Ansar Khan: I reckon this is the plan...

[Run the Jewels]

Damn. Smith for a 3rd, and Vanek for a 2nd seems pretty doable, no?

5 picks in the first 3 rounds would be pretty awesome.. that's almost like what re-building teams do!

Here's the Kenny we all know and loathe:

McKenzie: Before #RedWings potentially trade Brendan Smith, they're going to talk to his reps this week about cost of poss. extension. 2/2

 

[Heaton]

I'll guess 5 years 20 million, Holland would sign that immediately.

 

[Reddwit]

Not sure if this was posted else where but according to McKenzie there is a ton of interest in Smith.




https://twitter.com/nicholsonhockey/status/834186537512284163

I'm not surprised. Young-ish, versatile, cheap contract, UFA, mobile, good size...those are all great assets for a #5 when he's actually playing behind 4 legitimate top 4 defenseman.

And GMs aren't immune to hype either. They'll project their hopes on to Smith in some degree. Wouldn't be surprised if there are a pack of hockey minds thinking Smith just needs a change of scenery.

 

[Frk It]

I'm not surprised. Young-ish, versatile, cheap contract, UFA, mobile, good size...those are all great assets for a #5 when he's actually playing behind 4 legitimate top 4 defenseman.

And GMs aren't immune to hype either. They'll project their hopes on to Smith in some degree. Wouldn't be surprised if there are a pack of hockey minds thinking Smith just needs a change of scenery.

I could see Pittsburgh wanting him for a lot of the same reasons they wanted Schultz. And isn't Maatta out for awhile?

I kinda hope he goes there and has a brain fart that costs them a playoff series

 

[SoupNazi]

I could see Pittsburgh wanting him for a lot of the same reasons they wanted Schultz. And isn't Maatta out for awhile?

I kinda hope he goes there and has a brain fart that costs them a playoff series

Honestly, this is the one reason I want to see him end up in Pittsburgh. That would just be so beautiful.

 

[HIFE]

I'm excited for a change, anything please. If Holland is selling when would we expect to hear the news? This weekend or into next week? Just before the deadline?

Bring on the rebuild!

 

[Cursed Lemon]

So let me get this straight. St Louis screws the lightning and Yzerman gets credit for the the return he's got. In the same freaking breath, Holland gets criticized when he got screwed by Datsyuk and possibly even received a better return....

Sure you're thinking rationally?

Arizona needed to hit the cap floor. They already had another retired player on their roster eating up a ****-ton of cap space. Meanwhile, Yzerman had absolutely zero leverage with New York. They had no reason whatsoever to give him anything when he had no bargaining power.

And quite frankly, saying "Holland's a genius for getting a lower draft pick" is one of the silliest things I've read in a while.

On the flip side was trading MSL for a guy that New York wouldn't sign to a contract extension themselves and was their dump not obvious as well.... You guys would be crushing Holland all day long if he then extended him, try doing the same to Yzerman and it will make more sense.

I never said Yzerman has never made any mistakes. There's no such thing as a flawless GM. The original contention here, if people look back, is that Yzerman is somehow a poorer GM than Holland given the last five years or so. I'm calling super-********. Callahan also went on to have one of his most productive seasons ever last year, if people were conveniently forgetting that fact.

He had to buy out Carle and he needs to find a way out from under Filppula. A huge problem in Tampa is Coburn a big aging D-man is all of a sudden a tire fire. He has several bad contracts. You just don't have to watch the players every night and concoct more reasons to hate the GM for it. Did Datsyuk not just screw us over too?

Once again, Tampa beat us twice in the playoffs and just went on a Cup run. Yzerman also apparently has the X-Men superpower of actually being able to trade roster players, something that is apparently Holland's kryptonite.

And do we really want to have a "bad contracts" debate about Holland? I promise it won't end well for Kenny.

Which is on to the second point, Datsyuk quitting on his commitment shouldn't be applauded and if that is the reason he should have the courage to admit it, which he didn't do either. This line of thinking is so absurd. The apologies for Datsyuk I will never ever understand, especially with the way this fanbase hunted a guy that left in actual Free Agency.

He did trade down two spots while still drafting Mantha and snagging Bertuzzi.

Saying that it might've been a reason why Datsyuk left is not excusing Datsyuk in the same breath. It's just an angle I find to be very compelling.

I would ****ing hope that an elite wing would land you a decent player and some prospects. You don't have to trade a player just because he asks for it.Whereas Detroit HAD to trade Datsyuk because he was just going to retire. Eventually had Yzerman held strong, Marty would have either gotten back in line because he wouldn't want to give up the huge contract he was making or he'd realize that he might have to lighten up on the whole "only NYR" thing. Hell, look at what Yzerman did with Drouin and Stamkos. Those were exceptional GM moves. Player pouts and tries to force trade? Tell him to pound sand. We will trade if we get value, not before. Player tries negotiating in the press and drumming up a bidding war? You hold to your deal because you know it is a good one. Get the guy for almost 2M lower cap hit than anyone else was gonna.

So Yzerman holds Drouin and Stamkos' feet to the fire and wins out in the end, but doesn't do the same to St. Louis. That tells me one of two things:

1. Yzerman suddenly realized he could actually do that (I highly, highly doubt it)

2. The specifics of the situation were different and Yzerman knew that Marty wasn't going to play ball

And given Marty's utterly petulant behavior toward the end, I know who I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to.

And if you really break down that Datsyuk trade vs the St. Louis trade

7.5M blank roster spot + 16 for 20, a second (forgot the number), and a million dollar cap neutral dump.

Vs

PPG wing + 2nd for 40-50 point winger, 2 1sts (both 28 OA) and a 7th.

It blows my mind that the trade in which an elite ACTIVE player is traded for rich mans Justin Abdelkader and two late firsts is hailed as "holy ****, look how good that GM did" and moving 7.5M of complete nothing to move back four slots and pick up an extra pick is such a stupid move that the GM should be fired because of it.

Never mind the fact that Yzerman himself caused the situation that pissed off his winger to where he "had" to move him.

You, and everyone else apparently, are conveniently leaving out the fact that Yzerman had zero leverage in his deal, whereas Holland was just doing a common-sense swap for both clubs.

And one last point... you could reasonably add Frans Nielsen as a chip the Wings got in the deal because they directly used Datsyuks money to land him in FA. And if you do it that way then... 4 draft slots and an empty roster space with a 7.5M cap hit for Frans Nielsen, a second, and the right to pay Joe Vitale a million dollars cap neutral.

lol oh give me a break

Holland could've been swimming in cap space if actually traded away players in a timely fashion AND didn't sign his bottom-sixers and crappy d-men to ridiculous contracts. Don't use Nielsen - a consolation prize for yet again not being willing to make some sacrifices to get integral long-term pieces - as evidence that Holland knows what he's doing.

 

[Invictus12]

Arizona needed to hit the cap floor. They already had another retired player on their roster eating up a ****-ton of cap space. Meanwhile, Yzerman had absolutely zero leverage with New York. They had no reason whatsoever to give him anything when he had no bargaining power.

And quite frankly, saying "Holland's a genius for getting a lower draft pick" is one of the silliest things I've read in a while.

Arizona could have accomplished that in a number of ways and what leverage did Holland have exactly in getting a second on top of all that???

Just as well, Yzerman could have simply, you know, not trade St Louis and wait for him to blink first. He was under no obligation. At the end of the day, it's just a group of GMs that happened to find suitable situation to work with each other.

Nice spin though. Spin another one for a thousand points.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Arizona could have accomplished that in a number of ways

I'm sorry, were there any other 7.5 mil, 1-year contracts lying around on the floor last summer?

and what leverage did Holland have exactly in getting a second on top of all that???

Yeah. You're right. ****in' killed it with that one.

Just as well, Yzerman could have simply, you know, not trade St Louis and wait for him to blink first. He was under no obligation. At the end of the day, it's just a group of GMs that happened to find suitable situation to work with each other.

Uh, well he's under an obligation to make the best possible moves for his franchise, so there's that.

Nice spin though. Spin another one for a thousand points.

lol

If people keep trying to say that Holland's been a better or as-good GM as Yzerman, I'm gonna keep calling ********. Plain and simple.

For the record, being a good GM means taking risks that sometimes end up not paying off. Holland doesn't know the meaning of the word "risk". If he did, I'd be willing to give him a little more credit.

 

[Invictus12]

I'm sorry, were there any other 7.5 mil, 1-year contracts lying around on the floor last summer?

Yeah. You're right. ****in' killed it with that one.

Uh, well he's under an obligation to make the best possible moves for his franchise, so there's that.

lol

If people keep trying to say that Holland's been a better or as-good GM as Yzerman, I'm gonna keep calling ********. Plain and simple.

For the record, being a good GM means taking risks that sometimes end up not paying off. Holland doesn't know the meaning of the word "risk". If he did, I'd be willing to give him a little more credit.

Well to start, you seem to have or trying to paint this deluded picture that GMs are these cut-throat people. In reality, when it comes to business, successful tend to understand it's about having a working relationship. Not just in business but people with half a brain also tend to understand that there can and most times are, many roads to a solution. I'm sure if Arizona felt like they were being hosed, they could have looked and found a few players that teams would be willing to unload that had high cap low salary (Front loaded contracts) and could have sent out something in return as well. You know, to keep the budget where they wanted or needed to be. That's just one way. More complicated but the answers are always there.

St Louis wanted out, was that not the case? Yzerman could have reasoned with him if the price was off. I understand reason is an alien concept to you but, people do that. Could have asked to give him other options as well, no? If St Louis dug in, so could have Yzerman. Mind you at the time the trade, I felt was tilted towards Tampa so that's moot anyway. It is what it is though. Rangers gave, Yzerman took. What, you think Yzerman had some sort of magic wand or something? He didn't, just as he didn't have a crystal ball.

I don't know if one can definitively say Holland or Yzerman is better. Yzerman is still pretty young in the field and he sat right when the team was getting high picks along with already having an established young core. I'll tell you this though, Holland has been through a somewhat similar scenario himself and he has a cup and finals appearance to show for it. Oh and on his watch, this will be the very first season Detroit misses the playoffs. Until Yzerman hits a time when his best players are starting to retire and he has to transition a team, he can't be really judged against Holland. However, you sure as hell don't get to give Yzerman credit for something he has yet to even face and pass it through my ears.

As far as risks go, well, historically, there are a few, sure. The types you're talking about at least. Not lately of those. On the other hand, signing Nielsen, Glendening, Helm and Abdelkader to long-term deals would seem pretty risky based on your rants alone so, where's the credit. How about it's just a matter of you thinking that being a GM or a coach is just as easy as it is in EA sports.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Well to start, you seem to have or trying to paint this deluded picture that GMs are these cut-throat people.

What? I never implied even the slightest. They're people who have to make tough decisions, sure. Which Ken Holland doesn't do. Ever.

In reality, when it comes to business, successful tend to understand it's about having a working relationship. Not just in business but people with half a brain also tend to understand that there can and most times are, many roads to a solution. I'm sure if Arizona felt like they were being hosed, they could have looked and found a few players that teams would be willing to unload that had high cap low salary (Front loaded contracts) and could have sent out something in return as well. You know, to keep the budget where they wanted or needed to be. That's just one way. More complicated but the answers are always there.

Why would Arizona have thought they were being hosed? I've clearly said it was a common-sense swap for both teams. I'm not going to give Holland credit for doing the stupefyingly obvious.

St Louis wanted out, was that not the case? Yzerman could have reasoned with him if the price was off. I understand reason is an alien concept to you but, people do that. Could have asked to give him other options as well, no? If St Louis dug in, so could have Yzerman. Mind you at the time the trade, I felt was tilted towards Tampa so that's moot anyway. It is what it is though. Rangers gave, Yzerman took. What, you think Yzerman had some sort of magic wand or something? He didn't, just as he didn't have a crystal ball.

How do we even know Yzerman wasn't prepared to dig in? As far as a "working relationship", pretty sure Marty ended the civilities between them, and the point is that whatever actually happened behind the scenes, Yzerman got a remarkable return for someone who was in an extremely compromised position.

Ken Holland does not have wizardry like that under his belt. Instead, he has his loyalty BS.

I don't know if one can definitively say Holland or Yzerman is better. Yzerman is still pretty young in the field and he sat right when the team was getting high picks along with already having an established young core. I'll tell you this though, Holland has been through a somewhat similar scenario himself and he has a cup and finals appearance to show for it. Oh and on his watch, this will be the very first season Detroit misses the playoffs. Until Yzerman hits a time when his best players are starting to retire and he has to transition a team, he can't be really judged against Holland. However, you sure as hell don't get to give Yzerman credit for something he has yet to even face and pass it through my ears.

Holland's post-lockout Cup and Finals appearance were on the backs of pre-cap players, two of which were complete miracle draft snipes. If Hakan Andersson was not around, what do you think this team would look like right now? You think Detroit even sniffs the finals if they pull Andrew Troschinsky instead of Pavel Datsyuk, or Layne Ulmer instead of Henrik Zetterberg?

Let's not forget that Detroit has the highest payroll in the league this year aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're second-last in the conference.

As far as risks go, well, historically, there are a few, sure. The types you're talking about at least. Not lately of those. On the other hand, signing Nielsen, Glendening, Helm and Abdelkader to long-term deals would seem pretty risky based on your rants alone so, where's the credit. How about it's just a matter of you thinking that being a GM or a coach is just as easy as it is in EA sports.

Risk involves sacrifice, not being a dumbass and not knowing what you're doing. The Helm and Abdelkader contracts were ridiculous (and I love Helm), and before that the Quincey, Ericsson, and Franzen contracts were ridiculous, to name a few.

Ken Holland is a either bad cap-era GM full stop, or he has been intentionally milking the living **** out of the streak for financial/marketing purposes (and screwing our team's development), in which case we'll see what happens after he gets what he wrought and the Wings end up 10 points out of the playoffs.

 

[njx9]

re: Brendan Smith - I'm extremely pleased to hear that it sounds like I was completely wrong about his perceived value around the league. I really hope we're able to get a 3rd-ish for him (and that we don't do something as braindead as extend him).

What I will say is that I'm fine with giving Vanek 3 years after he's traded elsewhere for picks, but there just doesn't seem any merit in not getting something for a him. Hell, I'm fine with a gentleman's agreement on that basis made in advance, but surely they have to trade him. And Smith. And Ott (if any takers).

Why? What does a 36/37 year old with notorious work ethic issues add to a team that already has a fair amount of signed 'veteran leadership'? Maybe we can give Iginla a 4 year deal this year, too.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

What? I never implied even the slightest. They're people who have to make tough decisions, sure. Which Ken Holland doesn't do. Ever.



Why would Arizona have thought they were being hosed? I've clearly said it was a common-sense swap for both teams. I'm not going to give Holland credit for doing the stupefyingly obvious.



How do we even know Yzerman wasn't prepared to dig in? As far as a "working relationship", pretty sure Marty ended the civilities between them, and the point is that whatever actually happened behind the scenes, Yzerman got a remarkable return for someone who was in an extremely compromised position.

Ken Holland does not have wizardry like that under his belt. Instead, he has his loyalty BS.



Holland's post-lockout Cup and Finals appearance were on the backs of pre-cap players, two of which were complete miracle draft snipes. If Hakan Andersson was not around, what do you think this team would look like right now? You think Detroit even sniffs the finals if they pull Andrew Troschinsky instead of Pavel Datsyuk, or Layne Ulmer instead of Henrik Zetterberg?

Let's not forget that Detroit has the highest payroll in the league this year aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're second-last in the conference.



Risk involves sacrifice, not being a dumbass and not knowing what you're doing. The Helm and Abdelkader contracts were ridiculous (and I love Helm), and before that the Quincey, Ericsson, and Franzen contracts were ridiculous, to name a few.

Ken Holland is a either bad cap-era GM full stop, or he has been intentionally milking the living **** out of the streak for financial/marketing purposes (and screwing our team's development), in which case we'll see what happens after he gets what he wrought and the Wings end up 10 points out of the playoffs.

I love that "pissing off your PPG and former MVP winger to where he wants out of town" and then salvaging ok value for him is wizardry... and trading away the husk of cap space left by your franchise C who is going to retire no matter what you do is blindly stumbling around and any idiot could do it.

Arizona could and should have had leverage out the rear on that. Sure, they didn't care about Datsyuk's 7.5M... but Detroit sure did. Arizona just hopped on the chance to get Chychrun because he was there.

 

[Frk It]

Arizona could and should have had leverage out the rear on that. Sure, they didn't care about Datsyuk's 7.5M... but Detroit sure did. Arizona just hopped on the chance to get Chychrun because he was there.

Let's add some context to that, though. Chayka said he very nearly took Chychrun at #7. So with him still being there at 16, they felt like they were essentially getting two top 10 picks. I don't think they accept that trade so willingly if he is not left.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I love that "pissing off your PPG and former MVP winger to where he wants out of town" and then salvaging ok value for him is wizardry... and trading away the husk of cap space left by your franchise C who is going to retire no matter what you do is blindly stumbling around and any idiot could do it.

Arizona could and should have had leverage out the rear on that. Sure, they didn't care about Datsyuk's 7.5M... but Detroit sure did. Arizona just hopped on the chance to get Chychrun because he was there.

It's pretty well established that St. Louis was bent out of shape by Yzerman not overruling the management group and selecting him for the Olympic team. Yzerman was in a tough spot but did what he thought was best for the team. St. Louis acted pretty unprofessionally about the whole thing. Yzerman got good value considering he could only deal with one team.

In a vacuum holland made a pretty great deal to offload Datsyuks cap hit. I think the main question at the time was why bother? It was pretty obvious the Wings were going to be bad this season. The good news is that he used some of that cap room to acquire players he can now trade for assets. But also used it to re-sign Helm to a head-scratching contract.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Marty wanted out of Tampa. Correct?
His reasoning is that Yzerman snubbed him off Team Canada.

If Marty doesn't get snubbed the way he did, he doesn't get pissed and cut all civilities and say "get me out of here, but only to NYR".

I'm not understanding your Ice Cube confused face. Yzerman made a mistake in communicating with his star. If he smooths it over with MSL directly after the selection, they don't have to dump a PPG winger for whatever they can get from NYR. Yzerman shouldn't get a ridiculous amount of credit for his "wizardry" when it was required because of his own ****-up before hand.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Marty wanted out of Tampa. Correct?
His reasoning is that Yzerman snubbed him off Team Canada.

If Marty doesn't get snubbed the way he did, he doesn't get pissed and cut all civilities and say "get me out of here, but only to NYR".

I'm not understanding your Ice Cube confused face. Yzerman made a mistake in communicating with his star. If he smooths it over with MSL directly after the selection, they don't have to dump a PPG winger for whatever they can get from NYR. Yzerman shouldn't get a ridiculous amount of credit for his "wizardry" when it was required because of his own ****-up before hand.

Yzerman didn't snub St. Louis. He just didn't overrule Team Canada's management group to add his own player.

And you have no idea what conversations he did or didn't have with St. Louis.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Let's add some context to that, though. Chayka said he very nearly took Chychrun at #7. So with him still being there at 16, they felt like they were essentially getting two top 10 picks. I don't think they accept that trade so willingly if he is not left.

That's a good point and explains Arizona's thinking about it... but still, they had or should have had all the leverage because Detroit wanted out from Datsyuk's money bad.

It was a commonsense trade on the surface of it... but with all the smoke around moving the contract before the draft being "You're gonna have to move AA or Mantha to do it", to see it gone for a swap of firsts and pick up a 2nd in the offing seems like a huge coup.

 

[Frk It]

That's a good point and explains Arizona's thinking about it... but still, they had or should have had all the leverage because Detroit wanted out from Datsyuk's money bad.

It was a commonsense trade on the surface of it... but with all the smoke around moving the contract before the draft being "You're gonna have to move AA or Mantha to do it", to see it gone for a swap of firsts and pick up a 2nd in the offing seems like a huge coup.

I see where you are coming from. Honestly I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall to hear that negotiation between those two. I took it as an indication of how bad they wanted the kid, and I mean they have all the cap space in the world, but yeah maybe they should have played some better hardball there.

I mean the biggest thing was Arizona lost out on their 2nd round pick to us. But they flipped their other 2nd for DeAngelo, who I think is worth much more than a 2nd rounder. Also they had two first's and two second's going into this last draft. So big picture wise, with everything they moved around and we moved around, might have worked out for both sides.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Here's the Kenny we all know and loathe:

McKenzie: Before #RedWings potentially trade Brendan Smith, they're going to talk to his reps this week about cost of poss. extension. 2/2

More, from Spector today (emphasis is mine):


Bob McKenzie reports the Detroit Red Wings are getting lots of calls on defenseman Brendan Smith, who has a $2.75 million cap hit on an expiring contract. The Wings will talk to Smith about a contract extension. They’re also getting calls on forwards Thomas Vanek and Steve Ott.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

More, from Spector today (emphasis is mine):


Bob McKenzie reports the Detroit Red Wings are getting lots of calls on defenseman Brendan Smith, who has a $2.75 million cap hit on an expiring contract. The Wings will talk to Smith about a contract extension. They’re also getting calls on forwards Thomas Vanek and Steve Ott.

They must want to see if they can bring him back for less than 2.75M.

 

[Heaton]

They must want to see if they can bring him back for less than 2.75M.

I really think we need to prepare ourselves for Holland re-signing Smith at 4-5 years for 3.75-4m/yr, which would essentially lock him into our top 4 for the foreseeable future. Holland hates losing homegrown players, he'd rather overpay to keep them than upgrade with someone who wasn't drafted or developed in Detroit.

 

[jkutswings]

I really think we need to prepare ourselves for Holland re-signing Smith at 4-5 years for 3.75-4m/yr, which would essentially lock him into our top 4 for the foreseeable future. Holland hates losing homegrown players, he'd rather overpay to keep them than upgrade with someone who wasn't drafted or developed in Detroit.

IF - and that's a giant IF - something along those lines happens...

...It's officially time to take the car keys away from Grandpa.

I sincerely hope that this is all just gauging value, to get the best reasonable return on dealing Smith at the deadline. If so, then kudos.

But if Brendan gets a new deal in Detroit...

 

[njx9]

I hope this is just some weird ploy to up his value. There's absolutely no excuse for resigning Smith.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I really think we need to prepare ourselves for Holland re-signing Smith at 4-5 years for 3.75-4m/yr, which would essentially lock him into our top 4 for the foreseeable future. Holland hates losing homegrown players, he'd rather overpay to keep them than upgrade with someone who wasn't drafted or developed in Detroit.

If that happens, I'll change sides. I'll agree that Holland needs to get gone. They don't even like Smith. At least Abby and Helm, they've been trying to run them up the lineup. Smith they've been trying to bury, seemingly. Want to keep him at $2M AAV? I'm fine by that. If he gets a 1M+ raise... it will be the most inexplicable, indefensible thing that Holland has done. Because, hell, even the Quincey raise that one offseason could be "justified" by saying they needed a D man and they struck out on all their preferred targets. This one... they've got bottom pairing D galore that have been playing more minutes than Smith.

Hell, even the ridiculous Helm contract, you could stretch it and say AA is too raw defensively for him to be the 1 to 1 replacement for Helm. Smith provides nothing that a guy like Sproul doesn't also provide. If you want to keep him on similar or less money, whatever. It will be an embarrassing deal if they give him 4M.

The only possible way that he gets $4M and I don't hate it with the fire of a thousand suns is if Kronwall and/or Ericsson have come out and said they're done and retiring at the end of the year.