Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
By destroying a locker room and turning a contender into a bottom feeder who couldn't contend for the playoffs until he got out of town.
The Vancouver years? Bad situation.Those days in the twilight years of his career cancel absolutely nothing out of Messier in his prime as a player. It did'nt work in Vancouver but maybe his teammates had as much to do with that teams failures as anything he brought to the table.
The guy was a tremendous player and a true winner and leader both in the NHL and Internationally,his time in vancouver will never change that.He's a legend of the game and after Wayne and Mario there isn't another forward i would pick over him since watching hockey myself.
super player..........highly skilled,strength,speed,leader,mean as a son of a ***** and had loads of balls.
He's my type of player.
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until i see Yammy Jagr lead the league in points on defense... until that time comes I will chose Orr.
DKH
The Bergeron of HF
- Feb 27, 2002
- 74,183
- 51,911
I saw Orr's entire career, many games (50ish or more) from my parents front row lodge seats and although Jagr is a fantastic talent, not even close. Orr is by far the best player I ever saw. He commanded your attention whether in the crowd or on the ice. Bobby Clarke once said they used to go over in the locker room before Bruins games to not get caught up watching Orr in admiration while playing
(that is good enough for me)
(that is good enough for me)
DKH
The Bergeron of HF
- Feb 27, 2002
- 74,183
- 51,911
Barry Bonds a better player than Ruth? Different era's and positions between them as well as Orr and Gretzky- personally I think Mario was a better player than Gretzky.
My top 5 I have seen
Orr
Lemieux
Gretzky
Howe
Hull
Darn right Mario was better than 99, I have Mario at #1, 99 at #12. No bodyguard, numerous injuries casued by close checking, and a career in the tougher East.
Orr v. Mario is difficult - both lost when they shouldnt have - Orr in 71 and 74 with the best teams and Mario in 93. I excuse 66 from that season for obvious reasons.
Question - would Orr have been Orr had he played till 40?
In order to do so and remain relatively injury free (except for the Adam Graves chopping hands etc) woudl he have played like Scott Nediermeyer? Or asked another way would Scott be considered an Orr if he played recklessly like Orr and retired at 28?
In any case ...Orr was amazing.
Nalyd, you know you have my utmost respect, but I think you're trying to blot out those two Canuck years pre-Messier from your memory. Vancouver wasn't a contender before he arrived. They made the playoffs in the final game of the season in 1995-96, and missed the playoffs in 1996-97, finishing with the best record among non-playoff teams only because they went 6-1-3 down the stretch. Messier didn't ruin the team. If the acquisition of anyone did, it was Alexander Mogilny. But Messier certainly didn't help.
I think Messier's leadership is a little overrated, I would rate guys like Beliveau, Clarke, Esposito and Yzerman as better leaders. But he was still a dominant locker room presence, especially in his first New York stint.
tape-2-tape
Registered User
Well...you got something right!
Even playing on basically one knee he was the MVP in that series. Imagine if he had two good wheels??
I can't wait to see your next flavour of the month with who gets moved into your top 5 of all time, while knocking down such legends as Orr....especially when they can't hold a candle to him in the history of this game.
Jagr is a great player but not great enough to ever top Orr IMO.
If you watched the series which you obviously didnt, you 'd know he was the MVP on sentiment alone. He wasnt named the tournaments best dman or an allstar if I recall yet won the MVP.
Orr had 6 outstanding seasons and was finished at age 26. And he's still top 5 in my books. Rest easy tonight, chap.
I still say #12 is too high. I would think an Oilers historian would know better.
Toe Gretz is a fine coach though.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I'm trying to blot out everything between the end of the 94-95 season and the drafting of the Sedin twins thank you very much.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I would agree with you that he's a phenominal player, I'd rank him as the 5th or 6th best center ever. But 7 years of bad leadership does taint his leadership record.
I can see how some people may not have Gretzky at #1, 2 or even 3 but 12, c'mon buddy, are you serious? Do you really hate Gretzky that much? the dude rewrote the record books, I don't care how good the teams he was on or what era he played in, he set records that no one will likely ever touch again. Could you please share your list of players below Gretzky?
1979-80 Hart Memorial Trophy 1979-80 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1980-81 Art Ross Trophy
1980-81 Hart Memorial Trophy 1981-82 Art Ross Trophy 1981-82 Hart Memorial Trophy
1981-82 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1982-83 Art Ross Trophy 1982-83 Hart Memorial Trophy
1982-83 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1983-84 Art Ross Trophy 1983-84 Hart Memorial Trophy
1983-84 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1984-85 Art Ross Trophy 1984-85 Hart Memorial Trophy
1984-85 Conn Smythe Trophy 1984-85 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1985-86 Art Ross Trophy
1985-86 Hart Memorial Trophy 1986-87 Art Ross Trophy 1986-87 Hart Memorial Trophy
1986-87 Lester B. Pearson Trophy 1987-88 Conn Smythe Trophy 1988-89 Hart Memorial Trophy
1989-90 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Art Ross Trophy 1990-91 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1991-92 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy 1993-94 Art Ross Trophy 1993-94 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
1998-99 Lady Byng Memorial Trophy
buddy, show me 11 players with a more impressive resume?
Leadership is so over-examined. Sometimes things just happen.
Is Joe Sakic a great leader for captaining two Stanley Cup winners and winning a Conn Smyth, or a terrible one for captaining the most uninspired and downright awfull performance in the history of the national team?
Did Mark Messier suddenly lose his leasership abilities? Maybe his teams just weren't that good?
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
More goals than Mario. More assists than Mario. More points than Mario. Mario assists than Mario has points. More assists than anyone has points.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
The problem is that both the Canucks and Rangers had the talent, but were absolute disasters chemistry wise. There are alot of factors going into that. (Bure being a ***** by the time Messier arrived, Jeff Brown sleeping with McLean's wife, killing McLean's mental game. Or in New York, simply being proof that you cannot buy chemistry.)
But alot of it was Messier, his complete inability to work with the established leaders on the Canucks, burning bridges rather than building them. He came to Vancouver not with the intent to be a Canuck, but for the Canucks to be Messier's team. That's the kind of crap I expect from a Pavel Bure, not one of the so called greatest leaders ever.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
That's your call and as such i respect it,i don't agree with it but i respect it when you explain your side.
Now,back to who should go down as the better player in league history.....him or Jammy.
Messier's got six cups and with different teams,2nd all time in league history in points and still considered maybe the best captain in league history whether we agree on how good he was in that regard or not(remember,6 cups and on two differnt teams is hard to not give him at least proper respect in the leadership department)
And many people around here tend to just assume that after Mario and Wayne Jagr is the best we've seen among forwards.Seriousely,that has got to be more then questioned.
On talent alone he most likely is,but when their careers are analysed carefully i think he clearly loses out to the Moose unless he does something with the rest of his career that can turn the tables in his favour.
There isn't one single guy on these boards that is as under-rated as Messier IMO.It's hard to believe how under the radar the guy is.
This is nothing against your view,just curious as to who you think was the better player between those two.Especially considering that you said you would'nt want a guy like Messier on your team because of leadership issues but we all now what kind of a locker-room presence Jagr can and has been.
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tape-2-tape
Registered User
I didn't see this series 'live' but do have the DVD box set of it and Orr was easily worthy of his MVP award. He did not win on sentiment alone and finished tied for the lead in scoring at 9 PTS with Zhluktov and Potvin while playing injured, which those two players were not. Orr was the best all around player in that series at both ends of the ice......by far and I do believe I saw it with my own eyes.
I would have to say that Vachon was the big surprise and would be my #2 with his play after Dryden went down.
There....now I can sleep easy tonight.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I could list twenty more underrated players, but, I'll bite that Frank Foyston is just too far off the map to expect people to respect.
What I'll say is this, the biggest problem with Messier is that he didn't know when he wasn't a star. Just like Jagr in Washington. When Messier came to New York the first time, alot of Oiler buddies came with him, it may have been a new team, but the lockerroom was built for Messier. They won the cup with 8 ex-Oilers and a group of guys that were inexperienced when Messier stepped in or joined the Rangers after. Jagr is much the same way, surround him with his guys, like Straka, and he'll not be a problem, too many clashing personalities and it will. So far Jagr is still great, so he can still demand it be his team. For better or for worse, many, or most, star players will demand that the team be built around them, and a good GM and coach can do that with success. Pittsburgh was too cash strapped to do it and that created a huge problem.
When push comes to shove, a team built around Messier has won, so I'd have to go with him. But I still hate him for what he did to my team.
WHen Toe was playing I knew one day guys like you would point to his stats and trophies.
Dude he had the easiset career of any athlete in history...he was protected by guys on and off the ice; the oilers were in the easiest division in league history and waltzed to the finals every year playing AHL level teams. The first time they won the cup they played the islanders who had been hammered by the habs...Oilers had a 9 day layoff - think that didnt help? I could go on....
I dont care how many goals he scored as a 10 year old, every nhler forward scored in bunches as a kid. Born in Jan he was the biggest kid on the ice until he was 15.
EVer see a slashing call against him?
I just know you were born yesterday...I dont hate a guy who I have in my top 20...only fanatics would think that
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