hfboardsuser
Registered User
- Nov 18, 2004
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I don't see how a guy who won cups with two teams (being a leading light on both) and after Gretzky left town could possibly be a cancer of any sort but each to his own.
By destroying a locker room and turning a contender into a bottom feeder who couldn't contend for the playoffs until he got out of town.
Hey chooch,
Wayne Gretzky is the best Hockey player ever.
Signed, Record Books.
Barry Bonds a better player than Ruth? Different era's and positions between them as well as Orr and Gretzky- personally I think Mario was a better player than Gretzky.
My top 5 I have seen
Orr
Lemieux
Gretzky
Howe
Hull
Darn right Mario was better than 99, I have Mario at #1, 99 at #12. No bodyguard, numerous injuries casued by close checking, and a career in the tougher East.
Orr v. Mario is difficult - both lost when they shouldnt have - Orr in 71 and 74 with the best teams and Mario in 93. I excuse 66 from that season for obvious reasons.
Question - would Orr have been Orr had he played till 40?
In order to do so and remain relatively injury free (except for the Adam Graves chopping hands etc) woudl he have played like Scott Nediermeyer? Or asked another way would Scott be considered an Orr if he played recklessly like Orr and retired at 28?
In any case ...Orr was amazing.
Nalyd, you know you have my utmost respect, but I think you're trying to blot out those two Canuck years pre-Messier from your memory. Vancouver wasn't a contender before he arrived. They made the playoffs in the final game of the season in 1995-96, and missed the playoffs in 1996-97, finishing with the best record among non-playoff teams only because they went 6-1-3 down the stretch. Messier didn't ruin the team. If the acquisition of anyone did, it was Alexander Mogilny. But Messier certainly didn't help.By destroying a locker room and turning a contender into a bottom feeder who couldn't contend for the playoffs until he got out of town.
He's likely the classiest guy in sports.
His play in 76 Canada Cup was a pathetic parody of who he was.
Well...you got something right!
Even playing on basically one knee he was the MVP in that series. Imagine if he had two good wheels??
I can't wait to see your next flavour of the month with who gets moved into your top 5 of all time, while knocking down such legends as Orr....especially when they can't hold a candle to him in the history of this game.
Jagr is a great player but not great enough to ever top Orr IMO.
I still say #12 is too high. I would think an Oilers historian would know better.
Nalyd, you know you have my utmost respect, but I think you're trying to blot out those two Canuck years pre-Messier from your memory. Vancouver wasn't a contender before he arrived. They made the playoffs in the final game of the season in 1995-96, and missed the playoffs in 1996-97, finishing with the best record among non-playoff teams only because they went 6-1-3 down the stretch. Messier didn't ruin the team. If the acquisition of anyone did, it was Alexander Mogilny. But Messier certainly didn't help.
I think Messier's leadership is a little overrated, I would rate guys like Beliveau, Clarke, Esposito and Yzerman as better leaders. But he was still a dominant locker room presence, especially in his first New York stint.
The Vancouver years? Bad situation.Those days in the twilight years of his career cancel absolutely nothing out of Messier in his prime as a player. It did'nt work in Vancouver but maybe his teammates had as much to do with that teams failures as anything he brought to the table.
The guy was a tremendous player and a true winner and leader both in the NHL and Internationally,his time in vancouver will never change that.He's a legend of the game and after Wayne and Mario there isn't another forward i would pick over him since watching hockey myself.
super player..........highly skilled,strength,speed,leader,mean as a son of a ***** and had loads of balls.
He's my type of player.
I can see how some people may not have Gretzky at #1, 2 or even 3 but 12, c'mon buddy, are you serious? Do you really hate Gretzky that much? the dude rewrote the record books, I don't care how good the teams he was on or what era he played in, he set records that no one will likely ever touch again. Could you please share your list of players below Gretzky?Darn right Mario was better than 99, I have Mario at #1, 99 at #12. No bodyguard, numerous injuries casued by close checking, and a career in the tougher East.
Orr v. Mario is difficult - both lost when they shouldnt have - Orr in 71 and 74 with the best teams and Mario in 93. I excuse 66 from that season for obvious reasons.
Question - would Orr have been Orr had he played till 40?
In order to do so and remain relatively injury free (except for the Adam Graves chopping hands etc) woudl he have played like Scott Nediermeyer? Or asked another way would Scott be considered an Orr if he played recklessly like Orr and retired at 28?
In any case ...Orr was amazing.
I would agree with you that he's a phenominal player, I'd rank him as the 5th or 6th best center ever. But 7 years of bad leadership does taint his leadership record.
I can see how some people may not have Gretzky at #1, 2 or even 3 but 12, c'mon buddy, are you serious? Do you really hate Gretzky that much? the dude rewrote the record books, I don't care how good the teams he was on or what era he played in, he set records that no one will likely ever touch again. Could you please share your list of players below Gretzky?
1979-80 Hart Memorial Trophy 1979-80 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1980-81 Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 Hart Memorial Trophy 1981-82 Art Ross Trophy 1981-82 Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1982-83 Art Ross Trophy 1982-83 Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1983-84 Art Ross Trophy 1983-84 Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1984-85 Art Ross Trophy 1984-85 Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 Conn Smythe Trophy 1984-85 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1985-86 Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 Hart Memorial Trophy 1986-87 Art Ross Trophy 1986-87 Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1987-88 Conn Smythe Trophy 1988-89 Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1993-94 Art Ross Trophy 1993-94 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
buddy, show me 11 players with a more impressive resume?
Did Mark Messier suddenly lose his leasership abilities? Maybe his teams just weren't that good?
The problem is that both the Canucks and Rangers had the talent, but were absolute disasters chemistry wise. There are alot of factors going into that. (Bure being a ***** by the time Messier arrived, Jeff Brown sleeping with McLean's wife, killing McLean's mental game. Or in New York, simply being proof that you cannot buy chemistry.)
But alot of it was Messier, his complete inability to work with the established leaders on the Canucks, burning bridges rather than building them. He came to Vancouver not with the intent to be a Canuck, but for the Canucks to be Messier's team. That's the kind of crap I expect from a Pavel Bure, not one of the so called greatest leaders ever.
I would agree with you that he's a phenominal player, I'd rank him as the 5th or 6th best center ever. But 7 years of bad leadership does taint his leadership record.
If you watched the series which you obviously didnt, you 'd know he was the MVP on sentiment alone. He wasnt named the tournaments best dman or an allstar if I recall yet won the MVP.
Orr had 6 outstanding seasons and was finished at age 26. And he's still top 5 in my books. Rest easy tonight, chap.
I can see how some people may not have Gretzky at #1, 2 or even 3 but 12, c'mon buddy, are you serious? Do you really hate Gretzky that much? the dude rewrote the record books, I don't care how good the teams he was on or what era he played in, he set records that no one will likely ever touch again. Could you please share your list of players below Gretzky?
1979-80 Hart Memorial Trophy 1979-80 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1980-81 Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 Hart Memorial Trophy 1981-82 Art Ross Trophy 1981-82 Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1982-83 Art Ross Trophy 1982-83 Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1983-84 Art Ross Trophy 1983-84 Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1984-85 Art Ross Trophy 1984-85 Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 Conn Smythe Trophy 1984-85 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1985-86 Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 Hart Memorial Trophy 1986-87 Art Ross Trophy 1986-87 Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1987-88 Conn Smythe Trophy 1988-89 Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1993-94 Art Ross Trophy 1993-94 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
buddy, show me 11 players with a more impressive resume?
That's your call and as such i respect it,i don't agree with it but i respect it when you explain your side.
Now,back to who should go down as the better player in league history.....him or Jammy.
Messier's got six cups and with different teams,2nd all time in league history in points and still considered maybe the best captain in league history whether we agree on how good he was in that regard or not(remember,6 cups and on two differnt teams is hard to not give him at least proper respect in the leadership department)
And many people around here tend to just assume that after Mario and Wayne Jagr is the best we've seen among forwards.Seriousely,that has got to be more then questioned.
On talent alone he most likely is,but when their careers are analysed carefully i think he clearly loses out to the Moose unless he does something with the rest of his career that can turn the tables in his favour.
There isn't one single guy on these boards that is as under-rated as Messier IMO.It's hard to believe how under the radar the guy is.
This is nothing against your view,just curious as to who you think was the better player between those two.Especially considering that you said you would'nt want a guy like Messier on your team because of leadership issues but we all now what kind of a locker-room presence Jagr can and has been.
I can see how some people may not have Gretzky at #1, 2 or even 3 but 12, c'mon buddy, are you serious? Do you really hate Gretzky that much? the dude rewrote the record books, I don't care how good the teams he was on or what era he played in, he set records that no one will likely ever touch again. Could you please share your list of players below Gretzky?
1979-80 Hart Memorial Trophy 1979-80 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1980-81 Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 Hart Memorial Trophy 1981-82 Art Ross Trophy 1981-82 Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1982-83 Art Ross Trophy 1982-83 Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1983-84 Art Ross Trophy 1983-84 Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1984-85 Art Ross Trophy 1984-85 Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 Conn Smythe Trophy 1984-85 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1985-86 Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 Hart Memorial Trophy 1986-87 Art Ross Trophy 1986-87 Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1987-88 Conn Smythe Trophy 1988-89 Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1993-94 Art Ross Trophy 1993-94 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
buddy, show me 11 players with a more impressive resume?