Jake Gardiner 2.0 - More beast than man now, I am afraid...

[Nithoniniel]

The reason is because people are not seeing an improvement from Gardiner...he has flashes of brilliance and then within a span of a game has a brain aneurysm and forgets how to play hockey...sometimes I just sit and wonder what is this guy doing. His inconsistency is frustrating to watch...on the other hand, Rielly (who came much later than Gardiner) has improved and is clearly showing signs of becoming better.

Leafs fans are not as dumb as you think...some of the calls for the players heads are justified.

Go back two weeks, and the overwhelming opinion on these boards were the absolute opposite of what you just wrote.

People are fickle.

 

[LeafFever]

Go back two weeks, and the overwhelming opinion on these boards were the absolute opposite of what you just wrote.

People are fickle.

1 game and people freak out and change their minds. These games happen everywhere. They can't in Toronto.

 

[LeafFever]

McCabe was no longer effective when they started calling interference. Casual fans might have turned on him because of a couple bad games, but more knowledgeable hockey fans knew he was finished.

Complete myth. He had his best year after the lockout. He actually missed 8 games due to injury that year and the Leafs lost every game and as a result, missed the playoffs.
McCabe got WAY too much crap because of where he played. At some point that 'Can Opener" thing was mentioned and everyone ran with it.

 

[bunjay]

Complete myth. He had his best year after the lockout. He actually missed 8 games due to injury that year and the Leafs lost every game and as a result, missed the playoffs.
McCabe got WAY too much crap because of where he played. At some point that 'Can Opener" thing was mentioned and everyone ran with it.

You're calling something that's true a myth with a myth of your own, because you don't remember what actually happened. McCabes defensive effectiveness took a nosedive when they started calling interference, and it wasn't just about his "can opener" (which was often a penalty even before they started called obstruction, it was tripping). It was about his slow pivot and inability to transition from backward to forward skating to beat a forward to a dump-in, and his tendency to keep a tight gap in the neutral zone because he was used to making up for his slowness with interference.

In the post-lockout season McCabe scored 19 goals and 49 assists, which is almost certanly what you're looking at when you say it was his "best year." What actually happened is that, league-wide, penalties went up enormously that year as all the rule changes came into effect. Remember it wasn't just interference/obstruction, it was the 2-line pass. Of those 19 goals and 49 assists, 13 and 32 respectively were scored on the PP. At even strength he was awful. Don't forget he was the trigger-man on a PP unit with Kaberle and Sundin.

That was also the year that Tucker TRIPLED his previous career high in PP production. Lots of cross-crease tap-ins from Sundin, if I recall.

 

[MapleLeafistan]

Go back two weeks, and the overwhelming opinion on these boards were the absolute opposite of what you just wrote.

People are fickle.

That's because most Leafs fans on HF are over-emotional...I'm rational and don't get caught up in the emotions. One good or bad game doesn't cut it with my opinion of Gardiner...been watching him since I think 2012 and haven't seen an improvement. Same silly mistakes, same brain farts, same moments of brilliance. Not worth it for the Leafs... if Babcock could turn around Kadri's offensive game, surely we would have seen something similar with that of Gardiner defensive game.

 

[MapleLeafistan]

McCabe was great...him and Kaberle actually were great for the Leafs in the early 2000s, especially those playoff runs.

I don't remember the "fans turning on him"...he just simply wore himself out.

 

[thewave]

That's because most Leafs fans on HF are over-emotional...I'm rational and don't get caught up in the emotions. One good or bad game doesn't cut it with my opinion of Gardiner...been watching him since I think 2012 and haven't seen an improvement. Same silly mistakes, same brain farts, same moments of brilliance. Not worth it for the Leafs... if Babcock could turn around Kadri's offensive game, surely we would have seen something similar with that of Gardiner defensive game.

If you think you are the rational one while saying he is the same player from 2012. Well, I don't know but your claim certainly is wrong. He has changed very much as a player.

Strange

 

[Duke Silver]

McCabe was great...him and Kaberle actually were great for the Leafs in the early 2000s, especially those playoff runs.

I don't remember the "fans turning on him"...he just simply wore himself out.

The fans absolutely turned on McCabe.

 

[ToneDog]

Jake had a bad game for sure but still has been steady this season. Also, why is no one blaming Anderson on the 5 on 3. He kicked out the puck instead of holding it. Even the commentators said he was trying to kick it to pass to his teammate. If he held the puck we wouldn't be ****ting on Gardiner.

Yeah but it was Jake's job to take the trailer not to stand and watch the play.

That's because most Leafs fans on HF are over-emotional...I'm rational and don't get caught up in the emotions. One good or bad game doesn't cut it with my opinion of Gardiner...been watching him since I think 2012 and haven't seen an improvement. Same silly mistakes, same brain farts, same moments of brilliance. Not worth it for the Leafs... if Babcock could turn around Kadri's offensive game, surely we would have seen something similar with that of Gardiner defensive game.

I agree with this. If it was one game, OK, but it is not and his brain cramps are happening multiple times in multiple games ... again.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

McCabe was great...him and Kaberle actually were great for the Leafs in the early 2000s, especially those playoff runs.

I don't remember the "fans turning on him"...he just simply wore himself out.

You basically lost all credibility right here. The fans didn’t turn on him? Not even close to an accurate statement whatsoever.

 

[moon111]

A problem with Gardiner is he's not alone. The Leafs are incredibly frustrating with their defense. Gardiner, Reilly, Carrick, Zaitsev, and yes, even Marincin... they're all offensive defensemen that are prone to making the mistakes that offensive D-men tend to make or have been forced to play a role they're not comfortable with. And many times, they're not saddled with someone like Hainsey who excels in his own end. The Leafs don't have enough defensive forwards to balance things either. A lot of the heat Gardiner gets comes from overall fan frustration with the team as a whole, with any blunder just amplifying that sentiment. If the Leafs could afford two more Hainey's instead of two <$1 million rookies from Sweden, Gardiner's mistakes don't get magnified.

 

[thewave]

You basically lost all credibility right here. The fans didn’t turn on him? Not even close to an accurate statement whatsoever.

I remember him being the joke. We couldn't get rid of that contract fast enough.

 

[Nithoniniel]

That's because most Leafs fans on HF are over-emotional...I'm rational and don't get caught up in the emotions.

That's how everybody views themselves. It's called bias blind spot, the belief that we are more rational and don't suffer from the same kind of biases and such that color others opinions.

One good or bad game doesn't cut it with my opinion of Gardiner...been watching him since I think 2012 and haven't seen an improvement. Same silly mistakes, same brain farts, same moments of brilliance.

Meanwhile, the coach sees an improvement, media sees an improvement, fans in general see an improvement. His stats show that he's gone from being an error prone player to one of our safest players in the defensive zone over these years in terms of how large percentage of his plays end up in an error. He wins more pucks and breaks up more plays than before. And that's on top of absolutely stellar defensive shot metrics and chance prevention.

 

[Legion34]

The fans absolutely turned on McCabe.

Yep. They did. Fans and media. We really have the worst fans in the league.

 

[DopeyFish]

Yep. They did. Fans and media. We really have the worst fans in the league.

it wasn't just mccabe, either. it was kaberle, tucker, sundin and kubina. the muskoka 5.

kaberle, mccabe, sundin are basically some of the best players we ever had at their respective positions.

i get wanting to win and wanting to fix all your mistakes. but we basically self-immolate the team. it's so dumb that there always has to be someone to blame.

 

[bunjay]

McCabe was great...him and Kaberle actually were great for the Leafs in the early 2000s, especially those playoff runs.

I don't remember the "fans turning on him"...he just simply wore himself out.

Emphasis on early 2000s. Leafs fans absolutely turned on him, he got consistently boo'ed at home after he put that puck into his own net, which unless I'm mistaken was the second time he did that.

But he was legitimately bad at everything but the PP 1-timer after the rule changes, and a couple years later even that no longer worked for him. And his contract was huge. Giving him too much credit is giving Kaberle too little credit.

 

[ULF_55]

I remember him being the joke. We couldn't get rid of that contract fast enough.

But he wasn't alone in being a "joke" remember who took over for JFj.

The management group that brought you Jeff Finger, traded Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak, and then the new and improvement management brought in Kessel for multiple 1st. round picks with no goaltender on the team.

 

[Legion34]

it wasn't just mccabe, either. it was kaberle, tucker, sundin and kubina. the muskoka 5.

kaberle, mccabe, sundin are basically some of the best players we ever had at their respective positions.

i get wanting to win and wanting to fix all your mistakes. but we basically self-immolate the team. it's so dumb that there always has to be someone to blame.

We destroy every good team we have. Even sundin was treated like garbage. Prior to the vancouver thing. I still am angry about that

I am sure the exact same thing happens to 1 of the big 3. Just not sure which

 

[DopeyFish]

We destroy every good team we have. Even sundin was treated like garbage. Prior to the vancouver thing. I still am angry about that

I am sure the exact same thing happens to 1 of the big 3. Just not sure which

putting my money on marner because nylander dazzles every game. Marner plays a high-risk high-reward game. You already see it in the threads.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

putting my money on marner because nylander dazzles every game. Marner plays a high-risk high-reward game. You already see it in the threads.

I hope not. if our fans are dumb enough to turn on Marner I'll be pretty disappointed

 

[Legion34]

putting my money on marner because nylander dazzles every game. Marner plays a high-risk high-reward game. You already see it in the threads.

And the best part is. IT has been happening for 20 years that I have been a fan. And fans still won’t admit that we play a role in the teams failures. People are human. We treat them like garbage and expect the best.

It’s no surprise that tons of players rebound after we trade them

 

[DopeyFish]

A big reason for all of this is the huge injection of politics into the sport. This gave rise to Don Cherry and his stupidity. When the NHL basically started attracting huge amounts of talent from Europe, the old school hockey minds lost it and started making it look like we won on toughness. Get a good Canadian, eh. He's tough! But the problem is they raised the bar... so somehow the debate turned into talent vs toughness. You need talent to win. You don't necessarily need toughness to win, but it can help. The problem then circles back on itself... then people like Cherry double down on their initial mistake. So the blue collars look for a white collar to make a mistake, then hound all over them because they are weak/not tough/whatever.

It hurts the sport. It's how we get guys like Brian "I drafted him because he's from a good blood line" Burke. We're still feeling the bad effects from Summit Series and Punch Up in Piestany.

I should note it has become a LOT better, but it's still there... especially in Toronto.

 

[MJ65]

But he wasn't alone in being a "joke" remember who took over for JFj.

The management group that brought you Jeff Finger, traded Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak, and then the new and improvement management brought in Kessel for multiple 1st. round picks with no goaltender on the team.

100% - the previous regimes made some bonehead decisions in the past, the hiring of Shanahan was a blessing for this team and the current management have turn around the fortune of this club within no time

 

[Gallagbi]

You're calling something that's true a myth with a myth of your own, because you don't remember what actually happened. McCabes defensive effectiveness took a nosedive when they started calling interference, and it wasn't just about his "can opener" (which was often a penalty even before they started called obstruction, it was tripping). It was about his slow pivot and inability to transition from backward to forward skating to beat a forward to a dump-in, and his tendency to keep a tight gap in the neutral zone because he was used to making up for his slowness with interference.

In the post-lockout season McCabe scored 19 goals and 49 assists, which is almost certanly what you're looking at when you say it was his "best year." What actually happened is that, league-wide, penalties went up enormously that year as all the rule changes came into effect. Remember it wasn't just interference/obstruction, it was the 2-line pass. Of those 19 goals and 49 assists, 13 and 32 respectively were scored on the PP. At even strength he was awful. Don't forget he was the trigger-man on a PP unit with Kaberle and Sundin.

That was also the year that Tucker TRIPLED his previous career high in PP production. Lots of cross-crease tap-ins from Sundin, if I recall.

I think you're right on a lot of this, but I'd argue that made him more effective when obstruction was being called regularly out of the "great lockout". He wasn't as strong 5on5, but it became a special teams game and he was incredible on the PP. Add in the fact he was a good PKer as well and you had a very effective player, even with the mental lapses he was known for.

As obstruction started being called less, and he aged, he spent more time in areas he was less effective.

From what I remember Sundin was at the top of the circles. Allison then Wellwood after were usually the guys feeding Tucker.

 

[thewave]

Jake having a better game