but people need to do a better job divorcing that disastrous contract, from what Toews still is as a player.
That would be a good point if it ever happened. He had 66 in 81, 68 in 76 twice, and 69 in 82 but none of those are recent. The last time he had 68 in 76 which is closest to your argument was 5 years ago and at that time I don't think anyone was questioning that he was a top 5ish center. The last 3-4 years even factoring in missed games he's basically pacing for 60 points a year. This year is even less impressive considering the bump in scoring we're seeing league wide. He's been on a steady decline in production since the lockout shortened season.There were multiple seasons where he finished with 68 or 69 (nice) pts while missing a decent chunk of time. Finishing at 68 pts while only playing 70 or so games in a given season should earn the benefit of the doubt that he would get at the very least 2 pts in those 12 games he missed.
Right now he's a lower end 1C. The one thing people don't seem to fully realize is that most 1Cs play with the best wingers on a team. Toews has been playing with Kane for the last two or so weeks and he's producing at a better than PPG rate. Outside of these past few weeks, however, his best winger this season has been Saad who's never gotten to 55pts in a season.
I look at a guy like Bergeron. Now Bergeron is likely a better player right now then Toews. However, PB has Marchand and Pastrnak as his main linemates. Both of those guys are at least at a PPG pace this season and the worst of the two last year, Pastrnak, had 70pts in 75 games. Again, Bergeron is likely a better player than Toews, but it's a fair assumption that Bergeron isn't putting up near as many points if he had the linemates Toews has had for most of this year.
Toews might not be good enough to be the guy on a line for driving offense, but there are so many other 1Cs that are in the same type of boat, having to play with that team's best winger to create a legit 1st line. Keep him with Kane and someone like Saad at LW for a season and his numbers will absolutely jump up to the mid-to-high sixties while still providing good, but not quite Selke level defense.
I think #2C implies there are 31 centers better than him in the game today, which I don't think is true at all.
First I said two separate times in my post that Bergeron was still likely a better player than Toews. However they've been similar players in their careers (former Selke winners who've both had seasons where they couldn't reach 60pts).I remember when it was "elite players produce no matter who they play with" when we had the Bergeron vs Toews threads few years ago.
Barkov has also proven to produce #1C numbers with garbage on his wings. Among wingers for him last year were guys who were a) bought out after season, has changed teams 4 times this year b)had to retire from NHL next season, c) guy who was waived 3x during the season.
Bergeron is clearly better player than Toews.
There aren't 31 #1C's in this league though.
Just look at Montreal, is one of their C's really a #1C?
Replies like this are so dumb.About half his cap hit.
No-one said #1C's are evenly distributed among all 31 teams. Some have multiple, some have none.There aren't 31 #1C's in this league though.
Just look at Montreal, is one of their C's really a #1C?
No-one said #1C's are evenly distributed among all 31 teams. Some have multiple, some have none.
First I said two separate times in my post that Bergeron was still likely a better player than Toews. However they've been similar players in their careers (former Selke winners who've both had seasons where they couldn't reach 60pts).
I also said that most 1Cs play with the best wingers on their team. I know Barkov doesn't. Same with Crosby and McDavid.
I also never said in my post that Toews is an elite player anymore. In fact, I said he's currently a lower 1C.
You've literally tried to pick holes in three different things I said without apparently bothering to read all that I wrote in my comment. Good job...
I myself have never talked crap about PB and I care little how others in my fan base feels either.I don't think there are still as many, something like 10-15 true #1C's is more like it.
I pointed the excuse you used for his lack of points for something most of the Hawks fans were against few years ago in Bergeron vs Toews polls.
Maybe in 1970 when there were 12 teams in the league.I don't think there are still as many, something like 10-15 true #1C's is more like it.
Yeah, it was a goof lol. Despite me thinking he's been one of the most overrated players for nearly as long as he's been in the league (even when the big push came from HF that he was overrated), he's become underrated the last couple years if anything.Yea I don't get it either. I'm thinking he might be joking because usually I appreciate his analysis. Toews is still an elite possession player scoring even better than what Bergeron did last year with much better linemates. The difference in their defensive games is not enough to call one an elite center and the other a bottom 6 player. Toews has regressed but it still a low end 1C, high end 2C who should be making closer to 6.5