Jake Gardiner 2.0 - More beast than man now, I am afraid...

[diceman934]

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected. There's no rational discussion possible with you on this subject in which you're obviously emotionally invested, so best to move. Can't even cite one example. That says it all.

I have posted more then a few time when I feel he screwed up.....I do not have to post examples as I am posting on here for my pleasure and not to prove a point with you....

Please move on as I have no interest on proving a point to a person who personally attacked me!

 

[thewave]

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected. There's no rational discussion possible with you on this subject in which you're obviously emotionally invested, so best to move. Can't even cite one example. That says it all.

Why are you arguing? Players are supposed to keep an eye on the play not the puck. Marner got caught puck watching so I don't understand the fuss. Its sewn up, it happens. Jake does it Rielly does it, everyone does it. Mitch didn't know what Rielly was doing because he wasn't paying attention, its in the video, puck watching. Oh well, big whoop it was a bad game. Rielly had a good game, Jake didn't.

If they had voice in the helms Rielly would have said... Cover me I am going in, maybe he called it and that's why Mitch changed course. Who knows couldn't hear it on TV.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why are you arguing? Players are supposed to keep an eye on the play not the puck. Marner got caught puck watching so I don't understand the fuss. Its sewn up, it happens. Jake does it Rielly does it, everyone does it. Mitch didn't know what Rielly was doing because he wasn't paying attention, its in the video, puck watching. Oh well, big whoop it was a bad game. Rielly had a good game, Jake didn't.

If they had voice in the helms Rielly would have said... Cover me I am going in, maybe he called it and that's why Mitch changed course. Who knows couldn't hear it on TV.

He actually does the exact opposite of puck watching and cheats to where he thinks it is going. He glides through his area rather than stopping, which pulls him too far from the front of the net so he can't make it back in time to support the D.

 

[Morbo]

Wow I actually agreed with Freebird.
Good thing is though Rielly is our best d man.

meh. they're not that far apart if at all.

they're both decent top 4 offensive dmen who skate well.

 

[RLF]

Why are you arguing? Players are supposed to keep an eye on the play not the puck. Marner got caught puck watching so I don't understand the fuss. Its sewn up, it happens. Jake does it Rielly does it, everyone does it. Mitch didn't know what Rielly was doing because he wasn't paying attention, its in the video, puck watching. Oh well, big whoop it was a bad game. Rielly had a good game, Jake didn't.

If they had voice in the helms Rielly would have said... Cover me I am going in, maybe he called it and that's why Mitch changed course. Who knows couldn't hear it on TV.

That goal is on Borgman, Rielly pressured and no need for Borgman to pressure when you know your partner is behind the goal line and the man with the puck is not in a danger area. He should have stayed put and covered the passing lane to the front. In Marner's defence, he rotated higher as he should when the puck went to Rielly's side and as soon as Borgman went at him when the puck moved to his side, the NJ player on his side moved it to the now open man infront. It was a bang/bang play and I don't think Marner had enough time to rotate down. I don't see any fault to Rielly or Marner really, Borgman pressured too quickly not giving time for guys to rotate into position.imo

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

That goal is on Borgman, Rielly pressured and no need for Borgman to pressure when you know your partner is behind the goal line and the man with the puck is not in a danger area. He should have stayed put and covered the passing lane to the front. In Marner's defence, he rotated higher as he should when the puck went to Rielly's side and as soon as Borgman went at him when the puck moved to his side, the NJ player on his side moved it to the now open man infront. It was a bang/bang play and I don't think Marner had enough time to rotate down. I don't see any fault to Rielly or Marner really, Borgman pressured too quickly not giving time for guys to rotate into position.imo

Just to clarify it was actually the other way around. Borgman pressured his man (Bratt) first, then Rielly pursued Johansen behind the net when he already knew Borgman was behind the goal line, when he should have instead been guarding the pass as you are supposed to do when the puck is behind the net (especially on the PK) in a no danger position.

Based on your own analysis of the situation (given that Rielly actually did what you perhaps accidentally attributed to Borgman) it should follow that the criticism does not belong to Borgman but Rielly.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Why are you arguing? Players are supposed to keep an eye on the play not the puck. Marner got caught puck watching so I don't understand the fuss. Its sewn up, it happens. Jake does it Rielly does it, everyone does it. Mitch didn't know what Rielly was doing because he wasn't paying attention, its in the video, puck watching. Oh well, big whoop it was a bad game. Rielly had a good game, Jake didn't.

If they had voice in the helms Rielly would have said... Cover me I am going in, maybe he called it and that's why Mitch changed course. Who knows couldn't hear it on TV.

Ok I'll discuss with you as you're pretty unbiased (at least where Rielly's concerned.)

We're arguing because the matter isn't sewn up, it's debatable (hence the wide variance of opinions). It's my belief that you don't chase the puck behind the net on the PK down a man or two, you defend the pass and collapse the box setup if anything. The goalie ' s job is to protect the potential bad angle shot, but otherwise Johansen wasn't a threat that had to be pressured. In that situation you force him to make the first move which Rielly didn't, instead choosing to vacate the front of the net and breaking the box formation.

At that point yes, it becomes Marner's responsibility to "cover" for him, but you only usually have to cover if the person's not where they're supposed to be. If Rielly reads the play correctly there is no need for Marner to drop down low to cover, which would have left the point man right in a perfect shooting position in the slot if Johansson passed it there instead of to Zacha.

The question is what's the more logical threat, the guy behind the net with nowhere to shoot or the guys at the point or the front of the net. It seems like common sense to me.

 

[RLF]

Just to clarify it was actually the other way around. Borgman pressured his man (Bratt) first, then Rielly pursued Johansen behind the net when he already knew Borgman was behind the goal line, when he should have instead been guarding the pass as you are supposed to do when the puck is behind the net (especially on the PK) in a no danger position.

Based on your own analysis of the situation (given that Rielly actually did what you perhaps accidentally attributed to Borgman) it should follow that the criticism does not belong to Borgman but Rielly.

We are referring to the PP goal that made it 3-2 no? Puck to Andersen's left (Borgman's side), everyone in good position, it gets moved behind the net to Andersen's right(Rielly's side), he pressures, Borgman also then moves behind the goal line, quick pass to wide open Zacha in front. I don't see where you are seeing Borgman pressure first. Are we talking about a different goal?

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

We are referring to the PP goal that made it 3-2 no? Puck to Andersen's left (Borgman's side), everyone in good position, it gets moved behind the net to Andersen's right(Rielly's side), he pressures, Borgman also then moves behind the goal line, quick pass to wide open Zacha in front. I don't see where you are seeing Borgman pressure first. Are we talking about a different goal?

Yeah we're talking about the same goal. Just check out the video again, you'll see Borgman goes to Andersson ' s left first to pressure Bratt, then Bratt passes to Johansson who Rielly pursues, then Johansson passes it back to Bratt who passes it to Zacha out front.

Both players were in no man's land, but Borgman was there first which Rielly should have seen.

One could argue though that if Borgman was already chasing Bratt how did Bratt get the pass back unharrassed. I think he was caught in between at that point cause he was trying to get back to the net where Rielly and Marner weren't. Just a big break down all around, but as a rookie I'm more inclined to give Borgs a break in this situation. It was a bang bang plays as DK said.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yeah we're talking about the same goal. Just check out the video again, you'll see Borgman goes to Andersson ' s left first to pressure Bratt, then Bratt passes to Johansson who Rielly pursues, then Johansson passes it back to Bratt who passes it to Zacha out front.

Both players were in no man's land, but Borgman was there first which Rielly should have seen.

One could argue though that if Borgman was already chasing Bratt how did Bratt get the pass back unharrassed. I think he was caught in between at that point cause he was trying to get back to the net where Rielly and Marner weren't. Just a big break down all around, but as a rookie I'm more inclined to give Borgs a break in this situation. It was a bang bang plays as DK said.

Borgman makes a hit on Johansen in the corner as Marner falls and the pass comes up top to Bratt (RD). Bratt comes down to the goal line and Borgman takes up his usual position. He isnt pressuring Bratt first.

I think you're confusing Bratt with the initial hit on Johansen.

 

[RLF]

Yeah we're talking about the same goal. Just check out the video again, you'll see Borgman goes to Andersson ' s left first to pressure Bratt, then Bratt passes to Johansson who Rielly pursues, then Johansson passes it back to Bratt who passes it to Zacha out front.

Both players were in no man's land, but Borgman was there first which Rielly should have seen.

One could argue though that if Borgman was already chasing Bratt how did Bratt get the pass back unharrassed. I think he was caught in between at that point cause he was trying to get back to the net where Rielly and Marner weren't. Just a big break down all around, but as a rookie I'm more inclined to give Borgs a break in this situation. It was a bang bang plays as DK said.

I looked at the video again after your comment because I thought I am looking at the wrong goal. Borgman is not pressuring anyone. He is above the goal line and in position until the puck goes to Johansson, Rielly pressures Johansson on a good angle to also block a pass to the front, Johansson moves it back to Bratt then Borgman moves down behind the goal line and pressures Bratt, while his partner is still trying to get back to the net. Rookie play maybe, but there was no need to pressure Bratt as he was not in a scoring position, his responsibility is the front of the net and passing lane to it at that time. Sorry, I completely disagree with your analysis...as I am sure you do mine.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I looked at the video again after your comment because I thought I am looking at the wrong goal. Borgman is not pressuring anyone. He is above the goal line and in position until the puck goes to Johansson, Rielly pressures Johansson on a good angle to also block a pass to the front, Johansson moves it back to Bratt then Borgman moves down behind the goal line and pressures Bratt, while his partner is still trying to get back to the net. Rookie play maybe, but there was no need to pressure Bratt as he was not in a scoring position, his responsibility is the front of the net and passing lane to it at that time. Sorry, I completely disagree with your analysis...as I am sure you do mine.

You're both right. I just watched it again on the highlights there was another play just before that bled into my memory. It was Rielly who pressured first (which I don't think he should have done as I said) but at that point it was Borgman’s job to cover for the pass. Overall a lack of structure and poor reads all around.

 

[RLF]

You're both right. I just watched it again on the highlights there was another play just before that bled into my memory. It was Rielly who pressured first (which I don't think he should have done as I said) but at that point it was Borgman’s job to cover for the pass. Overall a lack of structure and poor reads all around.

No worries. Although I have no problem with how and when Rielly pressured. He gave Johansson no time to think and forced him to move the puck to a non-danger area. If Borgman had of waited enough to let Rielly get to his position in front, Bratt would have had no play either. BTW, I like Borgman, but a bad play is a bad play. I'm sure he knows it.

 

[Apotheosis]

I'm going to state the obvious instead of senselessly attacking all of our D. Our D talent wise is fine. Rielly, Gardiner, Hainsey and Zaitsev have all been good to great so far from a personal perspective. Outside of last game, Gardiner was rarely getting beat wide. Rielly improved his gap control greatly. Both players are insanely good at zone entries and their breakouts are the best on this team from the back end. Hainsey has been solid as hell and I've liked Zaitsev's play as well. The problem at large is and will be the biggest; TEAM DEFENCE. I love Marner and defend him to a fault sometimes, but it's hilarious how much better Matthews and Kadri's line are at better supporting the D from a rotational perspective. A lot of it is playing with a centre who doesn't understand basic defence most of the time and a coasting winger but he can't get those bad habits. Matthews and Nylander are great in transition and cycling and they cover players well going back. Same with Kadri's line. Brown has improved the 4th line as well in that regard. As I have said, remove Bozak, move Nylander to there as a centre, move JVR and replace him with Kapanen and move Marner to Matthews line (not all at once but at some point) and this team is twice as good by default. Nylander-Kapanen burns weaker pairings with insane speed while being good defensively, Matthews-Marner is better defensively than Bozak-JVR-Marner by levels. And so on.

 

[Barilko14]

I'm going to state the obvious instead of senselessly attacking all of our D. Our D talent wise is fine. Rielly, Gardiner, Hainsey and Zaitsev have all been good to great so far from a personal perspective. Outside of last game, Gardiner was rarely getting beat wide. Rielly improved his gap control greatly. Both players are insanely good at zone entries and their breakouts are the best on this team from the back end. Hainsey has been solid as hell and I've liked Zaitsev's play as well. The problem at large is and will be the biggest; TEAM DEFENCE. I love Marner and defend him to a fault sometimes, but it's hilarious how much better Matthews and Kadri's line are at better supporting the D from a rotational perspective. A lot of it is playing with a centre who doesn't understand basic defence most of the time and a coasting winger but he can't get those bad habits. Matthews and Nylander are great in transition and cycling and they cover players well going back. Same with Kadri's line. Brown has improved the 4th line as well in that regard. As I have said, remove Bozak, move Nylander to there as a centre, move JVR and replace him with Kapanen and move Marner to Matthews line (not all at once but at some point) and this team is twice as good by default. Nylander-Kapanen burns weaker pairings with insane speed while being good defensively, Matthews-Marner is better defensively than Bozak-JVR-Marner by levels. And so on.

Agreed all around. JVR has even talked about their breakout needing to be better. When those 3 are on the ice in their own end I usually cringe when they are trying to move the puck out of the zone, they just can not find the right structure to work together to move the puck out consistently.

The Matthews or Kadri lines just seems to happen naturally, and they rarely get hemmed in.

Strangest part about this is Bozak and JVR have been together way longer then any other pairing, the fact that they still can't find each other to move the puck out is pretty mind-boggling and shows they will never be strong in this area.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Gardiner had a terrible game against NJ but other than that him and Zaitsev have been near neck and neck as our best D.

Rielly on the other hand....I can't think of a single thing he does well. Often mishandles the puck, mediocre to awful defensive awareness, not physical, little offensive creativity. I guess he can skate good but that's about it.

That Zacha goal on the PP where he chased the guy behind the net instead of covering his man in front was amateur level stuff. And then there is his shot; A lot of times he fails to get it through but when he does I honestly cannot count the number of times it's gone square into the goalie's crest. Just shoot the puck low for a tip or aim somewhere else if you're going to shoot high. He seems to have a case of Jason Blake syndrome.

His play is beyond frustrating and it seems like he's getting worse not better with experience. Gardiner proved my opinion of him wrong so I hope that Rielly does the same in the long run.

 

[ToneDog]

Jake has way too many brain cramps for my liking. I would package him up with a pick or prospect for a steadier dman.

 

[Bluelines]

I think every player is flawed save McDavid, Matthews and Crosby.

Harping on the obvious does nothing to resolve the flaw. It simply allows "insert name here" to think they are smart.

With that said its probably Naz's fault.

 

[Duke Silver]

I looked at the video again after your comment because I thought I am looking at the wrong goal. Borgman is not pressuring anyone. He is above the goal line and in position until the puck goes to Johansson, Rielly pressures Johansson on a good angle to also block a pass to the front, Johansson moves it back to Bratt then Borgman moves down behind the goal line and pressures Bratt, while his partner is still trying to get back to the net. Rookie play maybe, but there was no need to pressure Bratt as he was not in a scoring position, his responsibility is the front of the net and passing lane to it at that time. Sorry, I completely disagree with your analysis...as I am sure you do mine.

Johansson is also much closer to the net/Rielly (and thus requires smaller distance travelled to pressure him) than Bratt was to the net/Borgman. Borgman would have had to travel a longer distance to get to Bratt.

All this talk of Marner needing to recognize what's happening and cover the front is ignoring that literally all of this happened within 1 second. Unless he has superhuman reflexes that was never going to happen.

 

[Gallagbi]

Johansson is also much closer to the net/Rielly (and thus requires smaller distance travelled to pressure him) than Bratt was to the net/Borgman. Borgman would have had to travel a longer distance to get to Bratt.

All this talk of Marner needing to recognize what's happening and cover the front is ignoring that literally all of this happened within 1 second. Unless he has superhuman reflexes that was never going to happen.

If Marner's in position he's a step away from Zacha and can make a play as needed. Unfortunately he floated a few steps away and that's why he doesn't have the time to get back.

It's a great play by the Devil's though.

 

[Barilko14]

Gardiner had a terrible game against NJ but other than that him and Zaitsev have been near neck and neck as our best D.

Rielly on the other hand....I can't think of a single thing he does well. Often mishandles the puck, mediocre to awful defensive awareness, not physical, little offensive creativity. I guess he can skate good but that's about it.

That Zacha goal on the PP where he chased the guy behind the net instead of covering his man in front was amateur level stuff. And then there is his shot; A lot of times he fails to get it through but when he does I honestly cannot count the number of times it's gone square into the goalie's crest. Just shoot the puck low for a tip or aim somewhere else if you're going to shoot high. He seems to have a case of Jason Blake syndrome.

His play is beyond frustrating and it seems like he's getting worse not better with experience. Gardiner proved my opinion of him wrong so I hope that Rielly does the same in the long run.

Your bias is shining through here a little bit!

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Your bias is shining through here a little bit!

It’s funny you say that because I used to say a lot of the same things about Gardiner yet I consider him a top pair D despite his occasional brain farts.

It’s my honest opinion. I am harder on Reilly because I expect more from the obvious talent he has. His development seems to be stagnating at best. If you can tell me what he does well, I’m all ears.

 

[Barilko14]

It’s funny you say that because I used to say a lot of the same things about Gardiner yet I consider him a top pair D despite his occasional brain farts.

It’s my honest opinion. I am harder on Reilly because I expect more from the obvious talent he has. His development seems to be stagnating at best. If you can tell me what he does well, I’m all ears.

Well let's just examine your points:
- Often mishandles the puck - obviously not often, if it was often he wouldn't be in the NHL. If he mishandled it "often", how would you describe guys like Marincin (last year) or Borgman so far this year? Mishandles the puck constantly?
- Mediocre to awful defensive awareness - again, if this were the case he likely isn't an AHL player, let alone an NHL top 4 dman. He's not elite is in his awareness, but his biggest issue has been trying to over compensate mainly due to playing on terrible defensive teams, with subpar partners and usually playing against top competition.
- Not physical - neither is about 60-70% of dmen out there these days.
- Little offensive creativity - Babcock admitted at the start of this season he wanted Rielly only concentrating on defensive play.

IMO, Rielly has picked up where he left off in the playoffs last year, and has been a steady two-way dman, while putting up a few pts on the PP.

I think people expectations for Rielly last year were a little off. Asked again to cut down on his strengths (offence), play with a rookie Dman getting acclimated to NA ice, play as tough as minutes as anyone in the league, while playing on a team with 7+ rookies in the lineup every night. Were you expecting a 50+ pt dman that shutdown Crosby, Kucherov, etc. each and every night, cause he's likely in the Norris convo if he pulled that off.

Also, your point on bad positioning on the PK goal against Devils was thoroughly discussed in this very thread, and pretty well proven to be a bad read Borgman, but continue ragging on Rielly at any chance.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Well let's just examine your points:
- Often mishandles the puck - obviously not often, if it was often he wouldn't be in the NHL. If he mishandled it "often", how would you describe guys like Marincin (last year) or Borgman so far this year? Mishandles the puck constantly?
.

Rielly mishandles the puck in two forms. The less frequent form is outright losing the puck while its on his stick, something we saw Gardiner do a lot of last game. The other and more prevalent form is that he loses momentary control of the puck (ex: zones out looking up the ice to make a pass), manages to retrieve it but follows it up with a bad pass/play as a result of the mishandle. I've seen this happen too many times already this season and it was a problem he had last year as well. I don't have any metrics to prove this to you objectively but I'm not out to hate on the guy, it happens too much. Borgman is a rookie so I am willing to give him a pass, he hasn't had 316 games of NHL experience to figure things out yet. As for Marincin, I would describe him as an AHLer.

- Mediocre to awful defensive awareness - again, if this were the case he likely isn't an AHL player, let alone an NHL top 4 dman. He's not elite is in his awareness, but his biggest issue has been trying to over compensate mainly due to playing on terrible defensive teams, with subpar partners and usually playing against top competition.

Doesn't change the fact that he is generally mediocre defensively and sometimes awful. He has his good games but when he's deviated from the norm, it's generally towards the awful end of the spectrum. There are top 4 D in this league who are mediocre defensively as well; some bring more elements to their game to compensate, others don't. They're no better than Rielly. I don't get how him being in the top 4 of a weak defensive team somehow establishes he is anything more than mediocre defensively. Your last line about compensation is a bit of a cop out, he does have to cover others mistakes from time to time and I'm not blaming him for those, but he is just as guilty himself.

- Not physical - neither is about 60-70% of dmen out there these days.

This is true. Doesn't change the fact that's not a strong aspect of his game.

- Little offensive creativity - Babcock admitted at the start of this season he wanted Rielly only concentrating on defensive play.

Babcock stated in his first season here that he wanted Rielly to focus on defense. Take that as an endorsement of his defensive game. Regardless, when he is across the other teams blueline, most of his plays end up as a wrister that generally hits the goalie square in the chest or it fails to get through. I can't recall the last time I said to myself that Rielly set that play up with a nice pass or well placed shot. Hopefully he starts rushing the puck more and gets more involved offensively 5v5. Based on his junior days, we know he's capable of it.

IMO, Rielly has picked up where he left off in the playoffs last year, and has been a steady two-way dman, while putting up a few pts on the PP.

I think people expectations for Rielly last year were a little off. Asked again to cut down on his strengths (offence), play with a rookie Dman getting acclimated to NA ice, play as tough as minutes as anyone in the league, while playing on a team with 7+ rookies in the lineup every night. Were you expecting a 50+ pt dman that shutdown Crosby, Kucherov, etc. each and every night, cause he's likely in the Norris convo if he pulled that off.

Also, your point on bad positioning on the PK goal against Devils was thoroughly discussed in this very thread, and pretty well proven to be a bad read Borgman, but continue ragging on Rielly at any chance.

Rielly picked it up in the playoffs and I was very happy to see that. I don't see that same player so far. Doesn't seem as engaged and lacks that intensity. He needs to play with that type of effort and consistency much more frequently than he currently does. If we get playoffs Rielly in the regular season, you won't be hearing complaints from me.

I'm not expecting a 50+ point dman. I'm expecting him to breakout and progress at some point and he still hasn't done that yet. He has moments where it looks like he's taking the next step but they are never sustained.

Also, your point on bad positioning on the PK goal against Devils was thoroughly discussed in this very thread, and pretty well proven to be a bad read Borgman, but continue ragging on Rielly at any chance.

Yes, it was thoroughly discussed. Pretty well proven is absolutely your opinion and the debate to contrary still seems to be going on prior to my initial post. There is no consensus as far as I can tell but continue believing that I'm ragging on Rielly any chance I get as if I want him to fail.

 

[Barilko14]

Rielly mishandles the puck in two forms. The less frequent form is outright losing the puck while its on his stick, something we saw Gardiner do a lot of last game. The other and more prevalent form is that he loses momentary control of the puck (ex: zones out looking up the ice to make a pass), manages to retrieve it but follows it up with a bad pass/play as a result of the mishandle. I've seen this happen too many times already this season and it was a problem he had last year as well. I don't have any metrics to prove this to you objectively but I'm not out to hate on the guy, it happens too much. Borgman is a rookie so I am willing to give him a pass, he hasn't had 316 games of NHL experience to figure things out yet. As for Marincin, I would describe him as an AHLer.

Doesn't change the fact that he is generally mediocre defensively and sometimes awful. He has his good games but when he's deviated from the norm, it's generally towards the awful end of the spectrum. There are top 4 D in this league who are mediocre defensively as well; some bring more elements to their game to compensate, others don't. They're no better than Rielly. I don't get how him being in the top 4 of a weak defensive team somehow establishes he is anything more than mediocre defensively. Your last line about compensation is a bit of a cop out, he does have to cover others mistakes from time to time and I'm not blaming him for those, but he is just as guilty himself.

This is true. Doesn't change the fact that's not a strong aspect of his game.

Babcock stated in his first season here that he wanted Rielly to focus on defense. Take that as an endorsement of his defensive game. Regardless, when he is across the other teams blueline, most of his plays end up as a wrister that generally hits the goalie square in the chest or it fails to get through. I can't recall the last time I said to myself that Rielly set that play up with a nice pass or well placed shot. Hopefully he starts rushing the puck more and gets more involved offensively 5v5. Based on his junior days, we know he's capable of it.

Rielly picked it up in the playoffs and I was very happy to see that. I don't see that same player so far. Doesn't seem as engaged and lacks that intensity. He needs to play with that type of effort and consistency much more frequently than he currently does. If we get playoffs Rielly in the regular season, you won't be hearing complaints from me.

I'm not expecting a 50+ point dman. I'm expecting him to breakout and progress at some point and he still hasn't done that yet. He has moments where it looks like he's taking the next step but they are never sustained.

Yes, it was thoroughly discussed. Pretty well proven is absolutely your opinion and the debate to contrary still seems to be going on prior to my initial post. There is no consensus as far as I can tell but continue believing that I'm ragging on Rielly any chance I get as if I want him to fail.

At this point as you noted we are getting into a lot of opinion, the points we can continue too discuss can't be "proven" one way or the other without checking all the mins he's played this year and previous years.
My main point was I think you are exaggerating in your original post, and you won't be able to convince me he's terrible defensively or that he often mishandles the puck (I will point out I've already heard several complaints about the ACC ice this season) . I also don't believe that not being physical is a detriment to his game, and I while I do agree he's not overly creative offensively, this doesn't mean he can't produce. He does have more skilled fwds to work with than most other dmen in the league, so getting into their hands is never a bad idea, also I believe he's getting better at getting his shot through, particularly on the PP, which is half the battle these days.
With 4 fwds proving the more effective way to go on the PP, the days of the PP relying on the"Weber" slap shot for success are going the way of the enforcer.