Proposal: James VanRiemsdyk for Mikhail Sergachev

[Habs Halifax]

So in your opinion, we have a short window, but you don't know how long it is...

You don't count on the best goaltender in the world who is in his prime to be able to perform at this level when he's in his mid-30s. Weber will decline in 2 years? He'll go from being an elite #1 dman to what exactly? A no. 4? Worse?

You also don't count on our young core of Patches, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Shaw, etc,.

This is a pretty poor opinion. Our window is open for a good while.

Agreed! The Habs are in win now mode but the future still looks promising. The Habs do a very good job at managing assets like Sergachev. They don't trade them away for guys like Kessel to stay in the middle of the pack and pretend to be a playoff of team.

 

[sheed36]

Fair to say that JVR isn't a likely target for the Habs because he doesn't fill a need, but, in terms of Value:

the Leafs 1st round pick is likely to be in the same range that Sergachev was taken, maybe worse...maybe better. As of today the Leafs are in 21st OA, so right on the 9thOA button odds wise. So essentially, JVR is worth the difference in draft strengths of the same pick?

precedent for guys like JVR is 1st+good prospect as a TDL rental for 1 playoff run (a few months of service), more with a longer contract (which JVR has). You are underrating the market value for JVR, and likely of comparable players who you might want to rent this year

It's difficult to discuss actual value of a player since it would be different for every team. Some teams would value JVR higher and some less depending on specific team needs.

 

[Randy Randerson]

It's difficult to discuss actual value of a player since it would be different for every team. Some teams would value JVR higher and some less depending on specific team needs.

for sure, I don't think he's a fit for the Habs, you guys need a centre and a Dman so I wouldn't expect the best offer to come from you or for you to pull the trigger on a Sergachev trade for him (though I do think Sergachev is in play for the things you need)

Supply and Demand ultimately determine the value, but there's a reason that all these deals look similar too, precedent is considered in trades just like it is in contracts

 

[sheed36]

for sure, I don't think he's a fit for the Habs, you guys need a centre and a Dman so I wouldn't expect the best offer to come from you or for you to pull the trigger on a Sergachev trade for him (though I do think Sergachev is in play for the things you need)

Supply and Demand ultimately determine the value, but there's a reason that all these deals look similar too, precedent is considered in trades just like it is in contracts

As he should be if a deal came along that blew MB's socks off.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So in your opinion, we have a short window, but you don't know how long it is...

You don't count on the best goaltender in the world who is in his prime to be able to perform at this level when he's in his mid-30s. Weber will decline in 2 years? He'll go from being an elite #1 dman to what exactly? A no. 4? Worse?

You also don't count on our young core of Patches, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Shaw, etc,.

This is a pretty poor opinion. Our window is open for a good while.

In your opinion of course. We'll see where you're 2 years from now I guess. I don't really care either way TBH. If you think your window will be open for so long that it's not even a consideration at this time, hey more power to you. Try not to be too surprised when the inevitable happens. And BTW, that "young core" of yours is nothing special, every team has a few good young players, without Price that core of yours is worth ... well, we all saw their worth last year didn't we.

It's also pretty funny how chide me for not giving you a specific answer to "how long" considering my answer was more specific than yours. A good while, yeah OK, whatever that means.

 

[Randy Randerson]

As he should be if a deal came along that blew MB's socks off.

Ya I think Sergachev+ to get a building block piece is more likely than Sergachev straight up for a couple of years for a good player

I am of the opinion that your chances of winning will never be as good as they are with Price in his prime (no player has a bigger impact on his team's success than Price), but that if you added a Duchene type that Galchenyuk/Duchene is a pretty good place to build a franchise too. Price could have 6-7 good years left, but I think banking on it is rolling the dice more than I'd want to if it were my team

 

[sansabri]

In your opinion of course. We'll see where you're 2 years from now I guess. I don't really care either way TBH. If you think your window will be open for so long that it's not even a consideration at this time, hey more power to you. Try not to be too surprised when the inevitable happens. And BTW, that "young core" of yours is nothing special, every team has a few good young players, without Price that core of yours is worth ... well, we all saw their worth last year didn't we.

It's also pretty funny how chide me for not giving you a specific answer to "how long" considering my answer was more specific than yours. A good while, yeah OK, whatever that means.

You're right. As long as Price is healthy, the Habs are a dangerous team. That's why trading Sergachev for a player like JVR would be a massive mistake. We want a deeper team than we have right now.

Our young core is nothing special... OK. Price is part of that core and it's good enough to be sitting at the top of the standings. I guess this is where I could point out all the holes the Leafs will have to patch to actually be contenders, but I won't bother.

Your answer wasn't very clear when I asked you how long we had. Clearly though, you're under the impression that we have a 2 year window. That's obviously wrong as we have a young team. This silly notion that all players regress when they hit 32 (goalies must have very short careers in your mind) is just childish and unrealistic. Every player is different.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

In your opinion of course. We'll see where you're 2 years from now I guess. I don't really care either way TBH. If you think your window will be open for so long that it's not even a consideration at this time, hey more power to you. Try not to be too surprised when the inevitable happens. And BTW, that "young core" of yours is nothing special, every team has a few good young players, without Price that core of yours is worth ... well, we all saw their worth last year didn't we.

It's also pretty funny how chide me for not giving you a specific answer to "how long" considering my answer was more specific than yours. A good while, yeah OK, whatever that means.

Galchenyuk: Number 1C, currently ppg and 7th in the league in scoring
Pacioretty: Proven 35 goalscorer
Radulov: Top 10 talent, most likely to end up among the best scorers at the end of the season
Price: Best goalie and best player in the world
Weber: Top 5 defenseman, this year he's been the best defenseman in the league

How many teams have that?

In comparison, the leafs don't have a single one of them.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You're right. As long as Price is healthy, the Habs are a dangerous team. That's why trading Sergachev for a player like JVR would be a massive mistake. We want a deeper team than we have right now.

Our young core is nothing special... OK. Price is part of that core and it's good enough to be sitting at the top of the standings. I guess this is where I could point out all the holes the Leafs will have to patch to actually be contenders, but I won't bother.

Your answer wasn't very clear when I asked you how long we had. Clearly though, you're under the impression that we have a 2 year window. That's obviously wrong as we have a young team. This silly notion that all players regress when they hit 32 (goalies must have very short careers in your mind) is just childish and unrealistic. Every player is different.

1)
Price being healthy isn't enough, you need Price to be awesome.

2)
I have not once said you should trade Sergachev for JVR, why you keep going about that is a mystery.

3)
We all saw what your core without Price can do. Do you really want to get into that again? You can take shots at the Leafs all you want if it makes you feel better though, go right ahead.

4)
I didn't say you have a 2 year window, I said 2 for sure IMO, after that it gets iffy.

5)
I didn't say all players regress when they hit 32. I hope you realize that all players do regress at some point and by 32 are usually past their prime.

Galchenyuk: Number 1C, currently ppg and 7th in the league in scoring
Pacioretty: Proven 35 goalscorer
Radulov: Top 10 talent, most likely to end up among the best scorers at the end of the season
Price: Best goalie and best player in the world
Weber: Top 5 defenseman, this year he's been the best defenseman in the league

How many teams have that?

In comparison, the leafs don't have a single one of them.

You guys did well with Radulov for sure. Can you clarify what you mean by top 10 talent - top 10 what exactly? And this bit about "most likely" to be among the "best scorers" is interesting, feel free to be a bit more precise with this prediction.

Friendly word - don't count on Galyenchuk maintaining his scoring pace, you don't get awards for where you're at in November. Or didn't last season teach you anything?

I agree Price is the best, Weber though, meh take that to the main boards, see how many agree with you. Hint - he has tons of competition.

Like I said, you have a few good young players but so does almost everyone. TB, Florida, hell even Toronto and that's just for starters.

 

[CHaracter79]

i like how the general opinion is that
weber will be done in 3 4 years.

An Elite top 5 in the league D a phsyical phenom at his size strength and shot, will slow down at 34...

meanwhile players liek Lidstrom, Pronger, Stevens, niedermeyer, Chara, Chelios, MArkovMcninnis all played right up to their forties and most of them had most of their good years after the age of 32.

And its not liek Shea Weber is dependant on his speed etc. HE is a size and strngth ply that relies on his brain more then anythign else.

I dont see him slowing down barring a major injury of course before the age of 37 or 38

Markov is tied for the lead in pts for D men I beleieve and he is 38

 

[sansabri]

1)
Price being healthy isn't enough, you need Price to be awesome.

2)
I have not once said you should trade Sergachev for JVR, why you keep going about that is a mystery.

3)
We all saw what your core without Price can do. Do you really want to get into that again? You can take shots at the Leafs all you want if it makes you feel better though, go right ahead.

4)
I didn't say you have a 2 year window, I said 2 for sure IMO, after that it gets iffy.

5)
I didn't say all players regress when they hit 32. I hope you realize that all players do regress at some point and by 32 are usually past their prime.

1)

2) That's the idea behind the thread.

3) No one argued that the Habs didn't crash and burn last year. However, you seem convinced that we didn't make changes to the team and that we don't have more youth coming up.

4) If it gets iffy after 2, then you are stating that we have a 2 year window. Refer to 1) for clarification.

5) But you did however use that argument on our two best players. Again, weak material.

 

[67Cup]

The question of how long the window to winning a Cup will stay open for the Habs is an interesting one, even to a Leafs fan. My first answer is that the Habs will stay a playoff team and at least have a shot at the Cup as long as Price remains the best goalie in the world. Goalies are inherently unpredictable so who knows how long that will be! It could be a number of years, however. However, even a superstar goalie is not enough to make a team a Cup favourite by himself. Cup winners normally have not only at least a very good goalie, but also a top defenseman, center and winger. I suppose the candidates for those roles would be Price, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty and Weber in the case of the Habs. The one I would be crossing my fingers on, were I a Habs fan, is Galchenyuk. The one whose best by date is approaching the fastest is Weber. I think the answer to the "how long" question is perhaps "as long as Weber remains a star blueliner."

Teams also need depth of good players, however. Acquiring Phil Kessel certainly helped the Pens last season in their Cup run. I think acquiring JVR could have the same effect, though there are obviously no guarantees. It may also be that acquiring a winger is easier than getting a very good DMan or center. But... if, if, the Habs are so eager to make a Cup run this year that they are willing to give up their best prospect by far, would spending the asset on a winger actually be the best move?

Just by way of speculation, what if the Habs had a go at obtaining Tanev? I know there are interminable threads here on the general subject of a Tanev/JVr trade. Maybe there have been threads just as long on Tanev to Montreal. But I am just using the idea as an illustration. It isn't a proposal so if there are Canucks fans lurking here, Peace! I do think that trading Sergachev for a really solid Dman would be a better use for Montreal's top asset than trading him for a winger. If I were the Habs GM, I think that would be the direction I would be exploring first. Get a good enough Dman and maybe the best by date on Weber doesn't matter as much, so it could also be an investment for the future.

But who knows, maybe the Habs will come back to acquiring JVR later, even if he doesn't fill their most pressing need.

 

[CHaracter79]

1)
Price being healthy isn't enough, you need Price to be awesome.

2)
I have not once said you should trade Sergachev for JVR, why you keep going about that is a mystery.

3)
We all saw what your core without Price can do. Do you really want to get into that again? You can take shots at the Leafs all you want if it makes you feel better though, go right ahead.

4)
I didn't say you have a 2 year window, I said 2 for sure IMO, after that it gets iffy.

5)
I didn't say all players regress when they hit 32. I hope you realize that all players do regress at some point and by 32 are usually past their prime.





You guys did well with Radulov for sure. Can you clarify what you mean by top 10 talent - top 10 what exactly? And this bit about "most likely" to be among the "best scorers" is interesting, feel free to be a bit more precise with this prediction.

Friendly word - don't count on Galyenchuk maintaining his scoring pace, you don't get awards for where you're at in November. Or didn't last season teach you anything?

I agree Price is the best, Weber though, meh take that to the main boards, see how many agree with you. Hint - he has tons of competition.

Like I said, you have a few good young players but so does almost everyone. TB, Florida, hell even Toronto and that's just for starters.

only thing is ...
Gallagher our #1 RW missed 30 games

Petry our number 2-3 D man missed 31

Subban our #1 missed 17 and a bunch of depth players all missed games to the point where for about a 15-20 games stretch we had an ahl goalie (backed up by scrivens) two ahl d men and 4 ahl forwards playing at once.

not to mention we traded away two of our top 9 wingers at the deadline on top of all that.

so while i highly agree that Price is a major part of our team.. last year was spent with 5 or 6 key members missing at least 15-20 games

 

[Gary Nylund]

1)

2) That's the idea behind the thread.

3) No one argued that the Habs didn't crash and burn last year. However, you seem convinced that we didn't make changes to the team and that we don't have more youth coming up.

4) If it gets iffy after 2, then you are stating that we have a 2 year window. Refer to 1) for clarification.

5) But you did however use that argument on our two best players. Again, weak material.

1)
Price is awesome now, doesn't mean he will be forever.

2)
That's a reason to keep repeating yourself to someone who agrees with you?

3)
Reading comprehension - what I said was that you're not the only team with some young players. Or do you think you are the only one?

4)
Gets iffy doesn't mean what you think it does. If I thought your window was esactly 2 years I would have said so. It's certainly possible IMO that's where it ends for you but we can't be sure. I notice you still refuse to expand on what you mean by "some time", it sounds like you don't want to even think about it. Nothing wrong with wearing rose-colored glasses I guess.

5)
Once again, reading comprehension is the issue here.

Back to point 2, I think we've spent enough time drifting off topic and on the topic of a JVR for Sergachev trade, I think we all agree that this isn't in MTL's best interest. The things we don't agree on fall outside the scope of that question, we've spent enough time on those issues and don't seem to be making any progress so I think we'll just agree to disagree. I'm done here in any case, have fun.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

1)


You guys did well with Radulov for sure. Can you clarify what you mean by top 10 talent - top 10 what exactly? And this bit about "most likely" to be among the "best scorers" is interesting, feel free to be a bit more precise with this prediction.

Friendly word - don't count on Galyenchuk maintaining his scoring pace, you don't get awards for where you're at in November. Or didn't last season teach you anything?

I agree Price is the best, Weber though, meh take that to the main boards, see how many agree with you. Hint - he has tons of competition.

Like I said, you have a few good young players but so does almost everyone. TB, Florida, hell even Toronto and that's just for starters.

I think Radulov is going to end up with around 75-80 pts. And that's among best scorers kind of production.

Galchenyuk has been ppg for the last 50 games (starting from the end of last season). I don't know if he can maintain his ppg output, but I'm pretty sure he could hit 70 pts, and that's 1C production.
I also don't see what last season has to do with our current team. Our team has changed a lot since then.

Weber is an elite number 1 defenseman, and one of the best in the world. There's no arguing that.

You said earlier that our core is nothing special. I told you some of our core players, and now you tell me that every other team has a similar core because "every team as a few good young players". Other than the fact that you are not even looking at the quality of this core, if the habs has a similar core as any other team, it means our core is as good as Tampa, Chicago, Caps, Pittsburgh, so it means we are stanley cup contenders?

 

[sansabri]

1)
Price is awesome now, doesn't mean he will be forever.

2)
That's a reason to keep repeating yourself to someone who agrees with you?

3)
Reading comprehension - what I said was that you're not the only team with some young players. Or do you think you are the only one?

4)
Gets iffy doesn't mean what you think it does. If I thought your window was esactly 2 years I would have said so. It's certainly possible IMO that's where it ends for you but we can't be sure. I notice you still refuse to expand on what you mean by "some time", it sounds like you don't want to even think about it. Nothing wrong with wearing rose-colored glasses I guess.

5)
Once again, reading comprehension is the issue here.

Back to point 2, I think we've spent enough time drifting off topic and on the topic of a JVR for Sergachev trade, I think we all agree that this isn't in MTL's best interest. The things we don't agree on fall outside the scope of that question, we've spent enough time on those issues and don't seem to be making any progress so I think we'll just agree to disagree. I'm done here in any case, have fun.

1) No one said Price will be awesome forever. But according to you, after 2 years, it gets 'iffy'. You still haven't provided any convincing argument as to why that is. Just your gut feeling I guess.

2) You're right. I'll drop it.

3) Plenty of other teams having a young core has no effect on ours. Dunno why you think this is an argument. Our core is backed by the best goalie in the world. We have a good mixture of young and older talent.

4) Refer to 1). I see our window open as long as Price is on top - which looks like a good 5 years, maybe more. Plenty of great goalies in their mid to late 30s are still in the NHL (Lundqvist, Luongo).

5) Later.

 

[CHaracter79]

1)
Price is awesome now, doesn't mean he will be forever.

2)
That's a reason to keep repeating yourself to someone who agrees with you?

3)
Reading comprehension - what I said was that you're not the only team with some young players. Or do you think you are the only one?

4)
Gets iffy doesn't mean what you think it does. If I thought your window was esactly 2 years I would have said so. It's certainly possible IMO that's where it ends for you but we can't be sure. I notice you still refuse to expand on what you mean by "some time", it sounds like you don't want to even think about it. Nothing wrong with wearing rose-colored glasses I guess.

5)
Once again, reading comprehension is the issue here.

Back to point 2, I think we've spent enough time drifting off topic and on the topic of a JVR for Sergachev trade, I think we all agree that this isn't in MTL's best interest. The things we don't agree on fall outside the scope of that question, we've spent enough time on that question and don't seem to be making any progress so I think we'll just agree to disagree. I'm done here in any case, have fun.

ITs funny but all this is relative..

Price probably has 8 years left of a career.. maybe 9 of which 5 of those will probably be elite. maybe by 33 or 34 he slows down a bit.


Petry will be 32

Radulov 34

weber 35

Pacioretty 32,

Chucky 26

Gally 28

BEaulieu 28


All of the above player will still be in their elite years.. except maybe .. MAYBE Weber.. but will be hard to tell with these types of Elite dmen

Our back end looks deep prospect wise with Juulsen and Sergachev hopefully taking on roles in the next year or two tops.

its hard to tell what kind of players will be up front what kind of impact they will have from now.. but if the right moves are made.. there can def be competitveness for at least 5 years.

Chucky Gally PAtches radulov will still be in their prime

Need one more top end player up front IMO and one more top 4 D right now...

 

[BayStreetBully]

I think Radulov is going to end up with around 75-80 pts. And that's among best scorers kind of production.

Galchenyuk has been ppg for the last 50 games (starting from the end of last season). I don't know if he can maintain his ppg output, but I'm pretty sure he could hit 70 pts, and that's 1C production.
I also don't see what last season has to do with our current team. Our team has changed a lot since then.

Weber is an elite number 1 defenseman, and one of the best in the world. There's no arguing that.

You said earlier that our core is nothing special. I told you some of our core players, and now you tell me that every other team has a similar core because "every team as a few good young players". Other than the fact that you are not even looking at the quality of this core, if the habs has a similar core as any other team, it means our core is as good as Tampa, Chicago, Caps, Pittsburgh, so it means we are stanley cup contenders?

IF Galchenyuk proves himself to be a 70 point center, and IF Radulov can show he is capable of 75 points, then I'd agree that is a great core. Right now, I wouldn't assume either will happen. Those are lofty standards. It's been 20 games.

 

[Vern]

lets all stop talking about sergachev because that would be ridiculous and even if it wasnt gomez/mcdonagh experience means this could not happen.

that being said the more i think about it the more attractive jvr becomes because of his low cap hit. i still wouldnt move any of our top prospects because were counting on them joining the team on elc's over the next few years, but maybe something like 2017 and 2018 1sts dd and a b prospect if the deal gets done immediately. He'd be worth protecting over someone like danault even if it was for only one year of service. so its like a rental fee for both years.

 

[Vern]

IF Galchenyuk proves himself to be a 70 point center, and IF Radulov can show he is capable of 75 points, then I'd agree that is a great core. Right now, I wouldn't assume either will happen. Those are lofty standards. It's been 20 games.

right, so if they hit say 63 and 65 points the core of our team isin't great. stats dont win cups bro

 

[Brock Radunske]

I think Radulov is going to end up with around 75-80 pts. And that's among best scorers kind of production.

Galchenyuk has been ppg for the last 50 games (starting from the end of last season). I don't know if he can maintain his ppg output, but I'm pretty sure he could hit 70 pts, and that's 1C production.
I also don't see what last season has to do with our current team. Our team has changed a lot since then.

Weber is an elite number 1 defenseman, and one of the best in the world. There's no arguing that.

You said earlier that our core is nothing special. I told you some of our core players, and now you tell me that every other team has a similar core because "every team as a few good young players". Other than the fact that you are not even looking at the quality of this core, if the habs has a similar core as any other team, it means our core is as good as Tampa, Chicago, Caps, Pittsburgh, so it means we are stanley cup contenders?

If no one else is allowed to use pace to project season totals without getting mocked, what makes you and Radulov any different?

 

[jacks*]

IF Galchenyuk proves himself to be a 70 point center, and IF Radulov can show he is capable of 75 points, then I'd agree that is a great core. Right now, I wouldn't assume either will happen. Those are lofty standards. It's been 20 games.

Well it's been 22 games and Chucky is a PPG .
He needs 48 pts in his last 60 games which is a .8 ppg for the rest of the season.Going on what he's been doing this season so far i would assume that he does hit 70 pts and 30 goals.

 

[BayStreetBully]

right, so if they hit say 63 and 65 points the core of our team isin't great. stats dont win cups bro

Then they aren't the players you are hyping them up to be.

 

[jacks*]

1)
Price being healthy isn't enough, you need Price to be awesome.

2)
I have not once said you should trade Sergachev for JVR, why you keep going about that is a mystery.

3)
We all saw what your core without Price can do. Do you really want to get into that again? You can take shots at the Leafs all you want if it makes you feel better though, go right ahead.

4)
I didn't say you have a 2 year window, I said 2 for sure IMO, after that it gets iffy.

5)
I didn't say all players regress when they hit 32. I hope you realize that all players do regress at some point and by 32 are usually past their prime.





You guys did well with Radulov for sure. Can you clarify what you mean by top 10 talent - top 10 what exactly? And this bit about "most likely" to be among the "best scorers" is interesting, feel free to be a bit more precise with this prediction.

Friendly word - don't count on Galyenchuk maintaining his scoring pace, you don't get awards for where you're at in November. Or didn't last season teach you anything?

I agree Price is the best, Weber though, meh take that to the main boards, see how many agree with you. Hint - he has tons of competition.

Like I said, you have a few good young players but so does almost everyone. TB, Florida, hell even Toronto and that's just for starters.

On # 1 Price just has to be Price.

On #3 you forgot to add Gallagher ,Subban with Price missing all while having a tender who should have been playing in the minors.

On #4 .It doesn't come close to getting iffy after 2 yrs.

On Chucky maintaining his pace .Time will tell.While awards are not given out in November last yr was because of injuries .Didn't other seasons teach you anything.

Yes Price is the best and Weber has been among if not the best so far this season.
Who cares what the main board thinks. Weber has the stats to prove it.

 

[HuGo Sham]

In your opinion of course. We'll see where you're 2 years from now I guess. I don't really care either way TBH. If you think your window will be open for so long that it's not even a consideration at this time, hey more power to you. Try not to be too surprised when the inevitable happens. And BTW, that "young core" of yours is nothing special, every team has a few good young players, without Price that core of yours is worth ... well, we all saw their worth last year didn't we.

It's also pretty funny how chide me for not giving you a specific answer to "how long" considering my answer was more specific than yours. A good while, yeah OK, whatever that means.

and what about Toronto's window? are they guranteed contenders because they have 3 very good forwards and Reilly? What about your D prospects? do you have a sergachev or Juulsen? What guarantees are there that andersen ever becomes elite?

see what i'm doing?