Tribute Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Goodbye and Good Luck

[Goalfield22]

Yeah because regular season play is so much harder.

Kid scored 9 goals in 29 playoff games. He's a gamer and scores when it matters. But he can't score for the lifeof him, right?

You are both wrong. Of course he can score, he just can't do it consistently, and it makes his overall numbers, even with his playoff success, extremely underwhelming.

 

[Johnny31]

I don't think too many are saying KK is a finished product either. More like a guy that will improve but how much he improves is limited.

Okay I can agree with your opinion. Im just reading some absurd stuff about progression range of the two players. I was not pointing you in particular.

I think KK have a lot of room to improve. I dont think he will ever reach his upside .... but if he do, we gonna hate the fact we let him go the canes. Agree to disagree with you on his upside.

 

[JianYang]

100% agree. Lets see if they learned their lesson on Norlinder and Guhle in camp this year. They should only make it if they show exceptional ability and with D, it starts with play in their own end. Offensive ability is bonus but they have to be trusted in their own end first.

It really needs to be done on a case by case basis, and I think the habs have generally favoured bringing up their guys quickly, with limited success.

If we go simoly by their performance in training camps, KK, and Mete both earned their keep, but it probably wasn't in their best long term interest to make it so quickly.

 

[Goalfield22]

Okay I can agree with your opinion. Im just reading some absurd stuff about progression range of the two players. I was not pointing you in particular.

I think KK have a lot of room to improve. I dont think he will ever reach his upside .... but if he do, we gonna hate the fact we let him go the canes. Agree to disagree with you on his upside.

I think we will be fine with it. We will still have a decent 2C with a solid contract on the team. Suzuki and Caufield are the future of this team up front, either way.

 

[Wats]

“Yeah, it is a lesson. I can say that,” Bergevin said. “To be honest, I’m not perfect. We do make sometimes not the right decision, but it’s always to try to do it for the right reasons. I remember he had a great camp, good first half, I remember he was playing very well and I’m like, ‘OK, he is ready.’ But now I’m looking back three or four years later and the way it happens.

“But also, there’s things that I saw the last two years that I don’t think that would have changed. It could have, to a degree, but there’s other stuff that I know it’s more than just going back to Finland. But to your answer, yes, it’s something that we’ll watch closely moving forward.”

How anyone can read these quotes or even listen to Bergevin's press conference yesterday and still not come away with the conclusion that he admitted it was a mistake to graduate him at 18yrs old is beyond me.

And somehow, I'M the one who doesn't know what i'm talking about...like I just made these quotes up.

At least now we can put to rest the debate of whether it's possible to rush prospects to NHL. There has been lot of talk whether it'd make a difference, now the Habs management itself finally admitting that there might be something to bring in prospects too early. Hopefully they can avoid the same mistakes with Guhle/Romanov. Caufield hopefully can be the Suzuki/Gallagher aberration and succeed right away without much NHL development.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I disagree with you last point : I don't know why or how, but a very high number of center hit their ceiling at 23-24 years old. Until then, I don't judge a product finished for a center.

I don't think KK is finished at the age of 21. I do expect him to grow and improve. But to a point where it makes us regret it? Not sure about that and he has to improve his skating which is not easy to do. Not after he has been working at that for a while now.

The biggest problem is we don't have a development league sample size after his age 17 season. Why? Cause we rushed him from bottom 2C in the Finish league at age 17 to 3C in the NHL at age 18 and asked him to play a 200' game. He's good but how good is the question. Basically, his best development resume is his age U18 championship and that's how people started considering him a mid round value to top 10 value.

Let me ask you this. If KK was drafted 15th and only played his 1st year last season at age 20 and got 30 pts. Would you be worried about him busting out if we gave up on him? I think the 3rd OA narrative has people paranoid

 

[Captain Mountain]

You are both wrong. Of course he can score, he just can't do it consistently, and it makes his overall numbers, even with his playoff success, extremely underwhelming.

Depends on expectations. For instance, he literally just turned 21. And he has a slightly better 5v5 G/60 and 5v5 P/60 over the last 3 years than a guy like Dvorak.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Okay I can agree with your opinion. Im just reading some absurd stuff about progression range of the two players. I was not pointing you in particular.

I think KK have a lot of room to improve. I dont think he will ever reach his upside .... but if he do, we gonna hate the fact we let him go the canes. Agree to disagree with you on his upside.

It's all good. Things can get heated and carried out of the way at times. I honesty feel some will exaggerate to prove weak points which can be annoying. But at the end of the day, KK is valued but how much is he valued? Subjective to who you ask. I believe he will improve but he has a lot to improve on to be a legit 2C where it comes back to burn us. And he's going to play wing this year so even if he puts up 55 pts, he still has to learn how to play center effectively for us to regret it.

Dvorak is a good fix for us and we got him on a value contract throughout his prime years. He's very competitive and strong on his skates. Not afraid to go to the next and I feel his competitive nature will bring out the best of him in Montreal.

 

[Goalfield22]

Depends on expectations. For instance, he literally just turned 21. And he has a slightly better 5v5 G/60 and 5v5 P/60 over the last 3 years than a guy like Dvorak.

I am not talking about expectations. I am talking about right now. I get it he has potential. This is not the subject of this discussion.

 

[Schooner Guy]

In a redraft right now. Where do you think KK even lands? Late first to early 2nd?

LOL! He has 8 playoff goals.

 

[417]

At least now we can put to rest the debate of whether it's possible to rush prospects to NHL. There has been lot of talk whether it'd make a difference, now the Habs management itself finally admitting that there might be something to bring in prospects too early. Hopefully they can avoid the same mistakes with Guhle/Romanov. Caufield hopefully can be the Suzuki/Gallagher aberration and succeed right away without much NHL development.

I still think the discussion needs to be nuanced and needs to be a case-by-case basis, both player an organization.

 

[Goalfield22]

LOL! He has 8 playoff goals.

It's those playoff goals that have kept his value afloat. He did real well getting those points. He needed them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Depends on expectations. For instance, he literally just turned 21. And he has a slightly better 5v5 G/60 and 5v5 P/60 over the last 3 years than a guy like Dvorak.

KK's production or offensive shot/vision was never in question. It's the parts of the game that don't show up on the scoresheet that is in question. Faceoffs, ability to handle pressure and faster skaters cause his skating is below average.

Why was KK benched?

1) Because he was not putting up points
or
2) Because he had lack of attention to details, was not winning faceoffs, and was not strong on his skates?

NHL is a skating game. If you don't have fast skating where you can burn guys, you better be strong on your skates and also physically strong so you can use edge work and force your way around guys. Forget everything else, this is a problem with KK and it might take him years to figure that part out

* Drafted KK as a long term project at center.
* I believe he had knee or some sort of leg injury a year before his draft year?
* We expected him to work on his skating where it improves. Has his skating improved since his age 18 season which is 2 years after his age 16 injury?

 

[Goalfield22]

KK's production or offensive shot/vision was never in question. It's the parts of the game that don't show up on the scoresheet that is in question. Faceoffs, ability to handle pressure and faster skaters cause his skating is below average.

Why was KK benched?

1) Because he was not putting up points
or
2) Because he had lack of attention to details, was not winning faceoffs, and was not strong on his skates?

Yes, the eye test is what wins out here. He often looked like the worst forward out there. His line often looked the weakest, no matter who was on it with him. Suzuki, Danault and Staal's lines all had roles and were consistent. KK was just there. He scored some important goals, and we needed him, but it doesn't change the fact he was weak out there most of the time. Replacing him with Evans was the right choice.

Having said that, I still like KK and wish him the best with Carolina. I was hoping we could keep him here on a bridge for the next 2 years to see what he could become. That ship has sailed.

 

[Habs Halifax]

LOL! He has 8 playoff goals.

What type of goals is he scoring though? Is he Johnny on the spot or is he generating those scoring chances as a center? From what I have seen, he's not driving the play. Still young yes and he needs to get strong lower body to be able to hold onto the puck longer IMO.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, the eye test is what wins out here. He often looked like the worst forward out there. His line often looked the weakest, no matter who was on it with him. Suzuki, Danault and Staal's lines all had roles and were consistent. KK was just there. He scored some important goals, and we needed him, but it doesn't change the fact he was weak out there most of the time. Replacing him with Evans was the right choice.

Having said that, I still like KK and wish him the best with Carolina. I was hoping we could keep him here on a bridge for the next 2 years to see what he could become. That ship has sailed.

We see it the same. I value him but does he burn us cause he busts out? Well, he needs to improve his skating and drive the play more before I accept that. He could put up 55 pts on wing and I would still not consider that a concern.

Pts is not the sole factor. Does he become a gamer where you can lean on him heavy at both ends and can he make his wingers better?

Look at Tatar and Domi. Pts is not what makes complete NHL players and guys who are valued year after year. What do they do when time and space is reduced? That's a more important area to evaluate

 

[BarracudaMtl]

KK's production or offensive shot/vision was never in question. It's the parts of the game that don't show up on the scoresheet that is in question. Faceoffs, ability to handle pressure and faster skaters cause his skating is below average.

Why was KK benched?

1) Because he was not putting up points
or
2) Because he had lack of attention to details, was not winning faceoffs, and was not strong on his skates?

NHL is a skating game. If you don't have fast skating where you can burn guys, you better be strong on your skates and also physically strong so you can use edge work and force your way around guys. Forget everything else, this is a problem with KK and it might take him years to figure that part out

* Drafted KK as a long term project at center.
* I believe he had knee or some sort of leg injury a year before his draft year?
* We expected him to work on his skating where it improves. Has his skating improved since his age 18 season which is 2 years after his age 16 injury?

 

[Habs Halifax]

The elephant in the room is his below average skating. He can get stronger and he can improve offensive output yes. How much can he improve his skating and become a center coaches lean on heavy?

 

[Captain Mountain]

I am not talking about expectations. I am talking about right now. I get it he has potential. This is not the subject of this discussion.

Right now its not entirely clear Dvorak will be better than Kotkaniemi next season, just as he wasn't all that better last season. But a lot of people on here have a grass is always greener mindset.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Right now its not entirely clear Dvorak will be better than Kotkaniemi next season, just as he wasn't all that better last season. But a lot of people on here have a grass is always greener mindset.

Nah... Dvorak was better than KK last year. And the things we are hearing about Dvorak from other players and executives is something you are grossly overlooking. This is not some grass is greener narrative where we are reaching. Dvorak was a piece many teams had their eyes on.

Don't look at his point totals only. Look at his usage and how difficult he is to play against. I'm in a fantasy hockey pool that has more than goals/assist scoring categories and Dvorak was a very valuable piece to pick up last year. I knew of him before but last year was when I started to take notice.

When I evaluate a guy, I try to nit pick. With Dvorak, it's hard to nit pick an area that has glaring flaws. I believe we picked him up at the right time and it's similar to Petry when we acquired him. We got him right after the time he matured. Dvorak will be a valued asset in his prime (age 25+).

 

[Goalfield22]

We see it the same. I value him but does he burn us cause he busts out? Well, he needs to improve his skating and drive the play more before I accept that. He could put up 55 pts on wing and I would still not consider that a concern.

Pts is not the sole factor. Does he become a gamer where you can lean on him heavy at both ends and can he make his wingers better?

Look at Tatar and Domi. Pts is not what makes complete NHL players and guys who are valued year after year. What do they do when time and space is reduced? That's a more important area to evaluate

I agree. Points are not everything. I tend to focus on them with KK because his intangibles are even worse. Him not being able to stay on his skates isn't just a joke. It's reality. KK has two things going for him: his powerplay points and his age. Pro-KK people tend to focus on these two things for a reason.

 

[Sorinth]

Nah... Dvorak was better than KK last year. And the things we are hearing about Dvorak from other players and executives is something you are grossly overlooking. This is not some grass is greener narrative where we are reaching. Dvorak was a piece many teams had their eyes on.

Dvorak was better last year but the poster you quoted talked about this upcoming season and that's where it's less clear since Kotkaniemi has much more room for growth. I'm not sure it would've really surprised anyone if KK in a 2nd line center role with us would've produced 45 points for us, which is probably what we should expect from Dvorak.

 

[HabsQC]

Hes going to get booed hard the next time he plays in the bell center

You mean everytime

 

[Goalfield22]

Nah... Dvorak was better than KK last year. And the things we are hearing about Dvorak from other players and executives is something you are grossly overlooking. This is not some grass is greener narrative where we are reaching. Dvorak was a piece many teams had their eyes on.

Don't look at his point totals only. Look at his usage and how difficult he is to play against. I'm in a fantasy hockey pool that has more than goals/assist scoring categories and Dvorak was a very valuable piece to pick up last year. I knew of him before but last year was when I started to take notice.

When I evaluate a guy, I try to nit pick. With Dvorak, it's hard to nit pick an area that has glaring flaws. I believe we picked him up at the right time and it's similar to Petry when we acquired him. We got him right after the time he matured. Dvorak will be a valued asset in his prime (age 25+).

A "grass is greener" argument from someone who only talks about potential is pretty ironic. Dvorak is a much better player right now, AINEC.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I agree. Points are not everything. I tend to focus on them with KK because his intangibles are even worse. Him not being able to stay on his skates isn't just a joke. It's reality. KK has two things going for him: his powerplay points and his age. Pro-KK people tend to focus on these two things for a reason.

Domi was voted to be more valuable than Price after his 1st season with us cause he put up 72 pts. Tatar was considered a top line LW when people were trying to shop him for futures... cause he had good point totals for LW guys. Points are important but having complete games with little flaws is what makes valued NHL assets.

Expecting KK to improve his skating is the same hope we had with Mete improving on his shot.