Tribute Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Goodbye and Good Luck

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Schooner Guy

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Jun 23, 2006
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I don't see value in KK. He was a mid 1st round pick when we selected him at 3OA. I don't see him being much better today. I was more agreeing with a late 1st than a 2nd. A 2nd I would not agree with. A late first seems about right. Wasn't he ranked around 15th his draft year

He was #5 on Bob McK's list leading up to the draft which is a consensus of 10 NHL team execs.

Late 1st rounder is silly too. Most late 1st rounders never collect an NHL pension.
 
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Goalfield22

In Bilbo We Trust
Aug 31, 2021
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LOL!!! A potential contender just paid him $6.1m for the upcoming season. Elliotte Friedman said he talked to many GMs on the weekend who all believe KK will be a really good player.

I get that you'd take a bullet for your idol Bergie but to say KK might not go in the 1st if the 2018 draft was to be held over again is completely asinine! And if he wouldn't go in the 1st, what does that say about Bergie who drafted him #3, was responsible for his development and made the call to keep him in the NHL at age 18?

And just for argument's sake, here are the players I would rank above him:

Dahlin
Svechnikov
Tkachuk
Hughes
Boqvist
Bouchard
Wahlstrom
Dobson
Farabee
Smith
Miller
Sandin

So, yeah, mid 1st to late 1st.
 

Schooner Guy

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Jun 23, 2006
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And just for argument's sake, here are the players I would rank above him:

Dahlin
Svechnikov
Tkachuk
Hughes
Boqvist
Bouchard
Wahlstrom
Dobson
Farabee
Smith
Miller
Sandin

So, yeah, mid 1st to late 1st.

So Bergie really screwed up on this one then eh?

With all the extreme Bergie haters on on this forum blinded by their rage, I guess it's ok to have an extreme Bergie fanatic blinded by love.
 

Goalfield22

In Bilbo We Trust
Aug 31, 2021
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So Bergie really screwed up on this one then eh?

With all the extreme Bergie haters on on this forum blinded by their rage, I guess it's ok to have an extreme Bergie fanatic blinded by love.

Yeah, he did screw up on this one. It's a good thing he was able to fix the situation, though. A 1st and a 3rd was a really good return for him.

If I have blind love for MB, you have blind love for KK.

Do you disagree with any names I have on that list?
 

Schooner Guy

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Jun 23, 2006
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Yeah, he did screw up on this one. It's a good thing he was able to fix the situation, though. A 1st and a 3rd was a really good return for him.

Bergie did a great job salvaging the most from a bad situation created by many of his missteps. He doesn't leave many stones unturned.
 

Goalfield22

In Bilbo We Trust
Aug 31, 2021
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Bergie did a great job salvaging the most from a bad situation created by many of his missteps. He doesn't leave many stones unturned.

So you agree KK was a waste as 3OA? Both now and in the future? I just want to make sure I have your position straight.
 

417

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Feb 20, 2003
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I feel like Montreal, or any high pressure market, is not a place to roll the dice on whether they are ready. If we were to dive into looking at the development success stories from Bergevin era, there seems to be a common trend of the players being dominant in previous stage prior to joining Montreal. They also produced almost immediately and kept a consistent role.
Yeah agreed and I think I underestimated this factor but it's a real one.

1) Gallagher ended junior as one of the few prospects in recent history with 3 straight 40+ goal seasons in WHL before 20. Due to lockout started in AHL and was named an all star. Once the season started started producing right out of the gate and never looked back.

2) Suzuki played his final 2 years in OHL, lit up the playoffs in his final year. Came in as a rookie and after his first 6 games with only 1 point, started to produce (had 12 points in next 20 games to end of November). They kept giving him icetime and PP minutes and they have not really punished him for those cold streaks where he looks like he's not trying.

3) Caufield played in NCAA at age 18/19, dominated in his 2nd year. Signed contract and started producing right away. They kept giving him offensive opportunity and if they leave him with Suzuki/with 1st PP time this season I think they are doing him right. If they start benching him and putting him on 4th line with no PP time, I'd be saying he is better off in AHL working on whatever they feel he is lacking against easier competition.

Tinordi/Juulsen/Fleury/Mete/DLR/McCarron/Romanov/Kotkaniemi are all players who for whatever reason all played in NHL at young age without ever really being that good to begin with yet in their previous stage. They all looked like they can be a NHL regulars. I hope I'm wrong with Romanov but I really don't like the path they are taking with him and feel like they are better off leaving him in KHL to actually be a top 4 D or play him in AHL as top pairing. It's very reminiscent of Mete and it's easy to forget how highly regarded he was as a rookie. I really hope they leave Norlinder off this roster.
All good examples. Can't say I disagree.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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I feel like Montreal, or any high pressure market, is not a place to roll the dice on whether they are ready. If we were to dive into looking at the development success stories from Bergevin era, there seems to be a common trend of the players being dominant in previous stage prior to joining Montreal. They also produced almost immediately and kept a consistent role.

1) Gallagher ended junior as one of the few prospects in recent history with 3 straight 40+ goal seasons in WHL before 20. Due to lockout started in AHL and was named an all star. Once the season started started producing right out of the gate and never looked back.

2) Suzuki played his final 2 years in OHL, lit up the playoffs in his final year. Came in as a rookie and after his first 6 games with only 1 point, started to produce (had 12 points in next 20 games to end of November). They kept giving him icetime and PP minutes and they have not really punished him for those cold streaks where he looks like he's not trying.

3) Caufield played in NCAA at age 18/19, dominated in his 2nd year. Signed contract and started producing right away. They kept giving him offensive opportunity and if they leave him with Suzuki/with 1st PP time this season I think they are doing him right. If they start benching him and putting him on 4th line with no PP time, I'd be saying he is better off in AHL working on whatever they feel he is lacking against easier competition.

Tinordi/Juulsen/Fleury/Mete/DLR/McCarron/Romanov/Kotkaniemi are all players who for whatever reason all played in NHL at young age without ever really being that good to begin with yet in their previous stage. They all looked like they can be a NHL regulars. I hope I'm wrong with Romanov but I really don't like the path they are taking with him and feel like they are better off leaving him in KHL to actually be a top 4 D or play him in AHL as top pairing. It's very reminiscent of Mete and it's easy to forget how highly regarded he was as a rookie. I really hope they leave Norlinder off this roster.

I don't think its just the market. I think the Habs in general do a poor job developing skills of players. Bergevin in general likes to talk about it being up to the players when it comes to development, but at some point he's going to have to speak to the fact that he's much more comfortable trading for guys who are the point in their careers where they know what they are than he is developing young guys.

We can point to successes like Gallagher, Suzuki and Caufield, but most of their development probably happened before they were part of the Habs organization. They were instructed and developed in Junior/College and simply allowed to acclimatize when they made the NHL. Same with Lehkonen. Which is fine, since that's the case with lots of players, but you need to see actual development if you don't want to spend lots of cap space on middle of the lineup veterans. I criticize Bergevin for not having true star players on the team, but that's a function of strategy and drafting more than anything else. But the fact that the Habs need to sign guys like Chiarot, Edmundson and Savard year after year is a criticism of player development.

A non-obvious example of good player development is Pittsburgh. One of the reasons they've remained competitive with lots of vets is that they've been able to fill holes in their line-up with mid-round picks or undrafted guys to surround their expensive stars. And to date, the Bergevin-era Habs have been objectively awful at that.

EDIT: These quotes are what I was thinking about with this post:





That's a pretty antiquated way of looking at education or development. Different players need different tools and if you can't recognize that then you probably shouldn't be drafting players, you should be trading picks for more established guys that you know will use your tools best.
 
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Schooner Guy

Registered User
Jun 23, 2006
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So you agree KK was a waste as 3OA? Both now and in the future? I just want to make sure I have your position straight.

I was one of few on this board who wanted Tkachuk in 2018 (you can pull up the 2018 draft threads). Once KK was drafted, I was pulling for him.

The main missteps were throwing him to the wolves by putting him in the NHL at age 18 (should have played in Finland and in the WJC). This short sighted move not only messed up his development but it also burned through his ELC two years too soon which put Bergie in the predicament he found himself in last week. Also, he should have locked KK up earlier in the summer before the Canes signed Svechnikov.

Vegas odds have us missing the playoffs this upcoming season. So MB might have saved a little bit of face by trading for Dvorak but he's going to look awfully dumb if Arizona gets to use our 1st rounder between 11 and 16 and we're using Carolina's 1st in the late-20's.
 
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Goalfield22

In Bilbo We Trust
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I was one of few on this board who wanted Tkachuk in 2018 (you can pull up the 2018 draft threads). Once KK was drafted, I was pulling for him.

The main missteps were throwing him to the wolves by putting him in the NHL at age 18 (should have played in Finland and in the WJC). This short sighted move not only messed up his development but it also burned through his ELC two years way too soon which put Bergie in the predicament he found himself in last week. Also, he should have locked KK up earlier in the summer before the Canes signed Svechnikov.

Vegas odds have us missing the playoffs this upcoming season. So MB might have saved a little bit of face by trading for Dvorak but he's going to look awfully dumb if Arizona gets to use our 1st rounder between 11 and 16 and we're using Carolina's 1st in the late-20's.

LOL Vegas knows nothing. They had the Leafs winning the whole thing last year. The NHL is a very hard league to predict. I wouldn't be using Vegas odds for anything other than a laugh.

It would still be worth it to get a legit 2C. This is the first time in a LONG time we have had two legit top 6 Cs. I look forward to this season quite a bit.
 
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Schooner Guy

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Jun 23, 2006
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And just for argument's sake, here are the players I would rank above him:

Dahlin
Svechnikov
Tkachuk
Hughes
Boqvist
Bouchard
Wahlstrom
Dobson
Farabee
Smith
Miller
Sandin

So, yeah, mid 1st to late 1st.

I'd take KK ahead of Boqvist, Wahlstrom, Miller, Sandin for sure. The jury's still out with Bouchard, Dobson, Smith, Farabee. We'll see where they all are in 2-3 years.

KK is the only center on your list (LW this year in Carolina but plan is for center after Trochek leaves) which give him some added premium value.

Again, Carolina traded a 1st and 3rd for his rights AND are paying him $6.1m. To suggest he'd go late-1st or in the 2nd is silly.
 
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Schooner Guy

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Jun 23, 2006
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LOL Vegas knows nothing. They had the Leafs winning the whole thing last year. The NHL is a very hard league to predict. I wouldn't be using Vegas odds for anything other than a laugh.

It would still be worth it to get a legit 2C. This is the first time in a LONG time we have had two legit top 6 Cs. I look forward to this season quite a bit.

OK Vegas oddsmakers AND most hockey analysts have us missing the playoffs. That doesn't mean we will obviously but it's certainly going to be a tough task in the East.
 

bsl

Registered User
Oct 9, 2009
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So Bergie really screwed up on this one then eh?

With all the extreme Bergie haters on on this forum blinded by their rage, I guess it's ok to have an extreme Bergie fanatic blinded by love.
Yeah I am blinded by my RAGE at bergie. I love Habs but the team is about 100 on my list for worries these days. BLINDED BY RAGE! Lol.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
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LOL Vegas knows nothing. They had the Leafs winning the whole thing last year. The NHL is a very hard league to predict. I wouldn't be using Vegas odds for anything other than a laugh.

It would still be worth it to get a legit 2C. This is the first time in a LONG time we have had two legit top 6 Cs. I look forward to this season quite a bit.

The Habs had Suzuki and Danault just last year.
 
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Wats

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Mar 8, 2006
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I don't think its just the market. I think the Habs in general do a poor job developing skills of players. Bergevin in general likes to talk about it being up to the players when it comes to development, but at some point he's going to have to speak to the fact that he's much more comfortable trading for guys who are the point in their careers where they know what they are than he is developing young guys.

We can point to successes like Gallagher, Suzuki and Caufield, but most of their development probably happened before they were part of the Habs organization. They were instructed and developed in Junior/College and simply allowed to acclimatize when they made the NHL. Same with Lehkonen. Which is fine, since that's the case with lots of players, but you need to see actual development if you don't want to spend lots of cap space on middle of the lineup veterans. I criticize Bergevin for not having true star players on the team, but that's a function of strategy and drafting more than anything else. But the fact that the Habs need to sign guys like Chiarot, Edmundson and Savard year after year is a criticism of player development.

A non-obvious example of good player development is Pittsburgh. One of the reasons they've remained competitive with lots of vets is that they've been able to fill holes in their line-up with mid-round picks or undrafted guys to surround their expensive stars. And to date, the Bergevin-era Habs have been objectively awful at that.

EDIT: These quotes are what I was thinking about with this post:





That's a pretty antiquated way of looking at education or development. Different players need different tools and if you can't recognize that then you probably shouldn't be drafting players, you should be trading picks for more established guys that you know will use your tools best.

Those quotes definitely shedding light why development has been so poor in the results side.
 

Ozmodiar

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Oct 18, 2017
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Pronman released his top 50 under 23. No KK. I saw 10 or 11 from the 2018 draft. (Quickly scanned list, so give or take)

/ 2 Habs. Suzuki and CC
 
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