GDT: Home Cookin' - Blues (11-3-1, 1st in West) @ Devils (9-3-1, 2nd in East), 7 PM, MSG+2

[The Devil In I]

Indeed it is, hope you can handle it friendo.

But seriously, someone explain something Zacha does well that isn't "well he's a big body that takes up space in the defensive zone".

"But he looks SO SKILLED while doing it!"

(This was the reasoning to pick him leading up to the draft despite shitty production for a projected top 10 pick.)

 

[tr83]

Guy.. Zacha has been an absolute nobody this year so far.

Wait, that's not fair. He's been a net-negative with his penalties and turnovers.

Will be one of our more notable whiffs in the draft in recent history.

He's f***ing 20

 

[Camille the Eel]

Why? Because he was a high draft pick? He has done absolutely nothing aside from play himself out of top 6 minutes. Not saying he sucks or can't improve. I just can't fathom how anyone could think he deserves top 6 minutes at this point. Honestly, him and Severson have been the biggest disappointments/underachievers this year. But for whatever reason the majority of this board loses its mind if you rightfully criticize either of those players.

In Edmonton, where he handled McDavid for the last two periods of the game, Zacha showed me a lot. Put Bratt on his right wing, Johanson on his left and give him a dozen games. With some power play time. Then have this conversation.

 

[Steelman]

We need Palmieri and Johansson back. We win the last 3 games with them in the lineup

 

[Combat Koala]

Why? Because he was a high draft pick? He has done absolutely nothing aside from play himself out of top 6 minutes. Not saying he sucks or can't improve. I just can't fathom how anyone could think he deserves top 6 minutes at this point. Honestly, him and Severson have been the biggest disappointments/underachievers this year. But for whatever reason the majority of this board loses its mind if you rightfully criticize either of those players.

I hate to admit it but I have to agree with you. Zacha has not shown me anything in the games I've seen. In the highlights of other games, he is nowhere to be found. MIA. I'm all for giving him every possible chance to succeed but he has to get his head in the game. I'm not quite sure what it's about; low confidence, lack of hockey IQ or lack of drive/determination in his game. He has a lot of skill, is big and can skate and shoot well. The tools are there and that is why I'm slightly worried about him not producing. It's also as if he has no chemistry with anyone out there.

I have faith in Zacha but he should really start stepping it up a bit if he wants those top 6 minutes.

 

[DevilWithin]

Report Card:
Hall - B
Hayes - B-
Boyle - B+
Hischier - B-
Henrique - C
Stafford - B-
Noesen - B
Zacha - C
Gibbons - C
Coleman - B+
Wood - B-
Bratt - B-
------------------------------
Moore - B+
Greene - C
Butcher - B-
Lovejoy - B-
Santini - B+
Mueller - C
------------------------------
Schneider - A+

 

[devilsblood]

I think Zacha has been meh, but not terrible.

Does he deserve top 6 minutes? Maybe not, but he would benefit from them. The results, when playing with the likes of Hayes, are not going to be overly impressive.

But I do agree after an impressive preseason that we have seen has been disappointing. And clearly a mental/lack of aggression thing.

 

[devilsblood]

Report Card:
Hall - B
Hayes - B-
Boyle - B+
Hischier - B-
Henrique - C
Stafford - B-
Noesen - B
Zacha - C
Gibbons - C
Coleman - B+
Wood - B-
Bratt - B-
------------------------------
Moore - B+
Greene - C
Butcher - B-
Lovejoy - B-
Santini - B+
Mueller - C
------------------------------
Schneider - A+

Is this on a curve of some kind?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Pavel Zacha scored/is scoring at a ~30 point pace as a 19/20 year old between this year and last, with most of that time being on a horrific offensive team and playing with not very good players like Josefson, Hayes, etc.

PATIENCE. Not every player develops at the same speed. Zacha has already tremendously improved his defensive game from what I have seen.

 

[DevilWithin]

Is this on a curve of some kind?

Yes lol. I guess you can make the B grades C and the C grades D.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Indeed it is, hope you can handle it friendo.

But seriously, someone explain something Zacha does well that isn't "well he's a big body that takes up space in the defensive zone".

He's fantastic at forechecking and generating turnovers in the offensive zone. He gave Gibbons a fantastic setup against Calgary and was disrupting the Blues defense a lot last night as well.

I think one of his problems is he doesn't realize how much time and space he has. A few times last night he had the puck in good position and made a blind pass behind the back, or threw the puck towards the net. If he took a second and saw his options he'd be much more efficient.

His play is improving even if the points aren't there. He's generating more shots and turnovers now than he was in the first 5 games of the season. I just wish he made better decisions. But he's playing the right way. Points will come.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Point production does not necessarily equal player development. I feel like some people only analyze that and that alone.

Of course we all want Zacha to have his name all over the scoresheet, but at the same time, he's a player who needs to work on a lot of mental aspects in his game. You're seeing some of that progress right now with his defensive play and shooting more.

 

[NJDevs26]

Ripping Santini based on analytics shows why analytics are so overrated for a defenseman. Santini is being utilized in a completely one-dimensional role a la Larsson, of course the analytics won't look great. But there's a reason he keeps getting those assignments.

 

[NJDevs26]

PATIENCE. Not every player develops at the same speed. Zacha has already tremendously improved his defensive game from what I have seen.

Therein lies the problem...a lot of players drafted around Zacha have already made a bigger impact, and I don't just mean the defensemen so the vultures are going to be circling. While I mostly agree Zacha has a lot of time I at least want to see improvement from last year and so far he really hasn't shown that offensively.

 

[The Devil In I]

Point production does not necessarily equal player development. I feel like some people only analyze that and that alone.

Of course we all want Zacha to have his name all over the scoresheet, but at the same time, he's a player who needs to work on a lot of mental aspects in his game. You're seeing some of that progress right now with his defensive play and shooting more.

It's not just point production, but offensive chances production. He's a forward drafted 6th overall..so he's expected to be someone who will create plays. Yes, he plays well defensively. Yes, he shows strong board work on the cycle. You can tell he's clearly an NHL-worthy talent and will stick in the league for a long time. But his season thus far has been almost completely void of creating chances. You hardly notice him offensively other than horrible offensive zone turnovers. There's been next to nothing to indicate that the points will start piling up any time soon.

 

[BahlDeep]

And I can't criticize him since he's the board's darling but Santini needs to be better. This guy is near the bottom of the league amongst all defenseman in nearly every analytical stat. Out of defenseman that have played 50 minutes on the 5 on 5 he's:

3rd to last in CF%
6th to last in Rel CF%
Bottom 15 in xGF%

And his actual 5 on 5 GF differential hasn't been great either compared to our team. I get we are placing him in a hard position, but man he's struggling. He's near the bottom of the team in every stat. And I get that he's getting D-Zone starts (even though it's shown that doesn't have a large impact on possession) and I get he's facing tough competition, but Greene is blowing him out of the water in terms of advanced stats facing similar usage levels.

Most similiar defenseman to him statistically this year are: Erik Gudbranson, Adam McQuaid, Mike Reilly, and Dennis Seidenberg. Not a encouraging group.

And I know I know, I'm just the moron who uses advanced stats and has no idea what I'm watching. But even when I'm watching the games, I see Santini struggle to get the puck out. He made the wrong decision at the point several times last game. Yes he'll make the occasional good defensive play and block a shot, but you're not going to win when one of your top minute grabbing defenseman is getting killed like this analytically.

I'm not saying he can't get better he's still very young, but this guy certainly isn't one of our major positives at the moment.

Santini isn't struggling at all. He's going against the best players. He played around 60 games in his career. He's holding his own defensively. He is a positive.

This is complete non sense.

3 of the 4 players you mentioned have over 350 games played

 

[njdevs1337]

Therein lies the problem...a lot of players drafted around Zacha have already made a bigger impact, and I don't just mean the defensemen so the vultures are going to be circling. While I mostly agree Zacha has a lot of time I at least want to see improvement from last year and so far he really hasn't shown that offensively.

Look at Dylan strome. He was taken 3rd overall and can't even crack their line up. He was averaging over 2 points a game in the ohl. I do think zacha is developing slowly. I still think zacha should play on the wing. Even last year he never looked good at center. It was even talked about when he was drafted that long term he will probably play on the wing. I'm hoping that he's only playing center now because zajac is out. But if you do put him at wing give him good line mates that will help him grow. Not boyle and Hayes. Barzal is playing with eberle and ladd rantanen is with mackinnon boeser is playing with Horvat. Boost his confidence. I've said it a few times. Put him with nico. They are the future of the franchise. Let them grow together from the start. I don't mind him being scratched. He's not playing well. Needs to be woken up. He should have at east 2 shots a game.

 

[Jets012]

Ripping Santini based on analytics shows why analytics are so overrated for a defenseman. Santini is being utilized in a completely one-dimensional role a la Larsson, of course the analytics won't look great. But there's a reason he keeps getting those assignments.

I understand Santini is facing tough assignments and tough competition. But you really think part of his job when facing that competition is to not get the puck out of the zone? How do you win games if one of your top minute grabbing defenseman is ALWAYS in his own zone. If we are getting outshot and out-chanced every game, our chances of winning simply declines. Part of Santini's job IS to get the puck out of the zone and LIMIT opponent's shots. I'm not asking him to be a point producer or even to generate possession/offense. He's not that type of defenseman. But he certainly could do a better job limiting chances than he currently is. And that starts with not getting trapped in his zone a ton.

 

[BahlDeep]

I understand Santini is facing tough assignments and tough competition. But you really think part of his job when facing that competition is to not get the puck out of the zone? How do you win games if one of your top minute grabbing defenseman is ALWAYS in his own zone. If we are getting outshot and out-chanced every game, our chances of winning simply declines. Part of Santini's job IS to get the puck out of the zone and LIMIT opponent's shots. I'm not asking him to be a point producer or even to generate possession/offense. He's not that type of defenseman. But he certainly could do a better job limiting chances than he currently is. And that starts with not getting trapped in his zone a ton.

This is all about you being bitter because your golden boy Severson gets shit on

 

[tr83]

Zacha has great talent. It may take a couple of hundred games for the game to slow down for him.

 

[Bleedred]

This is all about you being bitter because your golden boy Severson gets **** on

I’ll never understand why you think Severson is so bad.

One of the reasons I started caring at all about advanced stats was after having to hear about how bad defensemen like him are at defense. I don’t even think Severson fails the eye test this year, outside of a few poor plays and losing his man once or twice and it leading to goals.

And that’s not bitterness, he’s using stats to back it up. You don’t have to agree with them, but by calling him bitter about it, it’s like you’re accusing him of making things up.

 

[devilsblood]

I understand Santini is facing tough assignments and tough competition. But you really think part of his job when facing that competition is to not get the puck out of the zone? How do you win games if one of your top minute grabbing defenseman is ALWAYS in his own zone. If we are getting outshot and out-chanced every game, our chances of winning simply declines. Part of Santini's job IS to get the puck out of the zone and LIMIT opponent's shots. I'm not asking him to be a point producer or even to generate possession/offense. He's not that type of defenseman. But he certainly could do a better job limiting chances than he currently is. And that starts with not getting trapped in his zone a ton.

But aren't Santini's zone starts ridiculously tilted towards the d-zone? I remember Greene and Lars being right at the top in terms of d-zone starts.

Seems like something Hynes really likes to do.

 

[devilsblood]

Look at Dylan strome. He was taken 3rd overall and can't even crack their line up. He was averaging over 2 points a game in the ohl. I do think zacha is developing slowly. I still think zacha should play on the wing. Even last year he never looked good at center. It was even talked about when he was drafted that long term he will probably play on the wing. I'm hoping that he's only playing center now because zajac is out. But if you do put him at wing give him good line mates that will help him grow. Not boyle and Hayes. Barzal is playing with eberle and ladd rantanen is with mackinnon boeser is playing with Horvat. Boost his confidence. I've said it a few times. Put him with nico. They are the future of the franchise. Let them grow together from the start. I don't mind him being scratched. He's not playing well. Needs to be woken up. He should have at east 2 shots a game.

I think his responsible play makes him look to be a center. But in terms of development I do wonder if moving to wing and relieving some of that responsibility won't open up his offense.

Will be interesting to see who moves to wing when Zajac returns.

 

[Bleedred]

But aren't Santini's zone starts ridiculously tilted towards the d-zone? I remember Greene and Lars being right at the top in terms of d-zone starts.

Seems like something Hynes really likes to do.

Yeah, Greene and Larsson were started like 70%+ in the D-zone that year and both had poor corsi/relative corsi.

As of a few days ago, I remember coming across something where Santini had some of the lowest danger shots against on the team. So while he allows a lot of chances, they were coming from the most low-dangers areas, which would definitely explain why he passes the eye test right now, but is not when it comes to the underlying stats.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Ripping Santini based on analytics shows why analytics are so overrated for a defenseman. Santini is being utilized in a completely one-dimensional role a la Larsson, of course the analytics won't look great. But there's a reason he keeps getting those assignments.

Proof that some posters don’t actually watch games and instead just look at spreadsheets.