottawa in a trade.

But please continue with the "well I guess that means Crosby is less valuable than Brian Strait lololololol" line of arguing because it's much easier to knock down those strawmen.

Byfuglien is absolutely tradable right now, but whatever.

The main issue here is that you're assuming Trouba's contract is going to be bad (and that Pulock's is going to be good). I don't know why. Only one of the two GMs tried to give Vanek $49 million, or whatever it was.

Once again, though, you're not acknowledging the many factors beyond AAV that impact the value of a contract: RFA years, trade clauses, term, etc.

It's funny that you would urge someone to "address what you're actually saying" because I explained on page 4 why Trouba at four years would have a very low AAV (after you said it was because I 'say so') and here you are continuing to assume that the Jets are terrified of paying good players well to play well, that Hamonic's contact has any benefit over Trouba's four RFA years (which is false), and that Pulock's two years of ELC make up the difference between him and Trouba.

This thread's a joke anyway, but...

 

[heilongjetsfan]

Even though Ryan O'Reilly is the better player, I'm sure many teams would rather trade for the 26-year-old Anders Lee at a reasonable $3.75M than 25-year-old O'Reilly at $7.5M.

If I'm Las Vegas and I'm building a team from scratch, yeah sure I might be more inclined to take ROR as my #1C. But most teams tend to take what a player makes into consideration in judging a player's value.

That's exactly why Garth Snow accepted Tyler Myers for Travis Hamonic. Cheaper + not as good = awesome plan.

Let's trade Buff and Scheif to Anaheim for Stoner and Noesen, too. It would be nice to have some more AHL callups!

 

[JetsHomer]

Lol at the thought the Oilers wouldn't be all over Buff if he was even remotely avaliable

 

[CodeE]

Oh boy Jets fans jumping down my throat

I guess one Jets fan explained why Trouba @ 4 years would have an extremely low AAV, so I guess that's set in stone and the rumors about Trouba demanding serious money to resign are all false. After an entire season of Habs fans saying Subban won't be moved and Oilers fans saying Hall won't be moved, you simply just to have to take Jets fans at their word that everything is going to go peachy keen for their organization, and all those rumors can't be true, no sir.

From my vantage point - a non-Winnipeg centered one, my interest in the Jets being comparable to my interest in the Habs, or Oilers, or Leafs, or Senators, or Canucks, or Flames, or any team other than my Isles or occasionally the Kings - is that Trouba is asking for serious cash, and Chevy isn't willing to meet his high demands. I might be wrong! It's happened before, but we'll just have to play the waiting game. If Trouba signs 6 years/4.5M, I'll happily eat my crow.

 

[Hunter368]

Not sure why anyone would seriously speculate on Trouba's demands (other then it's July and they're bored), considering the only facts known are that after one local reporter (of questionable reputation) puts out that Trouba might be looking for big bucks (7 mil), Trouba's agent publically and immediately shoots that claim down as being completely false. Then TSN runs with the local media guys story without any new source.

So the only thing we all know is that Trouba has stated no bridge deal and 7 mil is too high. Plus Trouba has stated he's happy as a Jet and wants to sign a long term deal here. Plus his best life long friend is on the team (Copp) and his brother works in the organization. Sounds like a guy who is invested in staying long term and just wants a good/fair deal going through contract negotiations. Not sure why anyone would expect anything else.

Anything long term (6-8 years) at 4.5 to 5.5 million Jets nation will be VERY happy. Anything starting with a 6+ per year is getting in the high range and might consider other options.

Relax people it's July only, loads of time left.

 

[lomiller1]

Quite easily if Trouba's contract demands are as high as rumored. Pulock has two ELC years left so it's quite fair to think a lot of teams would prefer the cheaper option.

What if Pulock decides to play in the KHL if the Isles refuse to trade him? Obviously this isn't intended to be a serious argument, it's only to demonstrate that an argument on "what if" isn't something worth considering, there is no point.

BTW the rumored contract demands are basically just where an agent would start if they were aiming for Hamilton's contract + 2 extra UFA years (for 8 total). Why wouldn't his agent start there, only an idiot would expect anything else.

Final point the notion that you should go for lesser players because they don't cost as much is a dead end, all you end up with is a cheap bottom feeding roster. First and foremost you need to worry about whether a player is good, if they aren't how much they make doesn't matter and Trouba would be the Isle's best D.

 

[lomiller1]

From my vantage point - a non-Winnipeg centered one, my interest in the Jets being comparable to my interest in the Habs, or Oilers, or Leafs, or Senators, or Canucks, or Flames, or any team other than my Isles or occasionally the Kings - is that Trouba is asking for serious cash, and Chevy isn't willing to meet his high demands. I might be wrong! It's happened before, but we'll just have to play the waiting game. If Trouba signs 6 years/4.5M, I'll happily eat my crow.

What on earth makes you think that's anywhere close to what he's worth? What makes you think the club only wants 6 years?

Or course he's not going to sign for that. Why on earth would he agree to sight for $1 million+ less than he's worth on a 6 year deal?

 

[LeapOnOver]

Didn't Snow just give Ladd $5.5M x 7 years?

I think you are really overvaluing AAV and not term. Trouba on a 4 year deal is pretty terrible because you basically lose him to UFA at his prime age. That's why most teams are trying to lock up good young D on long-term contracts coming out of their entry-level contract. Lock them up until 29 or 30 years of age and you will have gotten them at a decent cost during their prime years, instead of paying them their biggest contract for years beyond their prime (like Ladd).

I was replying to the poster Urban, you are missing the context of his statement. We weren't talking about locking anybody up, we were talking about the contract value vs. talent between Trouba and Hamonic.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

Oh boy Jets fans jumping down my throat

I guess one Jets fan explained why Trouba @ 4 years would have an extremely low AAV, so I guess that's set in stone and the rumors about Trouba demanding serious money to resign are all false. After an entire season of Habs fans saying Subban won't be moved and Oilers fans saying Hall won't be moved, you simply just to have to take Jets fans at their word that everything is going to go peachy keen for their organization, and all those rumors can't be true, no sir.

From my vantage point - a non-Winnipeg centered one, my interest in the Jets being comparable to my interest in the Habs, or Oilers, or Leafs, or Senators, or Canucks, or Flames, or any team other than my Isles or occasionally the Kings - is that Trouba is asking for serious cash, and Chevy isn't willing to meet his high demands. I might be wrong! It's happened before, but we'll just have to play the waiting game. If Trouba signs 6 years/4.5M, I'll happily eat my crow.

Remove Winnipeg and Trouba from the equation for a minute. The general strategy with the salary cap these days is to lock up young players to long term deals. A franchise needs to do one of two things coming out of the ELC.

1) Sign a short enough contract so that the player is still an RFA and the club retains some control over them.
2) Sign a long term deal to lock up those prime years. Often those extra few years will drive the price up.

The worst thing a team could do is sign a deal that just takes a player to UFA. If they do that then the players AAV should be way less than if they are buying UFA years.

So it's not about a sweet heart deal.
The length of the contract will effect the value big time.

Trouba's agent works around deadlines... it is very unlikely they sign until just before the World Cup.

So we should only see another 60 - 70 Trouba trade threads between now and then.

 

[LeapOnOver]

What on earth makes you think that's anywhere close to what he's worth? What makes you think the club only wants 6 years?

Or course he's not going to sign for that. Why on earth would he agree to sight for $1 million+ less than he's worth on a 6 year deal?

There is only one poster here that thinks Pulock is better than Trouba. You guys could probably just ignore it like everyone did with the guy who said Blake Wheeler is better than Sydney Crosby.

Well, i guess in retrospect people chose not to ignore it. Honestly, it's just one Islander's fan who thinks that.

I think Trouba is better than Hamonic, I doubt Code would say Pulock is better than Hamonic lol, but he probably thinks Hamonic is better than Subban.

 

[Whileee]

Oh boy Jets fans jumping down my throat

I guess one Jets fan explained why Trouba @ 4 years would have an extremely low AAV, so I guess that's set in stone and the rumors about Trouba demanding serious money to resign are all false. After an entire season of Habs fans saying Subban won't be moved and Oilers fans saying Hall won't be moved, you simply just to have to take Jets fans at their word that everything is going to go peachy keen for their organization, and all those rumors can't be true, no sir.

From my vantage point - a non-Winnipeg centered one, my interest in the Jets being comparable to my interest in the Habs, or Oilers, or Leafs, or Senators, or Canucks, or Flames, or any team other than my Isles or occasionally the Kings - is that Trouba is asking for serious cash, and Chevy isn't willing to meet his high demands. I might be wrong! It's happened before, but we'll just have to play the waiting game. If Trouba signs 6 years/4.5M, I'll happily eat my crow.

Why would Trouba sign for 6 x4.5. that's clearly below market value. He'll probably sign for something like 6 x 5.25 or for much longer, like 8 x 6. Either way he'll have a few UFA years and two or more years than Hamonic before UFA. Hamonic has a very good contract, but the Jets have planned around locking a terrific young defenseman into their core long-term. They shouldn't downgrade in future performance and term to save a bit if money in the short term.

 

[Whileee]

Remove Winnipeg and Trouba from the equation for a minute. The general strategy with the salary cap these days is to lock up young players to long term deals. A franchise needs to do one of two things coming out of the ELC.

1) Sign a short enough contract so that the player is still an RFA and the club retains some control over them.
2) Sign a long term deal to lock up those prime years. Often those extra few years will drive the price up.

The worst thing a team could do is sign a deal that just takes a player to UFA. If they do that then the players AAV should be way less than if they are buying UFA years.

So it's not about a sweet heart deal.
The length of the contract will effect the value big time.

Trouba's agent works around deadlines... it is very unlikely they sign until just before the World Cup.

So we should only see another 60 - 70 Trouba trade threads between now and then.

Yup. Trouba is going to set some kind of record for "over-rated" players that generate trade proposals from fans of other teams.

 

[sully1410]

Quite easily if Trouba's contract demands are as high as rumored. Pulock has two ELC years left so it's quite fair to think a lot of teams would prefer the cheaper option.

Doesn't make him worth more. Teams that are looking for a top pairing defenseman will still pay the premium t get a player like Trouba.

Pulock isn't going to return more in trade then Trouba because he is worse then Trouba.

Trouba is also cost controlled and has no arbitration rights. No reason to think that the contract is going to be unreasonable, when the market has already been set by comparable defensemen.

 

[sully1410]

Oh boy Jets fans jumping down my throat

I guess one Jets fan explained why Trouba @ 4 years would have an extremely low AAV, so I guess that's set in stone and the rumors about Trouba demanding serious money to resign are all false. After an entire season of Habs fans saying Subban won't be moved and Oilers fans saying Hall won't be moved, you simply just to have to take Jets fans at their word that everything is going to go peachy keen for their organization, and all those rumors can't be true, no sir.

From my vantage point - a non-Winnipeg centered one, my interest in the Jets being comparable to my interest in the Habs, or Oilers, or Leafs, or Senators, or Canucks, or Flames, or any team other than my Isles or occasionally the Kings - is that Trouba is asking for serious cash, and Chevy isn't willing to meet his high demands. I might be wrong! It's happened before, but we'll just have to play the waiting game. If Trouba signs 6 years/4.5M, I'll happily eat my crow.

He is an RFA, with no arbitration rights. He'll sign for what he's worth or he'll sit. It's as simple as that.

He can ask for all the money in the world, but it doesn't mean that he is going to get it.

Have you seen our GM in action? Did you learn nothing from how the Jets handled Evander Kane?

 

[GoJetsGo55]

You can call his argument simplistic, and yell at him for being unintentionally dumb, but you're still saying the same thing, just simpler and trying to skew it to your side.
Ya know?

No I hear you. I get what he's saying too. Some team against the cap isn't going to be interested in Trouba but that doesn't change the players value at all.

 

[THall4]

Lol at the thought the Oilers wouldn't be all over Buff if he was even remotely avaliable

lol. Havent been keeping up with this thread...but yah...Oilers would be all over Buff

 

[LeapOnOver]

He is an RFA, with no arbitration rights. He'll sign for what he's worth or he'll sit. It's as simple as that.

He can ask for all the money in the world, but it doesn't mean that he is going to get it.

Have you seen our GM in action? Did you learn nothing from how the Jets handled Evander Kane?

You mean trading him when his value was at an all time low? Yeah...we saw that.

 

[Whileee]

You mean trading him when his value was at an all time low? Yeah...we saw that.

His all time low value was Armia, Lemieux, Roslovic and Stafford, and whatever the difference is between Bogo and Myers. Cool. And everyone said he was over-rated...

 

[Hobby Bull]

You mean trading him when his value was at an all time low? Yeah...we saw that.

Not to go too far off thread, but...this just in... Evander Kane's trade value is going up!?