How good is Toews

[Binister]

Good 2C. Not really 1C but def not 3C yet.

 

[Matty Sundin]

About half his cap hit.

 

[tony d]

I went with a mid level Option 2.

 

[sr edler]

but people need to do a better job divorcing that disastrous contract, from what Toews still is as a player.

Yeah, I don't know if it's really Toews' fault he got all that money. It's his agents fault!

Seriously though Blackhawks probably should have kept good young forwards like Teräväinen & Panarin, both are leading their teams in scoring right now and Teuvo is a center too.

 

[StoneHands]

There were multiple seasons where he finished with 68 or 69 (nice) pts while missing a decent chunk of time. Finishing at 68 pts while only playing 70 or so games in a given season should earn the benefit of the doubt that he would get at the very least 2 pts in those 12 games he missed.

That would be a good point if it ever happened. He had 66 in 81, 68 in 76 twice, and 69 in 82 but none of those are recent. The last time he had 68 in 76 which is closest to your argument was 5 years ago and at that time I don't think anyone was questioning that he was a top 5ish center. The last 3-4 years even factoring in missed games he's basically pacing for 60 points a year. This year is even less impressive considering the bump in scoring we're seeing league wide. He's been on a steady decline in production since the lockout shortened season.

Anyway, to answer the OP, I think he's a high end 2C or a low end 1C. He can still be a successful 1C on a team with some really good wingers but he's probably better suited to be a 2C on a team with a great 1C so he can take away the touch matchups.

 

[LeafGrief]

He's on the low end offensively for #1C's, preferably a #2C with that production. But his outstanding defensive play means that he'd still be the #1C on plenty of teams.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Low end 5C

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Anyone saying bottom 6 is just trolling.

Low end 1 or high end 2 at this point.

 

[SotasicA]

He's a #20-30 C in the league. Would be the #1 on about 10 teams. Some teams don't really even have a #1 center though, and some have more than one, but that's a rough estimate.

 

[SotasicA]

I think #2C implies there are 31 centers better than him in the game today, which I don't think is true at all.

 

[BB88]

Right now he's a lower end 1C. The one thing people don't seem to fully realize is that most 1Cs play with the best wingers on a team. Toews has been playing with Kane for the last two or so weeks and he's producing at a better than PPG rate. Outside of these past few weeks, however, his best winger this season has been Saad who's never gotten to 55pts in a season.

I look at a guy like Bergeron. Now Bergeron is likely a better player right now then Toews. However, PB has Marchand and Pastrnak as his main linemates. Both of those guys are at least at a PPG pace this season and the worst of the two last year, Pastrnak, had 70pts in 75 games. Again, Bergeron is likely a better player than Toews, but it's a fair assumption that Bergeron isn't putting up near as many points if he had the linemates Toews has had for most of this year.

Toews might not be good enough to be the guy on a line for driving offense, but there are so many other 1Cs that are in the same type of boat, having to play with that team's best winger to create a legit 1st line. Keep him with Kane and someone like Saad at LW for a season and his numbers will absolutely jump up to the mid-to-high sixties while still providing good, but not quite Selke level defense.

I remember when it was "elite players produce no matter who they play with" when we had the Bergeron vs Toews threads few years ago.
Barkov has also proven to produce #1C numbers with garbage on his wings. Among wingers for him last year were guys who were a) bought out after season, has changed teams 4 times this year b)had to retire from NHL next season, c) guy who was waived 3x during the season.

Bergeron is clearly better player than Toews.

I think #2C implies there are 31 centers better than him in the game today, which I don't think is true at all.

There aren't 31 #1C's in this league though.

Just look at Montreal, is one of their C's really a #1C?

 

[CallMeShaft]

I remember when it was "elite players produce no matter who they play with" when we had the Bergeron vs Toews threads few years ago.
Barkov has also proven to produce #1C numbers with garbage on his wings. Among wingers for him last year were guys who were a) bought out after season, has changed teams 4 times this year b)had to retire from NHL next season, c) guy who was waived 3x during the season.

Bergeron is clearly better player than Toews.



There aren't 31 #1C's in this league though.

Just look at Montreal, is one of their C's really a #1C?

First I said two separate times in my post that Bergeron was still likely a better player than Toews. However they've been similar players in their careers (former Selke winners who've both had seasons where they couldn't reach 60pts).

I also said that most 1Cs play with the best wingers on their team. I know Barkov doesn't. Same with Crosby and McDavid.

I also never said in my post that Toews is an elite player anymore. In fact, I said he's currently a lower 1C.

You've literally tried to pick holes in three different things I said without apparently bothering to read all that I wrote in my comment. Good job...

 

[Hawkaholic]

About half his cap hit.

Replies like this are so dumb.

The likes of Cam Atkinson, Patrick Marleau, Kyle Turris, signed recently for ~6mil, (more than half of Toews cap hit).
Hell, Patric Hjornqvist just signed for 5.3mil.

Toews is way better than those players, he would at least get 7.5-8mil on a new deal signed tomorrow.

He is 37th among C's right now in pts. (according to NHL.com)
That's behind guys that rarely play C, and/or aren't near as good all around players. Toews is still a #1C, anyone who says a #3C may as well stop watching hockey.

 

[Rygu]

5 people really think Toews is bottom 6?

 

[acor]

Lol, did people lost their minds??? "Good 3c", "bottom six guy"??? Can those people name 60 better centers???

 

[authentic]

He is a #1 center having a bad offensive season.

 

[SotasicA]

There aren't 31 #1C's in this league though.

Just look at Montreal, is one of their C's really a #1C?

No-one said #1C's are evenly distributed among all 31 teams. Some have multiple, some have none.

 

[BB88]

No-one said #1C's are evenly distributed among all 31 teams. Some have multiple, some have none.

I don't think there are still as many, something like 10-15 true #1C's is more like it.

First I said two separate times in my post that Bergeron was still likely a better player than Toews. However they've been similar players in their careers (former Selke winners who've both had seasons where they couldn't reach 60pts).

I also said that most 1Cs play with the best wingers on their team. I know Barkov doesn't. Same with Crosby and McDavid.

I also never said in my post that Toews is an elite player anymore. In fact, I said he's currently a lower 1C.

You've literally tried to pick holes in three different things I said without apparently bothering to read all that I wrote in my comment. Good job...

I pointed the excuse you used for his lack of points for something most of the Hawks fans were against few years ago in Bergeron vs Toews polls.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I don't think there are still as many, something like 10-15 true #1C's is more like it.



I pointed the excuse you used for his lack of points for something most of the Hawks fans were against few years ago in Bergeron vs Toews polls.

I myself have never talked crap about PB and I care little how others in my fan base feels either.

 

[SotasicA]

I don't think there are still as many, something like 10-15 true #1C's is more like it.

Maybe in 1970 when there were 12 teams in the league.

How many #1 goalies would you say there are in the league?

 

[blundluntman]

I think he's your ideal 2c on a cup winning team, could be a 1c on a team that is centered around defense too though. Throw the contract on top and he's only producing about 2/3 of the value he should provide.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Yea I don't get it either. I'm thinking he might be joking because usually I appreciate his analysis. Toews is still an elite possession player scoring even better than what Bergeron did last year with much better linemates. The difference in their defensive games is not enough to call one an elite center and the other a bottom 6 player. Toews has regressed but it still a low end 1C, high end 2C who should be making closer to 6.5

Yeah, it was a goof lol. Despite me thinking he's been one of the most overrated players for nearly as long as he's been in the league (even when the big push came from HF that he was overrated), he's become underrated the last couple years if anything.

He's probably a fringe 1C at the moment.

 

[Connor McConnor]

He's Mikael Backlund.. a very good #2C

 

[Leonhard Euler]

The case of player being overrated by some so then in turn extremely underrated by others. If Toews is your #2C you are extremely happy about it.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

2C .