Post-Game Talk: I did, however, start Henrik Lundqvist (afternoon games suck)

[rx7dryver]

To me part of the reason for that is Monster is better at playing the puck than Howard. When you have a good puck handling goalie it leads to better/easier breakouts and less time hemmed in your own zone. I can't even begin to count how many times Howard has made a bad read when playing the puck which lead to a great scoring chance for the other team.

I feel this is the reason as well. I actually typed up a very long post a few weeks ago addressing this and my browser locked up and I had to restart it and did not have enough ambition to redo it.

 

[Flowah]

Howard is atrocious at playing the puck. I honestly don't understand how an NHL-level goaltender can be so bad at it. Isn't this something you can work on and improve? No one is asking him to be Brodeur but my god is he far from that. I just don't get it. To me, its the equivalent of a center being atrocious at faceoffs and not ever improving.

Our goalies have been terrible since Osgood in 08. None of them are good at playing the puck. And honestly, anyone who claims Gustavsson is good at it is just wrong. Terribly, incredibly, wrong.

 

[rx7dryver]

How many breakouts is a goalie really involved in anyway? Maybe 5%? Usually it's the defensemen who start the breakout. When goalies play the puck they just leave it behind the net for the D most of the time.

Howard routinely either leaves the puck behind the net allowing the opposition to forecheck the d when they go back there to get it. He also likes to make passes to players that are left with no time or space which causes a turnover or simply dumping the puck out instead of letting the d make a good first pass.

Monster and even Mrazek are better at distributing the puck.
Howard's strengths are tracking the puck in traffic and making himself big on shots. He is really bad at handling the puck and lacks the confidence to handle it sometimes where he should be able to help his guys out.

 

[detredWINgs]

I actually had them added up just before the Olympics, but the scratch pad I wrote it all out on is at work. Needless to say, we were very bad. I think 28th in goals by D men and like 24th in pts by D men.

EDIT - Scratch that, I actually have the worksheet here... I was right, we were 28th in goals for by D-Men with 16 (Montreal had 15 and the Isles had 14) and were 24th in pts per player by a D-Man with 8.8. The only teams worse were Buffalo (6.2), Dallas (7.9), Edmonton (5.5), Florida (7.6), Isles (8.3), and the Rangers (8.4).

But don't forget, these were stats from like 4 weeks ago. I might do another go at it now to see if we've improved at all.

I just did it in terms of points scored by defenseman. We rank 21st. The average is 119 points whereas we have 108. The top 5 teams have ~140+ points from defense.

The scary thing is, if you take out every team's top defensive scorer, the Wings are 27th in the league in defense scoring. In other words, our scoring depth on the back-end is bottom-feeder territory.

 

[rx7dryver]

Our goalies have been terrible since Osgood in 08. None of them are good at playing the puck. And honestly, anyone who claims Gustavsson is good at it is just wrong. Terribly, incredibly, wrong.

I would never call his puck handling good bit it is much much better than Howard's.

 

[BinCookin]

I wanted to see how much goal support Howard and Gus get when they start, so I did a little math...

Detroit has scored 90 goals when Howard has started a game and he's started 38.

Detroit has scored 76 goals when Gus has started and he's started 22 games.

That means the Wings score 2.37 goals a game when Howard starts and a WHOPPING 3.45 goals a game when Gus starts. No wonder Gus has a better record. That is crazy.

Honestly THAT IS CRAZY!.

I mean even with "howards poor stick handling".

I don't think Any goalie can result in more goals scored by 1 goal per game.

Its very very strange.

 

[waltdetroit]

So the BJ's are the wildcard and we are not

 

[TatarTangle]

Oh geez, here we go.

dead serious

Sure it's easy to say Lundquist doesn't make that save but in reality we don't really know that. You act like Lundquist has never stopped a deflected shot before.

And you act like stopping a deflected shot that paints the top ****ing corner is something every goalie in the NHL should stop. Goalies maybe make that save 1 time out of 100 when it's perfectly deflected like that. What the **** do I know though? I've only been in the crease against NHL players doing it. But you might know something about stopping a puck that is travelling at 90+ MPH and is deflected at the last moment better than myself.

Truthfully Lundquist probably would have stopped it because he would have seen the shot from the point and played it aggressively by coming out further to cut the angle on any deflection. Howie was just sitting back deep in his crease waiting for the puck to come to him instead of playing the situation proactively.

Ericsson and Kreider were on top of Howard, there was absolutely no way Howard could have came out and challenged. If you notice, NHL forwards are very effective at sitting on top of the crease to not allow a goalie to come out and challenge.

Even keeping it at 2-0 would have still given us a chance. That 3rd goal took all the life out of the team...at least whatever life was left...what's the excuse for the 3rd goal?

You should have realized that when the third goal happened, 8 minutes left in the game, there was no way the Red Wings were going to come back and score two goals to tie it up.

There is no excuse, really. If you were to use one you could say Ericsson didn't play the pass and take it away. But Howard looked really slow getting across to the shooter.

No team is ever going to play a perfect game. There will be turnovers and defensive breakdowns...it's the goalies job to bail his fellow teammates out. Howard doesn't do that....ever

Really? Because I saw Kronwall make two passes across the middle, in his own zone, that resulted in a turnover and a prime scoring chance for New York and Howard shut the door.

And for those who are trying to say Monster is a better goalie because he's better at playing the puck is . Monster ain't much better at it. I'd rather Howard and Monster stay in the net at all times. Mrazek is light-years better than Howard and Monster at playing the puck.

If you/people want to rip on Howard that's fine, but as I said trying to put blame on him today is just flat-out uninformed and unwarranted. Save it for a game that it's actually deserved.

 

[mindfly]

When are they getting bodies back?????????

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Our goalies have been terrible since Osgood in 08. None of them are good at playing the puck. And honestly, anyone who claims Gustavsson is good at it is just wrong. Terribly, incredibly, wrong.

Before 08. Hasek was an absolute adventure when he went to play the puck. Used to scare the you know what out of me every single time he left his crease.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

When are they getting bodies back?????????

3 weeks? Who knows at this point. Only Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Helm will make a difference.

Helm is out at least a week from his last game for concussion protocol. After that it's anyone's guess as to when he's ready to go.

Datsyuk sidelined for 3 weeks, but that doesn't mean he's coming back right away.

And Z could be ready for round 1, although round 2 seems more realistic according to some reports.

 

[RedWingzz]

Brutal effort all around. I'm not at all surprised though with the lineup we are playing, were gonna lose more than win. If Franzen and Nyquist don't get 3 points each, this team is done for.

Why is Luke Glendening getting 16 minutes of ice time? He has never scored a goal in this league, in 38 games...Makes no sense. Oh well, when we shut down Datsyuk for 3 weeks that was pretty much the season, so whatever.

 

[Frk It]

I've been very disappointed with Howard's season.

But the whole team was garbage tonight. No reason to just make this a goalie discussion.

Good thing we got Legwand though... So we could go from being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in... to being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in.

 

[RedWingzz]

When are they getting bodies back?????????

October

Although Datsyuk will probably jump all over the opportunity to play for Russia at the World Championships. He's prolly resting up right now for that.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Lol at this board when losses occur vs when wins occur. Jump off bridge... Climb back on... Jump off... Back on... Repeat.

 

[detredWINgs]

Good thing we got Legwand though... So we could go from being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in... to being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in.

Preach, brother.

 

[detredWINgs]

Lol at this board when losses occur vs when wins occur. Jump off bridge... Climb back on... Jump off... Back on... Repeat.

You act as though that hasn't been precisely how the Wings have been playing this year. Win a game or two...lose a game or two...score 7 goals....get shut out...Repeat.

 

[RedWingzz]

Lol at this board when losses occur vs when wins occur. Jump off bridge... Climb back on... Jump off... Back on... Repeat.

They have dropped 3 of the past 4 games, in a playoff race where our competition are all heating up. You can't afford to lose 3 of 4 in a playoff race and expect good things. When Dats and Z don't play what are we? 2-8-1?

 

[Kronwalled55]

Good thing we got Legwand though... So we could go from being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in... to being a bubble team that would get bounced in the 1st round if we get in.

Preach, brother.

...And Legwand has been one of the best players on the team since he's arrived here.

 

[detredWINgs]

Anyone remember a few years ago when we were pitching a streak of 200 or 300 games without being shut out? We've been shut out 9 times this season alone.

 

[Flowah]

I don't think Any goalie can result in more goals scored by 1 goal per game.

There is not a goalie on the planet who can do that. Not even Marty could do that. But if people are suggesting Jonas "Mediocre-at-best-puckhandling-netminder" Gustavsson is somehow causing his team to score 1+ more goals a game with his all star puck handling skills....

Well, I just want to have what they're having.

 

[NyquistIsMyGod*]

They must be one of the quickest teams in the league. Reminds me a bit of how we used to play.

No kidding. Their breaks are solid, and the areas where you get a shot at Lundqvist. Every game against them has been offensively frustrating. Mad depth too everywhere.

 

[RedWingzz]

Anyone remember a few years ago when we were pitching a streak of 200 or 300 games without being shut out? We've been shut out 9 times this season alone.

Ya well I'm not really surprised when guys with no career goals are getting 16 minutes a game.

 

[Detroit Sports*]

Well maybe we would have come back if Howard found a way to keep it at 1-0...when it gets to 3-0 it kinda sinks the team....Howard almost never finds a way to get it done...stop the puck at all costs...Lundquist routinely makes saves he has no business making....when does Howard ever carry the team on his back? He's sure paid like a guy who should occasionally do so...

Been saying this. He is not worth his contract. Average goalie.

 

[InjuredChoker]

what would NBC game be without edzo noting red wings subtle interference's and picks lol?

To me part of the reason for that is Monster is better at playing the puck than Howard. When you have a good puck handling goalie it leads to better/easier breakouts and less time hemmed in your own zone. I can't even begin to count how many times Howard has made a bad read when playing the puck which lead to a great scoring chance for the other team.

i think there is interesting point but wings don't have a lot more shots/shot attempts with gustavsson or mrazek being the goalie compared to howard. or shots against.

they just score a lot more. way too much more imo, that it could be explained with that.

esp. as he's always been bad at handling the puck. and it's just showing up now, there wasn't problem like this before. why is it showing up just now?

and i looked quickly at good puck moving goalies and differences in shots and goals between their backups. didn't seem to be any correlation. more like the other way around. when backups were playing, their team had more shots and goals.. likely result of playing against weaker team.

dead serious

Sure it's easy to say Lundquist doesn't make that save but in reality we don't really know that. You act like Lundquist has never stopped a deflected shot before. Truthfully Lundquist probably would have stopped it because he would have seen the shot from the point and played it aggressively by coming out further to cut the angle on any deflection. Howie was just sitting back deep in his crease waiting for the puck to come to him instead of playing the situation proactively.

Even keeping it at 2-0 would have still given us a chance. That 3rd goal took all the life out of the team...at least whatever life was left...what's the excuse for the 3rd goal?

No team is ever going to play a perfect game. There will be turnovers and defensive breakdowns...it's the goalies job to bail his fellow teammates out. Howard doesn't do that....ever

lundqvist is very, very passive goalie in that sense. he rarely comes far out of the net.

i do agree that howie hasn't been really good this year. i guess it's regression to mean. he had like top 3 5on5 sv% the previous two season. he's a good goalie but not a great goalie.

though teams seem to do it more and more now, i wonder if it would be just better to draft a little more goalies, and sign cheap(er) alternatives at UFA. like wings could have 4 mil or more in cap space for better player this year if they had done that. and there also seem to be quite a lot of goalies cheap who work damn well... and seeing all goalies being almost consistently good for good teams.. no matter who there is in net, i think the team effects might be quite big. and goalies are weird. widely fluctuating sv% from year to year. one year this goalies is close to being vezina candidate, few years or even year later fans want him to be send to the moon.

i'd pay for elite goalies, for sure. and howie has fair cap hit considering other teams, but i just wonder how stuff like this would work out.

I actually had them added up just before the Olympics, but the scratch pad I wrote it all out on is at work. Needless to say, we were very bad. I think 28th in goals by D men and like 24th in pts by D men.

EDIT - Scratch that, I actually have the worksheet here... I was right, we were 28th in goals for by D-Men with 16 (Montreal had 15 and the Isles had 14) and were 24th in pts per player by a D-Man with 8.8. The only teams worse were Buffalo (6.2), Dallas (7.9), Edmonton (5.5), Florida (7.6), Isles (8.3), and the Rangers (8.4).

But don't forget, these were stats from like 4 weeks ago. I might do another go at it now to see if we've improved at all.

i had wondered about that. i did those on goals a while back but didn't bother to do with points. i think that gives confirmation that wings need good puck mover on D. badly.