Greatest Russian hockey players regardless of league?

[Sentinel]

For the record, Canada always had better depth and better teams on paper, but there is little doubt that the best Soviet players were pretty much at the same level with the best Canadian players.

Yet very few people are willing to acknowledge that Makarov and Fetisov squarely belong in the Top 20 of all time.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

... ..................................................... you sure now?.......................................... ......................... DB = Oleg Petrov. Done.

Thanks!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yet very few people are willing to acknowledge that Makarov and Fetisov squarely belong in the Top 20 of all time.

I'd say there's a stronger case for Makarov.

 

[Sentinel]

I don't feel like opening a new thread, so I'll resurrect this one. I just watched a 2017 Russian TV clip named "10 Best Russian Players in NHL." It's in Russian, but you don't need translation. It's interesting to see how the Russian perspective of their best players differs from the one accepted here.

 

[Fantomas]

That's just one video. Wouldn't call that "the Russian perspective" because there are many different Russian perspectives.

 

[Troubadour]

I don't feel like opening a new thread, so I'll resurrect this one. I just watched a Russian TV clip named "10 Best Russian Players in NHL" from 2017. It's in Russian, but you don't need translation. It's interesting to see how the Russian perspective of their best players differs from the one accepted here.

Interesting. Translation would do us good though. Btw who is the girl talking about Datsyuk?

 

[Sentinel]

Still, the idea of Larionov above both Malkin and Ovechkin is quite unorthodox. Not entirely indefensible IMO.

 

[Sentinel]

Interesting. Translation would do us good though. Btw who is the girl talking about Datsyuk?

A female Russian hockey player saying how great he is.

Believe me, they don't say anything you don't already know. Otherwise I would translate.

 

[Fantomas]

If Ovy wins the Cup he goes all the way up to #1. No doubt.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Still, the idea of Larionov above both Malkin and Ovechkin is quite unorthodox. Not entirely indefensible IMO.

I'd say it is indefensible.

 

[Sentinel]

I'd say it is indefensible.

For some people there is more to hockey than offensive stats.

 

[Peiskos]

I feel questions like this are best answered by the nations people of where said player hails from. For example Canadians ultimately have the final say in who the greatest Canadian hockey player is, Russians have the final say as to who the greatest Russian hockey player is etc etc.

The rest of us can only give our opinion. For me I have to go with Alexander Ovechkin, he is shortly to overtake Sergei Fedorov for all time points in the NHL, already the greatest Russian goal scorer of all time by a 120+ goal margin and arguably the greatest goal scorer in NHL history factoring in the era he plays in.

But questions like this are always such loaded questions, what are the qualifications to be the "Greatest" player for a certain country? is it offensive numbers? and if so does that mean that a defender can never dream of being Russia's greatest hockey player? or even a goalie? ..yes goalies are players of this sport too.

 

[MaxV]

I feel questions like this are best answered by the nations people of where said player hails from.

I don’t see why. If your opinion is objective, have a good understanding of the game and have followed every player from said country, there is nothing that is stopping you from having an opinion on the subject.

The problem with these lists is that hockey landscape have changed tremendously over the years, so judging eras is really difficult.

 

[Thenameless]

I don't think Coffey was ever Fetisov's main competition for the "best defenseman in the world" title, but rather Denis Potvin (early 1980s) and Ray Bourque (mid-/late-1980s).

Personally, I keep flipping between Makarov and Fetisov, and I don't think you can go wrong with either one at #1. As a kid (in the 1980s), Fetisov seemed a better or at least a more important player to me, and without a doubt I would have chosen him back then. However, later on Makarov has started to look better and better (eye test and when looking more closely at his accomplishments), and on paper he is slightly more impressive and especially more consistent than Fetisov.

Trust your instinct when you were watching them play. If it was Fetisov then, it was for good reason. Things get lost when we look back primarily at statistics. It's different when people actually watch the players play.

People look back at the 1984 playoff scoring stats and say that Gretzky should have won the Conn Smythe (and he would not have been a bad choice). But those who actually watched, and understand the nuances of hockey, understood the difference that Messier made in eventually overcoming the Islanders. Same thing with Butch Goring on the Islanders.

 

[VMBM]

Trust your instinct when you were watching them play. If it was Fetisov then, it was for good reason. Things get lost when we look back primarily at statistics. It's different when people actually watch the players play.

People look back at the 1984 playoff scoring stats and say that Gretzky should have won the Conn Smythe (and he would not have been a bad choice). But those who actually watched, and understand the nuances of hockey, understood the difference that Messier made in eventually overcoming the Islanders. Same thing with Butch Goring on the Islanders.

That's a fair point. However, I don't think my 'younger self' was necessarily the greatest evaluator in the world; I mean, I wouldn't trust that guy very much . It's just that Fetisov stood out more back then; he was the unquestionable team leader, he was big, strong, nasty, mobile and skilled, and an offensive kind of defenceman as well as a rock on defence. Not something we had seen on Team USSR before. Makarov, on the other hand, was more of a typical Russian superstar forward; a small and speedy offensive wizard, in the same mold as Kharlamov. (Not maybe as flashy but somehow more consistent.)

It's not so much about statistics, but I have watched a lot of old games in recent years, and nowadays Makarov looks at least as good as Fetisov to my eyes. Then when you compare e.g. their Soviet MVP voting, Makarov starts to look even a little better. But like I said, I still keep flipping between them.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Helmut as well had Tretriak's number down cold. He noticed that Vladislav was weak, often caught napping on shots from afar, from a distance, so rather than even bothering to expend his energy in taking apart Tretriak's Defencemen & so on he'd just wind up & let er' rip with a slapper or quick release wrister from far out... blowing them right by the guy on numerous occasions if reports are accurate. Too bad the rest of the hockey world didnt know about that... coulda save ourselves a lot of grief. Go for the long range drifters, shock & awe, surprise shots... Vladislavs' havin a nap. Like Cloutier in 2003 vs Detroit.... Brodeur vs the Ducks in 03..... Thomas, Boston vs NJ, 2006... ha? Remember that Mr. Bonvie? Timmie there Whiffing on a dribbler he nonchalantly tried to sweep away? And against Jersey... of all the low life....

Shame that on New Years Eve of 1975, The Canadians didn't know this!

Who could forget that game?

Those of us old enough to remember those Montreal teams—Lafleur, Dryden, Savard, Lapoint, Robinson and the rest—are also old enough to forget that the Canadiens team that played the Red Army had been knocked out in the second round of the playoffs the previous spring by Buffalo and watched Philadelphia raise the Cup. That is to say, the dynasty hadn’t quite started. It could be argued the New Year’s Eve game made a very good Montreal team great for the next several years...

 

[Son Goku]

I believe Malkin will finish close to top five all time

 

[Killion]

Shame that on New Years Eve of 1975, The Canadians didn't know this!

Who could forget that game?

Those of us old enough to remember those Montreal teams—Lafleur, Dryden, Savard, Lapoint, Robinson and the rest—are also old enough to forget that the Canadiens team that played the Red Army had been knocked out in the second round of the playoffs the previous spring by Buffalo and watched Philadelphia raise the Cup. That is to say, the dynasty hadn’t quite started. It could be argued the New Year’s Eve game made a very good Montreal team great for the next several years...

Ya, and I think youd win that argument, I'd certainly take your side on it. Those "Friendlies" against the Soviets extremely beneficial as is the case whenever you face a superior & or unusual opponent that pushes ones limits. Different rules employed, a larger ice surface, different style of game & so on. Win, lose (provided its not a Blowout) or draw such experiences extremely edifying, satisfying, building confidence even if you do lose by a squeaker. Hard fought game & I dont mean with your fists, Mugging the Russians or gettin down & dirty about it. Play clean, go head-head with skating, stickhandling, playmaking, goaltending etc.

I think I recently mentioned the May 1959 Euro Tour, New York & Boston Barnstorming through 6 countries, 10 cities, 23 games in 26 days however they played each other rather than National Teams. Chicago's Bobby Hull & Ed Litzenberger amongst others added to the Bruins & Rangers rosters. Some guys sitting it out, recovering from the NHL Regular Season & Playoffs, injured or whatever. Hull was finishing up his second season, a Checking Center. He wasnt "mediocre" by any stretch but he wasnt exactly lighting the world on fire & it was playing in that series on International Ice Surfaces... and in his own words to paraphrase;

"It just so happened in those big rinks I could skate and shoot and it all came together (he played on a line with Ed Litzenberger & Eddie Shack). Had I not made that trip to Europe and played as well as I did gaining all that confidence who knows where my career might have ended up. I wouldnt even want to speculate".

... and the Golden Jet was launched. Radical. Electrified, changed the game. The earliest Euro Tour was in 38, Montreal & Detroit playing a 9 game series, the Habs winning 5-3-1, some interesting player development resulting from that little hot house experiment as well. So yes. Most helpful to broaden ones experience in playing on the bigger ice surfaces and then as the rest of the alpine & hockey playing nations becoming competitive, even earlier Canadian vs American bred players, good to great amateur players, College, High School etc extremely helpful. Accelerating development, gaining confidence etc on both sides, all sides of whatever borders.

 

[Batis]

My list would look something like this.

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Ovechkin
4. Firsov
5. Kharlamov
6. Malkin
7. Tretiak
8. Fedorov
9. Maltsev
10. Mikhailov

I have 3 tiers on my top 10 list in which I could see myself ranking the players in pretty much any order.

Tier 1. Makarov/Fetisov/Ovechkin
Tier 2. Firsov/Kharlamov/Malkin/Tretiak
Tier 3. Fedorov/Maltsev/Mikhailov

 

[Neutrinos]

If Ovy wins the Cup he goes all the way up to #1. No doubt.

So if he wins a Cup, but has 0 points in the Finals, he's #1?

Conversely, if he scores 10 goals in the Finals, but the Capitals lose in 4 games, he's not #1?


Seems to me that we should be judging individual players on their individual contributions, and not on the outcome of a team game

 

[Neutrinos]

I'm not really sure how you can have Ovechkin in the top 3, but not include Bure in the top 10

 

[Fantomas]

So if he wins a Cup, but has 0 points in the Finals, he's #1?

Conversely, if he scores 10 goals in the Finals, but the Capitals lose in 4 games, he's not #1?


Seems to me that we should be judging individual players on their individual contributions, and not on the outcome of a team game

Agreed, but I'm simply saying that this is what I expect the new optics to be.

 

[Plural]

Shit. Even if I know it, every time I watch the top-end names in Russia/Soviet hockey I just go wow.

 

[Plural]

I'm not really sure how you can have Ovechkin in the top 3, but not include Bure in the top 10

I think Bure is really close to top-10 in every list that doesn't have him. But there's quite sizable gap between Bure and OV.

 

[Spirit of 67]

In a list like this (see below) of all-time greatest Russian hockey players where do “NHL Russians” like Bure, Mogilny, Kovalev, Larionov, Nabakov, Khabibulin, Bryzgalov, Bobrovsky, Federov, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Zubov, Gonchar, Konstantinov, Kasparaitis, etc fit in?

1.Tretiak
2.Kharlamov
3.Fetisov
4.Firsov
5.Bobrov
6.Makarov
7.Maltsev
8.Vasiliev
9.Mikhailov
10.Krutov

The 2 best Russian NHL'ers I've seen are Datsyuk and Larionov. With the latter having more success/prime years spent outside the NHL.
He was excellent.

I'm a bit young to give a good assessment Kharlamov but do remember him being a great player.