Pre-Game Talk: Isles @ Leafs

Status
Not open for further replies.

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Finally, almost 2/3 into the season, we're starting to approach our optimal lineup.

Way to catch up, Babs.

Now, all we need is Rielly instead of Borgman, and then pray to the good lord that Babs maybe considers the possibility that swapping Kappy and Hyman might be a boost to both our 1st and 4th lines.
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
Optimal lineup for how long? He won't sit Martin or Polak long, and guaranteed he goes back to Kadri-Komarov.....and sits Kap
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
Gonna be a barnburner of a game I can feel it! I do think that once Zaits is healthy Polak will rotate out from time to time, at least that's what Babcock had done previous. We shall see.

Oh hey I just saw the lineup. Woot!

Polak wasn't going anywhere until Zaitsev was back, Babcock only likes certain people on the PK. It's crazy how many people ignored that fact when they were frustrated about Polak playing most games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fluke Schenn

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
Optimal lineup for how long? He won't sit Martin or Polak long, and guaranteed he goes back to Kadri-Komarov.....and sits Kap
Why do people do this (talk about things like this in such a black and white manner)? I feel like every single time someone tries to talk about how stubborn and egotistical Babcock is, or how likely/unlikely he is to do something, those people end up with egg on their faces shortly thereafter.
Sorry to call you out on this so specifically, as this is far from the worst offender - I just see lots of this kind of talk, and it always baffles me how certain people are about decisions they have nothing to do with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deepz

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,202
32,862
St. Paul, MN
Finally, almost 2/3 into the season, we're starting to approach our optimal lineup.

Way to catch up, Babs.

Now, all we need is Rielly instead of Borgman, and then pray to the good lord that Babs maybe considers the possibility that swapping Kappy and Hyman might be a boost to both our 1st and 4th lines.

We apparently just had A period of lineup and systems experimentation, and looks so far Babcocks biggest findings is that speed + skill is a winning formula over slow, low skill hockey.

Just need to hope that Martin and Polak stay as healthy scratches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blanche Blanche

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
Why do people do this (talk about things like this in such a black and white manner)? I feel like every single time someone tries to talk about how stubborn and egotistical Babcock is, or how likely/unlikely he is to do something, those people end up with egg on their faces shortly thereafter.
Sorry to call you out on this so specifically, as this is far from the worst offender - I just see lots of this kind of talk, and it always baffles me how certain people are about decisions they have nothing to do with.

It's pretty clear babcock is rigid (stubborn) when it comes to line combos, and stapling guys to eachother. He's done it all season. He may switch things up for a game and then he inevitably goes back - despite the fact certain lines just don't work well and aren't producing.
He's already stated before the ASG he'll go back to Kadri-Komarov. Not a fan of him being so set in his ways
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
I'd think these longterm lines (once Marleau/Martin/Komarov/Bozak/JVR contracts expire within the next 2 years) would be amazing in the future (given Bracco works out):
Hyman/Brown* - Matthews - Bracco
Hyman/Brown* - Kadri - Marner
Johnsson - Nylander - Kapanen
 

ULF_55

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
84,116
16,161
Mountain Standard Ti
Visit site
John Tavares will be on 1 of 2 teams next year either his own team NYI or the Leafs.

This is a good game for JT to determine who gives him the best chance at a Cup and this is a good audition.

Funny, I was thinking Tampa might be in there, Stamkos took a hometown discount to stay in Tampa, so they can probably make it work.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,213
9,192
Funny, I was thinking Tampa might be in there, Stamkos took a hometown discount to stay in Tampa, so they can probably make it work.


they are also bouncing around stadiums the next 3 years though
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,202
32,862
St. Paul, MN
A star player hasn’t left their home drafted team while they were in style in their primes since 2012 with Suter and Praise.

I think that’s pretty telling about JT’s chances of actually leaving the Isles (slim to none)
 
  • Like
Reactions: HamiltonNHL

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
It's pretty clear babcock is rigid (stubborn) when it comes to line combos, and stapling guys to eachother. He's done it all season. He may switch things up for a game and then he inevitably goes back - despite the fact certain lines just don't work well and aren't producing.
He's already stated before the ASG he'll go back to Kadri-Komarov. Not a fan of him being so set in his ways
Yeah, he said that, but what are our projected lines looking like for tomorrow? What he says and what he does are not always the same thing, especially when talking about the future. He was also very protective of Dermott when he first got called up, but has been very quick to trust him and give him bigger opportunities.
A lot of the lines that he's stuck with performed very well together last year, and keeping players together for extended periods allows them to build chemistry, and gives you larger sample sizes to draw information from. If we were switching up our lines all the time, people would be complaining that he was over-coaching an not allowing his players the time needed to gel.
We were told that he prefers size and grinders over skill, but Matthews is our top Forward in TOI/G, and Babcock's most trusted player upfront. Babcock has no problem with skill, it just needs to come with responsibility, especially when you're a young player learning the ropes. Earn trust and you've earned ice-time - I wouldn't want it any other way. (While Zach Hyman is #2 in EV TOI/G among Leafs Forwards, Nylander, Marleau, Kadri and Marner are 3rd-6th, respectively - Hardly grinders)
We were told that he would never give opportunities to the youth until they were "overripe", like in Detroit, but he then iced 7 rookies last year and took them to the Playoffs.
We were told that Polak and Martin would never sit a game as long as Babcock was the coach, but Dermott and Kapanen are still in the lineup as of today.
Babcock's stubbornness is over-stated, in my opinion, especially when taking into consideration that he is a Stanley Cup-winning coach who has done all of this before - he has reasons for being stubborn when he is, there's logic to it (maintaining balanced lines, Special Teams, etc.), but he's not even as stubborn as people like to paint him. We impatient fans who have no idea what it actually takes to build a Championship team should take a really, really big step back before assuming our "stubborn" coach doesn't know what he's doing. That's not to say that people should always defer to authority, everyone makes mistakes, but all we've done is get better and better under Babcock, and rise higher and higher in the Standings under his tutelage, and I have no reason to believe he suddenly hates scoring, or he's lost his touch, when he's given me no real reason to believe that.
People complained about how he used Rielly when he first got his hands on him, were upset that he wasn't putting him in a position that would "maximize his output" or whatever, but that worked out beautifully, and we've seen a more well-rounded Morgan Rielly because of it. Development and teaching takes time - The less you're switching things around on the guys trying to learn those things, the better.
Create a spot for them; let them grow; release them into the world; Repeat with the next wave of young impressionables.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Blanche Blanche

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
We apparently just had A period of lineup and systems experimentation, and looks so far Babcocks biggest findings is that speed + skill is a winning formula over slow, low skill hockey.

Just need to hope that Martin and Polak stay as healthy scratches.

TBH I bet the nerds in the front office have been screaming at babs about this all year, and it took him a good long cold streak to finally give in. But if I know Babs he may be stubborn but he's not stupid, he might give his preferred setup too long a look, but eventually he'll give up on it if it's not working.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,202
32,862
St. Paul, MN
TBH I bet the nerds in the front office have been screaming at babs about this all year, and it took him a good long cold streak to finally give in. But if I know Babs he may be stubborn but he's not stupid, he might give his preferred setup too long a look, but eventually he'll give up on it if it's not working.

Agreed.

It’s likely the current lineup was favsored/lobbied for by some in the front office. Babe is certainly stubborn but hopefully he managed to see what wasn’t working with the Leafs during their slump
 

Kamiccolo

Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
Aug 30, 2011
26,828
16,944
Undisclosed research facility
At this point I am thinking that Tavares might be a better bet than going for the D the year after. Our defense is not nearly as bad as we all thought and has improved. Still more coming up the pipeline and more signings already rumored to be happening. Tavares immediately gives the Leafs Pens like forward lethality with better depth. It might be next year that is our best year to make a run for it.

Kids all on ELC's
Kadri, Tavares in their primes
Marleau, Hainsey are some key vets who can still contribute and provide stability when needed
And a ton of depth.

Compare this to those D. All of them are going to be basically 30 and command 12M AAV +. At least Tavares would give us at least 2-3 seasons of prime years before he started slowing down, and his 7 year deal would mean even at the end of it he will likely be over paid but not a burden on the organization.
 

supermann_98

Registered User
May 8, 2002
9,458
7,807
Visit site
A star player hasn’t left their home drafted team while they were in style in their primes since 2012 with Suter and Praise.

I think that’s pretty telling about JT’s chances of actually leaving the Isles (slim to none)
Agreed, and although it’s fun to speculate Tavares coming here the fact is that on the open market he could command 12.5m, which we would be crazy to offer considering the cap crunch we could be in very soon.

He’s shown no desire to leave NYI even with the rink issues and whatnot, not to mention he seems to love his teammates and they have a very competitive team. He’ll do what Stamkos did and use the Leafs to up his leverage in contract negotiations and then re-sign with the lsles. He doesn’t seem like the type of player who wants anything to do with the media circus here in TO
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
12,734
4,262
GTA or the UK
Going to this game as a birthday gift from my girl.

Excited because #BUDSALLDAY

But, after seeing that lineup? Ohh its going to be good.
 

PromisedLand

I need more FOOD
Dec 3, 2016
42,827
54,788
Hogwarts
It's almost as if Babs saw the same thing everybody else saw, but was trying to teach some players defense and work ethic and knew he would have to have some patience...

Ummm... I don’t agree with it. Bozak and JVR are well known for being defensive liabilities: JVR gets benched in the 3rd when protecting leads and Bozak sees his ice time fall as well.

What are as Marner learning “defensively” by playing with Bozak and JVR?

Biggest change I have seen is there is less dump and chase and more controlled zone entries
 

PromisedLand

I need more FOOD
Dec 3, 2016
42,827
54,788
Hogwarts
I bet because this is JT home and favourite team growing up that he circles these games at ACC on his calendar and looks forward to coming home.

A Matthews and JT 1-2 punch would be among the best combos in the league.

Can we afford it though?

MNMs and then JT
?
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,546
15,413
London, ON
"Babs knew the optimal lineup the whole time"

Yeah, ok, sure.

Proud of you Babs. Now lets hope this chip and chase system has run its course and Polak never wears the blue and white in a game situation again.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,546
15,413
London, ON
Can we afford it though?

MNMs and then JT
?

Realistically we can, even if we pay $24m (10, 7, 7) for the trio. Our only contracts that last past 2018-19 season are Rielly (5m), Andersen (5m), Marleau (6.25m), Kadri (4.5m), Zaitsev (4.5m), Hyman (2.75m), Martin (2.5m), and Brown (2.10m).

To be honest we'd probably have to trade at least one of Marleau/Kadri/Brown/Zaitsev/Martin to make it work long term, but we'd be golden next season...

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Leivo - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Kapanen
 

Mugzy97

#StandWitness
Mar 3, 2015
7,204
3,412
Halifax, NS
Ummm... I don’t agree with it. Bozak and JVR are well known for being defensive liabilities: JVR gets benched in the 3rd when protecting leads and Bozak sees his ice time fall as well.

What are as Marner learning “defensively” by playing with Bozak and JVR?

Biggest change I have seen is there is less dump and chase and more controlled zone entries
I'm sorry but I don't think I mentioned Marner.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad