Tribute Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Goodbye and Good Luck part II

[417]

Clearly. I kind of figured it would happen. He'll slowly drop down, I'm sure.

They clearly want to give every opportunity for him to shine, given the offer sheet and what they're paying him.

But that just makes sense.

I mean you have a player you've invested a lot into, it only makes sense to want to place him in the best position possible.

 

[goforit]

I'm not sure how he "tried to make a pass" to a guy on the boards, but it went backwards (backhand pass) to the slot. It looked like a droppass breakout to a guy who wasn't there. Was he supposed to be there? Who knows, still very dangerous play to make there and a sure way to get stapled to the bench.

Well, I'll try to explain it in english but as it's not my first language, it could be harsh a little bit.

If you look closely, you'll remark that he tips the puck with the back of his stick blade to get a better angle to pass the puck to #72. He's even looking at him but he swings « in the butter » (might be a very bad translation of a french expression, but I guess you understand). He's definately not passing it in the slot.

That being said, that's a bad play and you can see he hasn't improve on all his flaws.

 

[Schwang]

They clearly want to give every opportunity for him to shine, given the offer sheet and what they're paying him.

But that just makes sense.

I mean you have a player you've invested a lot into, it only makes sense to want to place him in the best position possible.

The owner wants to save face too. However, it's highly unlikely KK lives up to that contract.

 

[417]

The owner wants to save face too. However, it's highly unlikely KK lives up to that contract.

I don't know...Sebastian Aho is a really, really good player to play with.

And KK is not void of talent.

We'll see.

 

[Schwang]

I don't know...Sebastian Aho is a really, really good player to play with.

And KK is not void of talent.

We'll see.

Yes, he is. But does that mean KK deserves to be there?

 

[417]

Yes, he is. But does that mean KK deserves to be there?

NHL isn't about "deserving"...they have a young player they paid a steep price to acquire, they want to put him in the best situation possible.

That's typically what teams do.

 

[Schwang]

NHL isn't about "deserving"...they have a young player they paid a steep price to acquire, they want to put him in the best situation possible.

That's typically what teams do.

We're both actually right. KK can play 1st line as an opportunity, but will he deserve to stay there? That's up to him. I personally don't see him as a first liner, or a good second line centre. A second line winger, maybe.
Bottom line is, he wouldn't have gotten the same opportunity in Montreal. He's not beating anyone out to play top minutes, nor would he play with an elite guy like Aho.

 

[Prendan Brust]

I wonder what the effect will be in the Canes' locker room. These guys know why he was handed a first line spot, not sure they like the reasonning behind it. If he delivers, they'll get over it, if he doesn't and sticks there anyway, I guess some will start to pout...

 

[DAChampion]

We're both actually right. KK can play 1st line as an opportunity, but will he deserve to stay there? That's up to him. I personally don't see him as a first liner, or a good second line centre. A second line winger, maybe.

The Habs player Danault with Pacioretty and Radulov in 2017 and he was absolutely awful in that role. He did not "deserve" that role. However, it paid off as a long term investment as it helped Danault improve from being a replacement-level player to being a good second liner.

It's called making a long-term investment in young players.

 

[417]

We're both actually right. KK can play 1st line as an opportunity, but will he deserve to stay there? That's up to him. I personally don't see him as a first liner, or a good second line centre. A second line winger, maybe.
Bottom line is, he wouldn't have gotten the same opportunity in Montreal. He's not beating anyone out to play top minutes, nor would he play with an elite guy like Aho.

Which is odd if you ask me.

But that's neither here nor there now.

 

[dcyhabs]

NHL isn't about "deserving"...they have a young player they paid a steep price to acquire, they want to put him in the best situation possible.

That's typically what teams do.

In the same way that MB put him in the NHL at eighteen to justify him as a 3OA. JK would probably have ended up as a more effective player if he had been picked ninth or so and played a couple of more years out of the NHL. He'd be earning way less, though.

 

[Burke the Legend]

NHL isn't about "deserving"...they have a young player they paid a steep price to acquire, they want to put him in the best situation possible.

That's typically what teams do.

Yeah the Canes just invested a lot of money and assets in the expectation that KK the project will fix his many flaws and break out to become an impact player.

The Habs could have matched, but the org obviously didn't feel it was as likely as the Canes did. They took the assets the Canes just gave them (draft pick and cap space) and flipped it into acquiring a more established player instead (Dvorak).

let's see what happens now the risk is all on the Canes for the KK project. They will need KK to improve on playmaking, defence, skating, shot release, balance to get to where they are paying him to be. That's a long list of "needs improvement" to achieve his upside. It will also be a complicated contract situation going forward with the qualifying offer which KK can leverage into either continued 6 million salary or become UFA at 22.

The 3 OA pick we had swaps from KK to become Dvorak which is not great but at least is a legit, cost controlled NHL middle 6 center who still has some upside. Not the best for 2018 3 OA pick (Tkachuk or Hughes) but also not the worst (Barrett Hayton 5OA).

 

[Whitesnake]

Yes, he is. But does that mean KK deserves to be there?

Well, in this league, it's really not a lot about who deserve what. A great player might have a long stretch of bad games...he'll still be on the 1st line. 'Cause it's often about what you can get from them. They paid heavily for JK...there is NO WAY they put themselves in a situation to look bad....just yet. Makes perfect sense they did that. Actually....this is EXACTLY what we should have done with him the day they decided he was ready for the NHL...

 

[Miller Time]

I wonder what the effect will be in the Canes' locker room. These guys know why he was handed a first line spot, not sure they like the reasonning behind it. If he delivers, they'll get over it, if he doesn't and sticks there anyway, I guess some will start to pout...

Probably no different than how our room reacted to Chiarot getting first pairing role...
Or Kulak this year...
Or Drouin since he got here...

And so on and so on

 

[angusyoung]

The Canes did not get a hockey player, they've got a young guy social media type look, he look similar with actor who plays McGiver. Kotkababy will be followed by hords of teenage girls on twitter, tok and facebook, people of all age love those golden boy of the moment succeed or not and trying again and making his laundry. There will be a black market of his underwears, oups, sorry ...

Girls?

 

[417]

In the same way that MB put him in the NHL at eighteen to justify him as a 3OA. JK would probably have ended up as a more effective player if he had been picked ninth or so and played a couple of more years out of the NHL. He'd be earning way less, though.

I think they put him in the NHL at 18 because they basically had nothing down the middle and he came to camp and impressed because, well..again, they had nothing down the middle.

 

[417]

Yeah the Canes just invested a lot of money and assets in the expectation that KK the project will fix his many flaws and break out to become an impact player.

The Habs could have matched, but the org obviously didn't feel it was as likely as the Canes did. They took the assets the Canes just gave them (draft pick and cap space) and flipped it into acquiring a more established player instead (Dvorak).

let's see what happens now the risk is all on the Canes for the KK project. They will need KK to improve on playmaking, defence, skating, shot release, balance to get to where they are paying him to be. That's a long list of "needs improvement" to achieve his upside. It will also be a complicated contract situation going forward with the qualifying offer which KK can leverage into either continued 6 million salary or become UFA at 22.

The 3 OA pick we had swaps from KK to become Dvorak which is not great but at least is a legit, cost controlled NHL middle 6 center who still has some upside. Not the best for 2018 3 OA pick (Tkachuk or Hughes) but also not the worst (Barrett Hayton 5OA).

Not really...pretty standard things to improve on for young players.

It's just typically these things are worked on in leagues outside of the NHL and away from fans/media's eyes.

 

[malcb33]

Yeah the Canes just invested a lot of money and assets in the expectation that KK the project will fix his many flaws and break out to become an impact player.

The Habs could have matched, but the org obviously didn't feel it was as likely as the Canes did. They took the assets the Canes just gave them (draft pick and cap space) and flipped it into acquiring a more established player instead (Dvorak).

This is true, but the Canes are in a much different situation with their roster.

Montreal "was" relying on KK to be a productive 2C this year, which meant he needed to step up now and help fill the hole Danualt left. The Canes already have 3 very capable C's and I believe they see KK as someone who they can likely lock up at a decent rate for the next 3-5 years while he grows into his role. Once Danult left that wasn't really an option for Montreal anymore.

 

[Burke the Legend]

This is true, but the Canes are in a much different situation with their roster.

Montreal "was" relying on KK to be a productive 2C this year, which meant he needed to step up now and help fill the hole Danualt left. The Canes already have 3 very capable C's and I believe they see KK as someone who they can likely lock up at a decent rate for the next 3-5 years while he grows into his role. Once Danult left that wasn't really an option for Montreal anymore.

If the Canes did acquire him as a 3-5 year project it's kind of weird since they are supposedly in "win now" mode. The 6$ million + 1st & 3rd could have been used to bring in an immediate impact proven top 6 winger or D-man. They have to be expecting him to breakout immediately to be paying that much.

 

[CDN24]

Yeah the Canes just invested a lot of money and assets in the expectation that KK the project will fix his many flaws and break out to become an impact player.

The Habs could have matched, but the org obviously didn't feel it was as likely as the Canes did. They took the assets the Canes just gave them (draft pick and cap space) and flipped it into acquiring a more established player instead (Dvorak).

let's see what happens now the risk is all on the Canes for the KK project. They will need KK to improve on playmaking, defence, skating, shot release, balance to get to where they are paying him to be. That's a long list of "needs improvement" to achieve his upside. It will also be a complicated contract situation going forward with the qualifying offer which KK can leverage into either continued 6 million salary or become UFA at 22.

The 3 OA pick we had swaps from KK to become Dvorak which is not great but at least is a legit, cost controlled NHL middle 6 center who still has some upside. Not the best for 2018 3 OA pick (Tkachuk or Hughes) but also not the worst (Barrett Hayton 5OA).

The issue with that pick was our dire need for a centre. Had the Suzuki trade already happened maybe we go with best available. There were no centres that year. KK, Hayton

 

[dcyhabs]

I think they put him in the NHL at 18 because they basically had nothing down the middle and he came to camp and impressed because, well..again, they had nothing down the middle.

Not a good reason, though. Pick up a scrub off wavers and play him in the NHL while your prospect develops. Teams can turn over fast if they get a few good picks and develop them properly. Teams can stay bad forever if they mess up their prospects. Pacciortetty survived mismanagement almost in spite of the organization, JK may or may not, Leblanc and others didn't.

I could understand bringing Kotkaniemi along if he were considered fully developed, or if he were a generational talent who wasn't challenged at other levels, or if they were willing to develop him in the NHL, specialized coaching etc. The organization made it clear that he was a project, that the NHL is not a development league, and that they weren't going to cut him any slack after sheltering him for his first year. They could write a book "how not to develop your prized prospect in several contradictory steps."

 

[dcyhabs]

The issue with that pick was our dire need for a centre. Had the Suzuki trade already happened maybe we go with best available. There were no centres that year. KK, Hayton

Yes, picking for need almost always looks dumb in retrospect because needs change before the players are ready. You don't pick for need with top picks, as there should be obvious choices, and you don't pick for need with late picks because by the time those guys develop your needs will have changed. You may lean toward a guy if your whole organization is short on some positions and you are pretty much flipping a coin on a few guys for a pick, I suppose.

 

[smcgreg]

Well, I'll try to explain it in english but as it's not my first language, it could be harsh a little bit.

If you look closely, you'll remark that he tips the puck with the back of his stick blade to get a better angle to pass the puck to #72. He's even looking at him but he swings « in the butter » (might be a very bad translation of a french expression, but I guess you understand). He's definately not passing it in the slot.

That being said, that's a bad play and you can see he hasn't improve on all his flaws.

Yeah, later in the video he appears to pull the puck back to then push around the forcheck and pass. From the first angle it looked like a clear intended blind backhand. Regardless, a very dangerous play in that spot as the end result demonstrated.

 

[jaffy27]

What's up with the thread title anyways.....should be "Goodbye and f*** Off"

 

[417]

Not a good reason, though. Pick up a scrub off wavers and play him in the NHL while your prospect develops. Teams can turn over fast if they get a few good picks and develop them properly. Teams can stay bad forever if they mess up their prospects. Pacciortetty survived mismanagement almost in spite of the organization, JK may or may not, Leblanc and others didn't

Not disagreeing - just saying they decided to make him graduate at 18.

Typically, when you make that decision, you're deciding to fast track development.

But all they did after making that decision was put the brakes on his development by uber-sheltering him.

It seemed to me like GM and coach(es) were not on same page as far as KK's readiness.

I could understand bringing Kotkaniemi along if he were considered fully developed, or if he were a generational talent who wasn't challenged at other levels, or if they were willing to develop him in the NHL, specialized coaching etc. The organization made it clear that he was a project, that the NHL is not a development league, and that they weren't going to cut him any slack after sheltering him for his first year. They could write a book "how not to develop your prized prospect in several contradictory steps."

Like I said earlier - mixed messaging.