Crosbyfan
Registered User
- Nov 27, 2003
- 12,668
- 2,490
Be honest, how many points would ORR put up today in this no hold, no hook, Ice Capades of a hockey league we're watching now?
Be honest.
Honestly at 58 years old on rebuilt knees I wouldn't expect very many.
And Jagr will be a first-ballot HHOFer, what's your point? Bob Pulford is in the HHOF. Does that mean he was a better player than Jagr.Orr is in the HHOF
Theres no such thing as a gurantee when it comes to the HHOF unless your Gretzky or Lemieux so until he's in you can't compare him to Orr
No, actually there are a lot of guarantees. Roy was a guaranteed first-ballot HHOFer. He got in. So were Bourque, Coffey, Stastny, Gartner and Kurri. They got in on the first ballot, too. Jagr - he of five scoring titles, three top player awards and two rings - will be inducted three years after he retires, in other words, on the first ballot. Just like Yzerman, Sakic, Lidstrom, Hasek and Chelios.
Are you saying that the only measuring stick for greatness is the HHOF? As much as we critique the HHOF for laxed standards (it's getting better, but Duff and Gillies shouldn't be there, and Federko is very, very questionable), it's a hell of a lot better than it was in the first 20 years. In fact, 27 players were inducted in the regrettable class of 62. While that included some very deserving players like Punch Broadbent, Harry Cameron and Didier Pitre, there were many more who even the most ardent of fans hadn't heard of, and had no place in the HHOF.
Newbie, how many Dmen have EARNED the Art Ross since ORR???????????????????
How many before???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
son, respect the History of the game.
There's been one and only ORR.
Forever27
Registered User
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,351
- 0
Quoted for truth. I'd put any amount of money on it you want. He's going in. 4 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearsons, a Hart, 7 time first team all-star selections, 2 Stanley Cups, and by the end of his career barring catastrophe he'll be a top 10 all time scorer, with a realistic shot at the 1800 barrier. First ballot for sure.
Be honest, how many points would ORR put up today in this no hold, no hook, Ice Capades of a hockey league we're watching now?
Be honest.
Honestly?
90-100 points. I don't see him winning a scoring title in this day and age where defensive schemes are very difficult to break down and the goaltending is far more superior. Furthermore, defensemen of today are far more mobile and quicker than in the 70's.
Yeah it's pretty hard to compare era's, Orr likely would've evolved with the times though. Better fitness, better equiptment better coaching.
Trottier
Very Random
I used to turn to The History of Hockey Board as an escape from the usual absurdity found on the main board here at HF, which is now seemingly dominated by born in the 90s fantasy league prepubecents who cannot decipher between a numbers game and the real sport, and who consider the flavor of the month the greatest thing ever.
Sadly, this thread has me wondering if in fact there is any difference in the two boards anymore. Jaromir Jagr #4? Please. Gordie Howe, far as I could tell, never stole money, as the petulent Jagr did for a couple of seasons in Washington.
Moreover, any comparsion with Bobby Orr is blasphemous. Offered up by one from the "born yesterday" crowd, it's an understandable lack of perspective and disregard for anything that came before, oh say, last year.
Offered up by anyone fortunate to have seen #4 play, it's plain silly.
Claiming that Jagr is a better player than Orr is like declaring that Ovechkin (or is it Crosby or Malkin this week?
) is better than Jagr. Which is to say, go back to school and do your homework. Are we all so bereft of any memory or perspective?
mcphee
Registered User
Yup. On another thread some kid was arguing Orr against some great Soviet d men, and asking for some kind of irrefutable proof. My avatar suggests a song writer that I think very highly of, I can't prove his greatness beyond record sales and any yard stick I'd use, in an attempt to make myself 'right'. There is no official yardstick to measure greatness, but at a point, you can say, 'man,you just had to see him'. Anyone who saw things Orr would do on the ice on a regular basis would understand that.I used to turn to The History of Hockey Board as an escape from the usual absurdity found on the main board here at HF, which is now seemingly dominated by born in the 90s fantasy league prepubecents who cannot decipher between a numbers game and the real sport, and who consider the flavor of the month the greatest thing ever.
Sadly, this thread has me wondering if in fact there is any difference in the two boards anymore. Jaromir Jagr #4? Please. Gordie Howe, far as I could tell, never stole money, as the petulent Jagr did for a couple of seasons in Washington.
Moreover, any comparsion with Bobby Orr is blasphemous. Offered up by one from the "born yesterday" crowd, it's an understandable lack of perspective and disregard for anything that came before, oh say, last year.
Offered up by anyone fortunate to have seen #4 play, it's plain silly.
Claiming that Jagr is a better player than Orr is like declaring that Ovechkin (or is it Crosby or Malkin this week?
Which is to say, go back to school and do your homework. Are we all so bereft of any memory or perspective?
Try and explain to a 20 year old baseball fan how great Roberto Clemente was.
Any given night with Orr, there was a good chance that you might see something that no one had ever done before. Longevity affects historical greatness, so the Orr/Gretz/Lemieux discussions are valid, but if you saw Orr, you saw something special.
I like the comparison between hockey and music…..but I think that actually illustrates the point that if Orr was around today --- Jagr>Orr.
Like you said, judging music is difficult b/c it comes down to what each individual listener likes; but you can make judgments based on influence and cultural relevance.
Dylan was easily more influential and had more to say than anybody today – but you have to put it into the context of its time. If, say, Blonde on Blonde came out today it’d still be a great album but it wouldn’t be nearly as revolutionary nor influential as it was in its time…...certainly affecting how we view its 'greatness'.
Conversely, think of what would have happened if you dropped Radiohead in the middle of 1966. I don’t think people would have even been able to comprehend it. The ramifications of what that would have done to the musical landscape would have been downright insane.
The exact same thing would have happened if you transported Jagr to the 60’s and Orr to today.
By no means (looking at the big picture) am I saying Jagr>Orr...or Radiohead>Dylan. But if they both played during the same era - one could definately make that case.
CoupeStanley
Registered User
I used to turn to The History of Hockey Board as an escape from the usual absurdity found on the main board here at HF, which is now seemingly dominated by born in the 90s fantasy league prepubecents who cannot decipher between a numbers game and the real sport, and who consider the flavor of the month the greatest thing ever.
Sadly, this thread has me wondering if in fact there is any difference in the two boards anymore. Jaromir Jagr #4? Please. Gordie Howe, far as I could tell, never stole money, as the petulent Jagr did for a couple of seasons in Washington.
Moreover, any comparsion with Bobby Orr is blasphemous. Offered up by one from the "born yesterday" crowd, it's an understandable lack of perspective and disregard for anything that came before, oh say, last year.
Offered up by anyone fortunate to have seen #4 play, it's plain silly.
Claiming that Jagr is a better player than Orr is like declaring that Ovechkin (or is it Crosby or Malkin this week?
Which is to say, go back to school and do your homework. Are we all so bereft of any memory or perspective?
Jagr was my #4 of whom I watched (since 71).
Orr comparisons are blasphemous only since you are brainwashed by the english media. Orr was a God you say? Did you watch the 74 Finals by any chance? How about the 71 quarterfinals? Or Orr try to play defence after 1972?Hate to say anything bad since he was screwed by the Eagle and bad med tech. He's likely the classiest guy in sports.
His play in 76 Canada Cup was a pathetic parody of who he was. Even his partner, Potvin thought so. Buy the dvd's. That leaves about 6-7 years of outstanding hockey and thus a good reason to elevate Jagr above him.
Let me guess - you dont like Europeans nor visor wearin' wussies
He's up there with Mario and Jagr as the best over the past 35 years.
The times they are a changin'. Dont let your nostalgia tinted glasses get the best of ya, Hurricane.
* Note: Because of HF's inconsistencies, I don't want to go through this whole thread. I am assuming we are comparing who was a better player. *
I cannot believe this is even a question.
Let me make a list of the player who I believe were more talented than Orr:
...
...
...
Um, I got nothin'. I consider Orr the most talented hockey player who has EVER lived. Jagr isn't even in the Top 10, IMO. Despite Orr's injuries, I'd take Orr 112 times out of 10, and I find it hard to believe that someone would choose otherwise, personally. I find choosing Jagr here to be an absolute slap to the face of the game's past.
And I agree with Trots. Comparisons to Orr, along with comparisons to The Great One and Le Magnifique, should 110% (no pun intended; we aren't talking about ridiculously biased opinions being sources of truth here) be off limits. These are more than heroes. They are all-time legends of the game. Legends. They are immortals who will be talked about, loved and admired forever. They are missed terribly by anyone who appreciates pure magic. They will never lose relevance. No one plays like Orr. No one plays like Gretzky. No one plays like Lemieux. NO ONE.
"Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die."
Period.
I cannot believe this is even a question.
Let me make a list of the player who I believe were more talented than Orr:
...
...
...
Um, I got nothin'. I consider Orr the most talented hockey player who has EVER lived. Jagr isn't even in the Top 10, IMO. Despite Orr's injuries, I'd take Orr 112 times out of 10, and I find it hard to believe that someone would choose otherwise, personally. I find choosing Jagr here to be an absolute slap to the face of the game's past.
And I agree with Trots. Comparisons to Orr, along with comparisons to The Great One and Le Magnifique, should 110% (no pun intended; we aren't talking about ridiculously biased opinions being sources of truth here) be off limits. These are more than heroes. They are all-time legends of the game. Legends. They are immortals who will be talked about, loved and admired forever. They are missed terribly by anyone who appreciates pure magic. They will never lose relevance. No one plays like Orr. No one plays like Gretzky. No one plays like Lemieux. NO ONE.
"Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die."
Period.
trevchar1971
Registered User
- Jun 1, 2006
- 509
- 0
* Note: Because of HF's inconsistencies, I don't want to go through this whole thread. I am assuming we are comparing who was a better player. *
I cannot believe this is even a question.
Let me make a list of the player who I believe were more talented than Orr:
...
...
...
Um, I got nothin'. I consider Orr the most talented hockey player who has EVER lived. Jagr isn't even in the Top 10, IMO. Despite Orr's injuries, I'd take Orr 112 times out of 10, and I find it hard to believe that someone would choose otherwise, personally. I find choosing Jagr here to be an absolute slap to the face of the game's past.
And I agree with Trots. Comparisons to Orr, along with comparisons to The Great One and Le Magnifique, should 110% (no pun intended; we aren't talking about ridiculously biased opinions being sources of truth here) be off limits. These are more than heroes. They are all-time legends of the game. Legends. They are immortals who will be talked about, loved and admired forever. They are missed terribly by anyone who appreciates pure magic. They will never lose relevance. No one plays like Orr. No one plays like Gretzky. No one plays like Lemieux. NO ONE.
"Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die."
Period.
Well said.
mcphee
Registered User
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I guess I try and keep comparisons relative to the era. I'd imagine Orr as a bigger man in 2006 who no one could get the puck from. Of course these days, teams defend areas more than players so, his numbers would be affected, but we could do this 'til the cows come home, it just isn't definitive.
When I say that I consider Orr the greatest, I do wonder about 71&74, how did they lose ? Teams win and teams lose is all I come up with. How long until the Oilers got past the Islanders ? That team needed finishing touches. Orr won twice, and twice they got caught up in 'destiny' years and didn't get it done. Coaches went after Orr with a plan and it worked. It doesn't change my opinion though. Every great player only one when surrounded by a great team.
Chooch, I'm not sure who the English media is who built up Orr, that's a pretty broad description.
Frankly, I don't know if Orr is one of the classier guys around. I think he's someone we know little about. I consider him a gracious sort, he carries himself well, but past that.... I'm looking forward to reading Steven Brunt's book about him that was released recently. For all we know about the legend on the ice, we know little else.
I got to thinking about some of the great players i've watched over the years and it seems like a given among some people that Jagr is on the next level down from Gretzky and Lemieux in terms of forwards over the past 2 decades and while offensively he probably is i still don't think he's even the best forward not named Gretzky/Mario that i've watched in the last 25 years.I would put Messier ahead of Jagr too.Sure,Jagr had more offensive gifts but there is more to a player then offensive gifts and while Messier loses out to Jags there he did a lot of other things to help a team win that more then makes up the difference and leaves me always feeling he was a better player.Given a choice between both players at their best for my team i would take Messier over Jagr and not sweat it at all.
And now i'm being asked to take Jagr over Bobby Orr no less.
Not going to happen.
And now i'm being asked to take Jagr over Bobby Orr no less.
Not going to happen.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I'd take Sergio Momesso over that cancer Messier...
Here's the thing about Orr. Scott Neidermeyer is debatably the best player in the NHL. Scott Neidermeyer plays like a less talented Bobby Orr. That would make Orr the clear cut best player in the NHL now.
Here's the thing about Orr. Scott Neidermeyer is debatably the best player in the NHL. Scott Neidermeyer plays like a less talented Bobby Orr. That would make Orr the clear cut best player in the NHL now.
mcphee
Registered User
I remember the Vigneault/King coached Habs beating the Pens in a series a few years back when they in effect played 2 forward, 3 D, line against Jagr. Zalapski or Rivet were charged with cutting off his ice and denying him the puck and it worked. I say this because he's one of the few players that teams have to adress to have a chance. During his Pitt. years, it seems Mtl always played their most entertaining games against them, but I don't know how often they had the better of the play for 58 minutes and Jagr exploited the other 2 minutes to beat them.
If you're going to have a rag tag team and one star, I'd go with Jagr as he can take a team to a certain level on his own, with all the supporting cast catered to him. He isn't good enough to make them win on his own though, it just doesn't work that way.
Still, I agree with you that Jagr's on that level just below the best. His best games are as dominant as anyone's though.
mcphee
Registered User
I don't see how a guy who won cups with two teams (being a leading light on both) and after Gretzky left town could possibly be a cancer of any sort but each to his own.
Momesso over the moose?....i'll pass on that one.I'll pass on Jagr over Mess too myself.
I remember that series,yep,we did a heck of a job on the big fella.We had to or we would have been toast.
I think Jagr on pure ability alone probably ranks on a level with anyone i've seen play since i've been watching hockey with the exception of Mario Lemieux and in terms of downright dominance and effectiveness below only Mario and Wayne.What takes Jagr down for me was his mental game over the years.He was a pretty petulant guy who had seasons where he was'nt the player he could have been because the mood was'nt striking him. It's the kind of behaviour that you never see from stars that don't have all his gifts yet are stars such as Joe Sakic.For as great as Jagr was he could have been better and when that happens for anything other then injury problems it's a black mark for me.There are at least two guys other then Wayne and mario i would pick over Jagr for my team from players i've watched the last decade and a half..............Messier and Forsberg. Messier is really un-derrated around here (most likely due to his style of play where people just end up disliking the guy on a personal level) he's one of the best overall players i've ever seen play.I would take him over Jagr.
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