Ansar Khan: I reckon this is the plan...

[Frk It]

No it wasn't. It allowed Ken Holland to sign players who are fun for fans to watch. Just because you and a few random folks refuse to enjoy it doesn't mean the majority of us can't enjoy it.

Chychrun is nothing special. I think he tops out as a bottom 4. Wings have those type of players coming out of their ears.

We had this debate before, unless a dman is a top quality elite star in the draft, they are all crap shoots. You're best chance is 'education guess' along with luck and drafting quantity. You're more likely to land a better dman if you draft two instead of one. It increases your chances.

I'm not high on Chychrun and neither are the 16 teams who passed on him. Coyotes, a team known to suck at drafting, picked him. That should be your first clear indicator what's going on.

The other player they picked in that draft (Clayton Keller) is one of the best prospects in hockey... but OK.

Chayka had made several smart moves in his short time there. But I really don't feel like going down this rabbit hole.

 

[Dotter]

The other player they picked in that draft (Clayton Keller) is one of the best prospects in hockey... but OK.

Chayka had made several smart moves in his short time there. But I really don't feel like going down this rabbit hole.

That's cool. I like Matthews and Laine better. To each of their own.

 

[Frk It]

That's cool. I like Matthews and Laine better. To each of their own.

I said one of... and those players are in the NHL already.

Edit: Button stole my thunder >> http://www.tsn.ca/talent/who-are-the-best-players-not-skating-in-the-nhl-1.677389

 

[jkutswings]

The other player they picked in that draft (Clayton Keller) is one of the best prospects in hockey... but OK.

Chayka had made several smart moves in his short time there. But I really don't feel like going down this rabbit hole.

Indeed. A laundry list of opinion and TBD, presented as fact.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The other player they picked in that draft (Clayton Keller) is one of the best prospects in hockey... but OK.

Chayka had made several smart moves in his short time there. But I really don't feel like going down this rabbit hole.

Chayka has made several very good moves. He also started from a way way crappier position so they're not as obvious.

But I don't care what the Wings ended up using the cap space on and your feelings on it. On the face of it, unless you think that Chychrun is a lock to be a Norris winning D that the Wings punted on, that was a fantastic trade.

They moved 7.5M in cap to move down four slots and add a second (became Hronek).

To move 4M, the Blackhawks traded Teuvo Teraveinen and got a second and third.

I don't even hate the Nielsen signing. I think he's a pretty good player and when/if the Wings land a top 3 pick and get a Nolan Patrick or Nico Hischier who turn into a 1C, you'll really see the value of a nice 2C in Nielsen who's good shorthanded.

 

[Frk It]

Chayka has made several very good moves. He also started from a way way crappier position so they're not as obvious.

But I don't care what the Wings ended up using the cap space on and your feelings on it. On the face of it, unless you think that Chychrun is a lock to be a Norris winning D that the Wings punted on, that was a fantastic trade.

They moved 7.5M in cap to move down four slots and add a second (became Hronek).

To move 4M, the Blackhawks traded Teuvo Teraveinen and got a second and third.

I don't even hate the Nielsen signing. I think he's a pretty good player and when/if the Wings land a top 3 pick and get a Nolan Patrick or Nico Hischier who turn into a 1C, you'll really see the value of a nice 2C in Nielsen who's good shorthanded.

Why are you quoting my post and addressing a bunch of things I didn't say anything about? Just curious.

 

[Retire91]

Chychrun is and was the better prospect time will tell how that pans out. The larger issue was clearing cap space for a stop gap option in replacing Daytsuk just like Holland replaced Lidstrom with Quincey and called it a day Neilsen was a far stretch to replace daytsuk's minutes. Neilsen is 30+ and now locked into 6 years top 6 forward money. All the while we could be eating Daytsuk's 7 million, have a better defensive prospect, and not be locked into 6 years of mediocrity in our top 6. As the "rebuilding" team everyone seems to keep saying we are now option 2 seems like the way a "rebuilding" team would have went IMO. Hronek cold balance things out we'll see sometimes there is a silver lining. Its a lot of gambling and Holland pulls some good players here and there but our prosepct pool is not leaps and bounds ahead of any other team in the NHL and that is pretty concerning when a team has zero elite talent and one of its best players is on the edge of retirement age. At the moment give me Chychrun > Neilsen, Cholo, Hornek.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Why are you quoting my post and addressing a bunch of things I didn't say anything about? Just curious.

Answer 1: Laziness, really. Yours was the first one on the page.

Answer 2: You were talking about Chayka and how he's been doing a pretty good job. I started out by agreeing that he's been pretty good and I kinda digressed from there.

But it was mostly the laziness thing.

 

[Frk It]

Answer 1: Laziness, really. Yours was the first one on the page.

Answer 2: You were talking about Chayka and how he's been doing a pretty good job. I started out by agreeing that he's been pretty good and I kinda digressed from there.

But it was mostly the laziness thing.

lol ok, that's ok then.

I honestly tried to avoid digging deeper on that, that was the only reason I even said anything.

I'd rather try and focus on *now*, ya know what I mean?

 

[jkutswings]

That's cool. I like Matthews and Laine better. To each of their own.

So you don't want Detroit to trade away players and go after top picks, but you prefer the #1 and #2 players selected in the 2016 draft to the guy taken at #7?

Pick your poison.

 

[Retire91]

Wanna know what's scary?

ESPN article with several quotes from Vanek's agent suggests the Wings are waiting till after the expansion draft to extend Vanek, and any deal will end up including a NMC.

Both Vanek and Holland want to put together a contract that keeps him in Detroit.

I'd link it, but it's behind a pay wall.

Buckle up boys, the incompetent GM is about to go to work and lock up another 30+ vet on a dead roster.

It would be madness to leave a team that hands out franchise contracts to aging mediocre players.

 

[Dotter]

So you don't want Detroit to trade away players and go after top picks, but you prefer the #1 and #2 players selected in the 2016 draft to the guy taken at #7?

Pick your poison.

If I did, I wouldn't want it to start in a weak draft. Calculate it for a deep draft. If you miss out on McDavid, Eichel is your consolation prize. And if you're drafting 5-10, you can have a Werenski.

This upcoming draft there will be no players on that level, especially after top 3.

 

[njx9]

If Holland extends Vanek (with a NMC to boot), this team won't sniff the 2nd round for another decade. At least they'll hover around the 15th worst team in the league for a while longer though. That's certainly exciting/something to be proud of.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Assembled cup-winning team? Because Yzerman hasn't done anything that even remotely compares to it.

Are we really going to do this?

Mike Illitch: "Ken, it's the non-cap era. Here's a gazillion dollars."

Ken Holland: "Okay boss!"

Mike Illitch: "Hakan, please buffer this guy."

Hakan Andersson: "Got it."

And what did he do in the Marty St. Louis trade? He got Ryan Callahan and what amounts to four "eh" prospects. Marty was far and away the best player in that deal. Seriously, it was a good trade and maybe edges towards great because Marty said "only NYR", but they traded an MVP level wing for a rich man's Justin Abdelkader and a couple picks.

Would you think that Pittsburgh did awesome if they dealt Phil Kessel to Detroit for Justin Abdelkader, a first, a conditional second to turn into a first and a 7th?

Yeah that's kind of the point. Marty absolutely ****ed the Lightning and Yzerman still wizarded a decent player and some prospects out of it.

Holland just traded a player that was set to retire + a mid 1st to rid his cap burden for a few picks later and a 2nd rounder. They drafted the two defensemen they wanted who both very much could turn into studs. Both could very well likely be better than the pick they gave up in the Datsyuk trade. And I think they will be.

They got rid of Datsyuk's contract, and added two players they specifically wanted - one of those picks were FREE. It's actually genius. I feel like Ken Holland out Wile e'd the Coyotes

How is that genius? It was the obvious choice. And it's arguable that part of the reason Datsyuk left was because he was constantly getting paired with Holland's plugs.

Next you're going to tell me Holland is a genius for drafting Mantha.

 

[jkutswings]

If I did, I wouldn't want it to start in a weak draft. Calculate it for a deep draft. If you miss out on McDavid, Eichel is your consolation prize. And if you're drafting 5-10, you can have a Werenski.

This upcoming draft there will be no players on that level, especially after top 3.

'Tanking is dishonorable and should be avoided at all costs.'

Rebuttal: "I'm not talking about losing on purpose. I'm talking about trading away UFAs for picks, and letting some kids play. Maybe add a meaningful trade in there somewhere."



'But I meant that tanking is when you try for high draft picks on purpose.'

Rebuttal: "Again, not in the sense of throwing games, but those high draft picks are statistically the most likely source of the high-end talent this team desperately needs."



'Yeah, I really like the players taken at the top of the draft.'

Rebuttal: "But you just said you didn't want to go after high draft picks!"



'Well...not in a weak draft like this one. Maybe in 2018.'



Whew! Those goalposts sure are getting a workout...

 

[Invictus12]

Are we really going to do this?

Mike Illitch: "Ken, it's the non-cap era. Here's a gazillion dollars."

Ken Holland: "Okay boss!"

Mike Illitch: "Hakan, please buffer this guy."

Hakan Andersson: "Got it."



Yeah that's kind of the point. Marty absolutely ****ed the Lightning and Yzerman still wizarded a decent player and some prospects out of it.



How is that genius? It was the obvious choice. And it's arguable that part of the reason Datsyuk left was because he was constantly getting paired with Holland's plugs.

Next you're going to tell me Holland is a genius for drafting Mantha.

So let me get this straight. St Louis screws the lightning and Yzerman gets credit for the the return he's got. In the same freaking breath, Holland gets criticized when he got screwed by Datsyuk and possibly even received a better return....

Sure you're thinking rationally?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah that's kind of the point. Marty absolutely ****ed the Lightning and Yzerman still wizarded a decent player and some prospects out of it.



How is that genius? It was the obvious choice. And it's arguable that part of the reason Datsyuk left was because he was constantly getting paired with Holland's plugs.

Next you're going to tell me Holland is a genius for drafting Mantha.

On the flip side was trading MSL for a guy that New York wouldn't sign to a contract extension themselves and was their dump not obvious as well.... You guys would be crushing Holland all day long if he then extended him, try doing the same to Yzerman and it will make more sense. He had to buy out Carle and he needs to find a way out from under Filppula. A huge problem in Tampa is Coburn a big aging D-man is all of a sudden a tire fire. He has several bad contracts. You just don't have to watch the players every night and concoct more reasons to hate the GM for it. Did Datsyuk not just screw us over too?

Which is on to the second point, Datsyuk quitting on his commitment shouldn't be applauded and if that is the reason he should have the courage to admit it, which he didn't do either. This line of thinking is so absurd. The apologies for Datsyuk I will never ever understand, especially with the way this fanbase hunted a guy that left in actual Free Agency.

He did trade down two spots while still drafting Mantha and snagging Bertuzzi.

 

[Red Stanley]

'Tanking is dishonorable and should be avoided at all costs.'

Rebuttal: "I'm not talking about losing on purpose. I'm talking about trading away UFAs for picks, and letting some kids play. Maybe add a meaningful trade in there somewhere."



'But I meant that tanking is when you try for high draft picks on purpose.'

Rebuttal: "Again, not in the sense of throwing games, but those high draft picks are statistically the most likely source of the high-end talent this team desperately needs."



'Yeah, I really like the players taken at the top of the draft.'

Rebuttal: "But you just said you didn't want to go after high draft picks!"



'Well...not in a weak draft like this one. Maybe in 2018.'



Whew! Those goalposts sure are getting a workout...

You can plan on trading some UFA's and playing more kids during a strong draft year. Take the riskier route when the return is potentially better. He also did preface his entire post with an "if I did".

 

[Dotter]

'Tanking is dishonorable and should be avoided at all costs.'

Rebuttal: "I'm not talking about losing on purpose. I'm talking about trading away UFAs for picks, and letting some kids play. Maybe add a meaningful trade in there somewhere."



'But I meant that tanking is when you try for high draft picks on purpose.'

Rebuttal: "Again, not in the sense of throwing games, but those high draft picks are statistically the most likely source of the high-end talent this team desperately needs."



'Yeah, I really like the players taken at the top of the draft.'

Rebuttal: "But you just said you didn't want to go after high draft picks!"



'Well...not in a weak draft like this one. Maybe in 2018.'



Whew! Those goalposts sure are getting a workout...

I said *if I did*. If I had the choice of 1st overall Nail Yakupov, or 17th pick Tomas Hertl or 18th pick Teuvo Teravainen... I'm picking the latter two. Easily. Without having to tank.

I have a feeling the 2017 draft is going to have a lot in common with the 2012 draft.

 

[lomekian]

I'm beginning to wonder if Dotter is a double agent...multiple threads where some of the more reasonable cheerful ones manage to enter into a dialogue with the pitchfork and torches crew, and we slowly settle into a reasoned discussion...and then Dotter comes in singing the 'everything is wonderful' song and suddenly the angry mob are up in arms again and all reasoned conversation dies, and we're back to the insane theories that imply that the GM just happened to be in the building during the cup wins without contributing, and arguing about trades and contracts from 5 years ago.

What I will say is that I'm fine with giving Vanek 3 years after he's traded elsewhere for picks, but there just doesn't seem any merit in not getting something for a him. Hell, I'm fine with a gentleman's agreement on that basis made in advance, but surely they have to trade him. And Smith. And Ott (if any takers).

Its fine letting UFAs play out their contracts if you have a top 10 team or there abouts, but doing it with a bottom 10 team seems, how can I say, insane...

 

[SirloinUB]

Not sure if this was posted else where but according to McKenzie there is a ton of interest in Smith.




https://twitter.com/nicholsonhockey/status/834186537512284163

 

[Frk It]

Not sure if this was posted else where but according to McKenzie there is a ton of interest in Smith.




https://twitter.com/nicholsonhockey/status/834186537512284163

Damn. Smith for a 3rd, and Vanek for a 2nd seems pretty doable, no?

5 picks in the first 3 rounds would be pretty awesome.. that's almost like what re-building teams do!

 

[lidstromiscool]

Damn. Smith for a 3rd, and Vanek for a 2nd seems pretty doable, no?

5 picks in the first 3 rounds would be pretty awesome.. that's almost like what re-building teams do!

I'd say thats the lowest possible return for those two. Vanek is looking like a 1st should be doable, or at least 2nd +3rd. Smith I could see going for a 2nd. Good D are hard to come by and he's been good(for his standards) the last month or so. Would almost be happier with 2018 picks as well if this draft is as weak as people say.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Are we really going to do this?

Mike Illitch: "Ken, it's the non-cap era. Here's a gazillion dollars."

Ken Holland: "Okay boss!"

Mike Illitch: "Hakan, please buffer this guy."

Hakan Andersson: "Got it."



Yeah that's kind of the point. Marty absolutely ****ed the Lightning and Yzerman still wizarded a decent player and some prospects out of it.



How is that genius? It was the obvious choice. And it's arguable that part of the reason Datsyuk left was because he was constantly getting paired with Holland's plugs.

Next you're going to tell me Holland is a genius for drafting Mantha.

I would ****ing hope that an elite wing would land you a decent player and some prospects. You don't have to trade a player just because he asks for it. Whereas Detroit HAD to trade Datsyuk because he was just going to retire. Eventually had Yzerman held strong, Marty would have either gotten back in line because he wouldn't want to give up the huge contract he was making or he'd realize that he might have to lighten up on the whole "only NYR" thing. Hell, look at what Yzerman did with Drouin and Stamkos. Those were exceptional GM moves. Player pouts and tries to force trade? Tell him to pound sand. We will trade if we get value, not before. Player tries negotiating in the press and drumming up a bidding war? You hold to your deal because you know it is a good one. Get the guy for almost 2M lower cap hit than anyone else was gonna.

And if you really break down that Datsyuk trade vs the St. Louis trade

7.5M blank roster spot + 16 for 20, a second (forgot the number), and a million dollar cap neutral dump.

Vs

PPG wing + 2nd for 40-50 point winger, 2 1sts (both 28 OA) and a 7th.

It blows my mind that the trade in which an elite ACTIVE player is traded for rich mans Justin Abdelkader and two late firsts is hailed as "holy ****, look how good that GM did" and moving 7.5M of complete nothing to move back four slots and pick up an extra pick is such a stupid move that the GM should be fired because of it.

Never mind the fact that Yzerman himself caused the situation that pissed off his winger to where he "had" to move him.

And one last point... you could reasonably add Frans Nielsen as a chip the Wings got in the deal because they directly used Datsyuks money to land him in FA. And if you do it that way then... 4 draft slots and an empty roster space with a 7.5M cap hit for Frans Nielsen, a second, and the right to pay Joe Vitale a million dollars cap neutral.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And you know, it's also possible that Datsyuk was 37 years old and skating on cadaver ankles on a team that as a whole was approaching the downslide. Not only because he was given crap to work with (he was, but who on the Wings could you put with him?). But because the team as a whole had the upside of maybe making the second round?

Early 30s Datsyuk doesn't retire out of that deal. Broken ass Datsyuk who'd been missing 20-30 games a year for two or three years already and had a gruesome ****ing surgery just the offseason prior? I can see it.