Speculation: Harkins vs Vesalainen

[Hunter368]

I like both guys, I think both could be middle six forwards in the NHL. I caution people not to under sell Harkins in this poll, but I suspect he might get over looked a bit anyways.

Harkins the scrappy underdog or Vesalainen who carries more draft hype?

Who is going to have a better NHL career Harkins or Vesalainen?

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[Joe Hallenback]

Ves has more upside but I think Harkins is going to build a solid career. Ves has bust written all over him. He can come back here and find it hard and head back to europe to make an much easier living

 

[Whileee]

I think KV will have an NHL career, perhaps topping out as a top-6 winger. But he might not have as long a career as Harkins, who I think can be a very good middle 6 forward(maybe 3C) who has a long career and makes a difference on occasion in the playoffs.

 

[surixon]

This is a pretty tough question.

Harkins has pretty solid pedigree himself as second round pick in a deep draft. He has good size, smarts, solid hands and above average vision and playmaking. Couple that with his work ethic and much improved skating and I see him having a long career as an above average third line center/winger.

Vesalainen has great size, good hands, a terrific shot, and is a very good skater. He also seems to have come to the realization that he needs to work his ass off in order to make and stick in the NHL. I think there is a path for him here to grow into a second line winger slot over the next couple of seasons if he applies himself.

I like both players but ill say Harkins work ethic and probably greater degree of versatility will carry him to a longer career.

 

[KingBogo]

Great poll question and one I'm having a difficult time landing on. Before KV went back to Liiga this season I would easily be on Harkins side, but KV looks to have taken the next step in his development this season. I'll agree with those that see a higher ceiling for KV, but a greater chance of a long NHL career for Harkins. Still leaves me undecided on who will have a better career.

 

[Adam da bomb]

This is a pretty tough question.

Harkins has pretty solid pedigree himself as second round pick in a deep draft. He has good size, smarts, solid hands and above average vision and playmaking. Couple that with his work ethic and much improved skating and I see him having a long career as an above average third line center/winger.

Vesalainen has great size, good hands, a terrific shot, and is a very good skater. He also seems to have come to the realization that he needs to work his ass off in order to make and stick in the NHL. I think there is a path for him here to grow into a second line winger slot over the next couple of seasons if he applies himself.

I like both players but ill say Harkins work ethic and probably greater degree of versatility will carry him to a longer career.

But if KV is a second line player, the question is whether he'll ever get an opportunity. None of our bottom 6 have kicked down the door so there is always opportunities for Harkins to take the spot and run with it. For KV he's competing against, Wheeler, Laine on one side and KC and Ehlers on the other side. If we move Laine we probably want a top 6 winger in return.

 

[LowLefty]

I see a better future for Harkins based on his average at best skill level and his better than average work ethic.
I love these type of players - they work hard every night and don't rely on a pedigree that hands them opportunity or success.

Jury is still out on KV but I was hoping for more, sooner - he has the skill - does he have the drive to play the NHL game?
I hope so - I look forward to seeing him play this year. And even more so, I look forward to seeing what kind of edge he brings with that 6'4" frame.

 

[surixon]

But if KV is a second line player, the question is whether he'll ever get an opportunity. None of our bottom 6 have kicked down the door so there is always opportunities for Harkins to take the spot and run with it. For KV he's competing against, Wheeler, Laine on one side and KC and Ehlers on the other side. If we move Laine we probably want a top 6 winger in return.

Ves can play both wings as can Ehlers. There are two paths for Ves to become a top 6 winger, one is a Laine trade for a more pressing positional player like a top pairing RD. The second is Wheeler aging out of a top 6 role over the next 2 to 3 seasons if Laine is still here.

 

[Whileee]

But if KV is a second line player, the question is whether he'll ever get an opportunity. None of our bottom 6 have kicked down the door so there is always opportunities for Harkins to take the spot and run with it. For KV he's competing against, Wheeler, Laine on one side and KC and Ehlers on the other side. If we move Laine we probably want a top 6 winger in return.

I could also see KV following the path of Armia. He had a scoring pedigree, but was able to use his size and skill to add value on a 3rd line.

 

[KingBogo]

I could also see KV following the path of Armia. He had a scoring pedigree, but was able to use his size and skill to add value on a 3rd line.

Yeah, I've seen KV as a good comparable to Armia. Armia took awhile to adapt to the NA game but he worked hard at finding a fit for his skill set.

 

[surixon]

I could also see KV following the path of Armia. He had a scoring pedigree, but was able to use his size and skill to add value on a 3rd line.

I hope we see a number of different combinations in camp this year. I think we will need to have a well balanced and deep forward core to really compete. I think Ves could earn himself a spot anywhere in the bottom 6 depending on how Maurice elects to construct his lines.

 

[surixon]

Yeah, I've seen KV as a good comparable to Armia. Armia took awhile to adapt to the NA game but he worked hard at finding a fit for his skill set.

I think the one thing that set the two apart is Ves is a better skater and has an elite shot whereas Armia had a pretty ordinary one. I think had Armia had a plus shot he would be an everyday second line player and not a good third line player. I wouldn't be disappointed with a big plus third line forward in Ves but I think he can hit higher given his tools.

 

[lanky]

It sounds like Harkins is far more committed to development than the average bear. The type of player who will hit the ceiling that others have placed on him and then slowly break through it.

 

[HannuJ]

Harkins already ate his humble pie. think his ceiling is 3rd line.
Vesalainen didn't enjoy the pie he was served 2 years in a row. you hope he ate it. if so, he'll be a pretty good player. all star? no. 2nd line ceiling? sure

 

[TS Quint]

Harkins and it isn’t close.

Ves’s greatest accomplishment is being drafted in the 1st round. He hasn’t done anything after that to show he is even going to play another game with the Jets outside that 5 game stint that had nothing to do with his contributions to the hockey team. Offensively he’s right up there with JC Lipon. I’m hoping he can one day develop to the point where he can kick the puck along the boards with Lowry and at this point that seems like an outside shot. Any talk of top 6 is just outlandish.

 

[Whileee]

Harkins and it isn’t close.

Ves’s greatest accomplishment is being drafted in the 1st round. He hasn’t done anything after that to show he is even going to play another game with the Jets outside that 5 game stint that had nothing to do with his contributions to the hockey team. Offensively he’s right up there with JC Lipon. I’m hoping he can one day develop to the point where he can kick the puck along the boards with Lowry and at this point that seems like an outside shot. Any talk of top 6 is just outlandish.

I disagree. Vesalainen has shown some really good potential based on his play with Liiga and KHL in his D+1 and D+2 seasons.

In his D+3 season in the AHL, his point production was the same as Armia at the same stage, with a higher goal-scoring rate.

He was 20 years old last season - way too young to write off a European power forward. In addition to Armia, consider other big European forwards like Gurianov and Hintz, who had a very similar trajectory as Vesalainen, and now are quality middle-6 NHL forwards.

 

[sipowicz]

Harkins has already proven he can play in the NHL, Versa-Laine hasn’t!

potential means nothing until you prove you can play in the NHL!

 

[buggs]

I think are both ideally suited to a third line role on a team that isn't the Jets. Or isn't coached by Maurice. I'm not knocking Lowry in the sense that his line tilts the ice in the Jets favor, but they score so little. But a balanced minute spread between a third 'scoring' line with Harkins/Ves/X and a killer fourth checking line of Lowry/Copp/X with the minutes being pulled back from the 1st line still seems worth investigating to me. Or reverse the line designations if it makes you happier.

Of the two, I think both get undersold to be honest. Few will remember that Harkins in his draft year was at one point mentioned as a first rounder (in the September before the draft occurred) - I was thrilled to get him where we did. Obviously he fell considerably from that but at one point he looked pretty good. I think he's worked his way into a strong position and will have a solid career in the NHL, though I'm not sure he'll ever get much more than a two year deal from anyone. Not that it matters, I'd be ecstatic to be signing 2x $1.1 deals for my entire career once I realize I'm not getting first line money. I could play ten years and make more than most people ever will in their lives.

Ves on the other hand gets undersold as well. Nobody seems to recall he was drafted 24th OA rather than 10th or 13th or something like that. He's never had the notional suggestion of being a center, an advantage that Roslovic has had and probably afforded him a different trajectory (with similar outcome?). He's also European and has had to adapt to the American game and ice surface, something Jack grew up in (yes, I know we're talking about Harkins, but Roslovic has similar draft position being a first rounder). So he didn't knock down the barn door. Oops. Wheeler-Connor, Ehlers-Laine, Copp - X (Lowry). Where was he supposed to fit in there? The Jets had exactly zero need to rush him through his development and have taken their time with him. He seems to have realized, based on his own recent comments, that his early expectations were unreasonable.

Harkins will be a good utility guy for a long time. Ves has the higher ceiling still.

If you want to talk who is being undersold more, I'll go with Vesalainen. This is the same board that had a substantial number of posters that were ready to give up on a kid named Morrissey after he "couldn't get out of the A" for two years.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

If you want to talk who is being undersold more, I'll go with Vesalainen. This is the same board that had a substantial number of posters that were ready to give up on a kid named Morrissey after he "couldn't get out of the A" for two years.

I'm still not sold on JoMo as a first pairing D man. I thought we were getting a fast-skating, offensive D man with a mean streak. I think Morrissey has become very... ahem, wait for it... Maurice-y.

 

[MardyBum]

Harkins and it isn’t close.

Ves’s greatest accomplishment is being drafted in the 1st round. He hasn’t done anything after that to show he is even going to play another game with the Jets outside that 5 game stint that had nothing to do with his contributions to the hockey team. Offensively he’s right up there with JC Lipon. I’m hoping he can one day develop to the point where he can kick the puck along the boards with Lowry and at this point that seems like an outside shot. Any talk of top 6 is just outlandish.

You're acting like they're the same age. What was Harkins doing two years ago?

Putting up .5 ppg in the AHL.

 

[DRW204]

i think Vesalainen will have the more productive NHL career.

 

[Whileee]

You're acting like they're the same age. What was Harkins doing two years ago?

Putting up .5 ppg in the AHL.

As a 20 year old, Harkins put up 0.28 points per game (AHL).
As a 21 year old, Harkins put up 0.44 points per game.

As a 20 year old, Vesalainen put up 0.50 points/game in the AHL.

 

[TS Quint]

You're acting like they're the same age. What was Harkins doing two years ago?

Putting up .5 ppg in the AHL.

You are saying development is the same for everyone? Or you are saying anything can happen with any player?

 

[MardyBum]

You are saying development is the same for everyone? Or you are saying anything can happen with any player?

It's not the same for every player, but age matters especially the closer you are to their draft year.

Harkins did nothing to show he was going to play a single game with the Jets until his D+5 season. Ves is tracking similar to Gurianov. He'll get a shot eventually to show he belongs. He's already performing better than Harkins did, Vincent likes him, Ves likes the staff, they're working on changing his game to a more North American one which I'm sure hurts a bit of the offense in the AHL.

I mean, re-read your post. You're basically calling him a bust at 21.

 

[TS Quint]

It's not the same for every player, but age matters especially the closer you are to their draft year.

Harkins did nothing to show he was going to play a single game with the Jets until his D+5 season. Ves is tracking similar to Gurianov. He'll get a shot eventually to show he belongs.

I mean, re-read your post. You're basically calling him a bust at 21.

I agree we have more information since his draft year. This information is clearly lowering his likely ceiling. I don’t think that can be argued. At least not logically.

If you want me to agree that anything can happen I guess I can do that. I’m not understanding your point. Are you wanting me to look up more players that are on the same path as Ves that didn’t make it and you look look up ones that did, I’m going to win. You are cherry picking.

Yes, at 21 years old I have very little confidence that Ves will have a productive NHL career if at all at this point.