Greatest Russian hockey players regardless of league?

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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I think Bure is really close to top-10 in every list that doesn't have him. But there's quite sizable gap between Bure and OV.

I don't really think there is a sizeable gap, unless you're putting a tremendous value on health and longevity

I think on a per game basis, they're relatively close - especially when you factor in the quality of their respective linemates over the years
 
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Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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I don't really think there is a sizeable gap, unless you're putting a tremendous value on longevity

I think on a per game basis, they're relatively close

At their best? Maybe. Although I'd argue OV's best is a notch above. In terms of amount of games at their best, it certainly is a sizable difference. That said, I'd have no qualms if someone has Bure in their top-10. I guess it speaks more to the strength and diversity of Russian/Soviet players when Pavel Bure is not a must addition to your top-10.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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At their best? Maybe. Although I'd argue OV's best is a notch above. In terms of amount of games at their best, it certainly is a sizable difference. That said, I'd have no qualms if someone has Bure in their top-10. I guess it speaks more to the strength and diversity of Russian/Soviet players when Pavel Bure is not a must addition to your top-10.

I think it speaks to the emphasis most people put on longevity
 

Kshahdoo

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Mar 23, 2008
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My list would look something like this.

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Ovechkin
4. Firsov
5. Kharlamov
6. Malkin
7. Tretiak
8. Fedorov
9. Maltsev
10. Mikhailov

I have 3 tiers on my top 10 list in which I could see myself ranking the players in pretty much any order.

Tier 1. Makarov/Fetisov/Ovechkin
Tier 2. Firsov/Kharlamov/Malkin/Tretiak
Tier 3. Fedorov/Maltsev/Mikhailov

More or less, but I'd take Mikhailov before Maltsev and Fedorov. Mikhailov was kinda like Phil Esposito. Wasn't the flashiest player on the ice, but always scored goals.
 

Plural

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Crazy how Dats and Bure don't fit in most top-10 lists here. Other than Canada, is there a country that can afford to leave two players of that caliber out of their top-10 list?

Edit: I'll just answer myself, no there is not.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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Maybe. But if we line up the best 5 full seasons from OV and Bure, what do you wager the difference would be like?

Again, I think you need to factor in quality of linemates

Ovechkin routinely played with all-stars, whereas the same can't be said for Bure

Look at Bure's 2001 season for example. 59 goals, 92 points in 82 games - the runner-up on the Panthers' that season had only 37 points!
 

Plural

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Again, I think you need to factor in quality of linemates

Ovechkin routinely played with all-stars, whereas the same can't be said for Bure

Look at Bure's 2001 season for example. 59 goals, 92 points in 82 games - the runner-up on the Panthers' that season had only 37 points!

I also remember Bure from that year. He was the epitome of cherry picker. Not that I blame him, that team needed him to score. It also leaves out the fact that Kozlov only played 51 games and Sillinger played 55 games. Ovechkin scored 112 points and 65 goals when the next closest player (who played 82 games) had 69 points. 05-06 Ovechkin scored 106 points when next closest was at 57 points.

I don't see it.
 

Caser

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We had a similar thread in Russian part of the forum about the Top10 all-time, that was my opinion:


Every era has it's own "heroes":

The Beginnings: Bobrov
60s: Firsov
70s: Kharlamov, Tretyak
80s: Fetisov, Makarov
NHL era: Fedorov, Bure
Post-2004: Ovechkin, Malkin

Good enough for the top 10, imo.


If I extend that to Top15, Datsyuk, Krutov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Petrov would probably be there.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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I also remember Bure from that year. He was the epitome of cherry picker. Not that I blame him, that team needed him to score. It also leaves out the fact that Kozlov only played 51 games and Sillinger played 55 games. Ovechkin scored 112 points and 65 goals when the next closest player (who played 82 games) had 69 points. 05-06 Ovechkin scored 106 points when next closest was at 57 points.

I don't see it.

Let's keep injuries in mind as well

Bure had seasons in his prime where he only played 11 and 15 games respectively

From '95 - '99, Bure played a total of 215 games over those 5 seasons

So how many times did Bure take to the ice at 100%? Who knows?

None of this is to say that Bure is better than Ovechkin or even his equal, but if you want to give Ovechkin a score of 10/10 as a goal scorer, I think Bure is right there at a 9.5 or better
 

Plural

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Let's keep injuries in mind as well

Bure had seasons in his prime where he only played 11 and 15 games respectively

From '95 - '99, Bure played a total of 215 games over those 5 seasons

So how many times did Bure take to the ice at 100%? Who knows?

None of this is to say that Bure is better than Ovechkin or even his equal, but if you want to give Ovechkin a score of 10/10 as a goal scorer, I think Bure is right there at a 9.5 or better

I respectfully disagree. If we give Ovechkin a 9.5 (I'm reluctant to put anyone at 10) for me Bure is more in the 8.5-9.0 territory with Bossy and Esposito.
 

Batis

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Crazy how Dats and Bure don't fit in most top-10 lists here. Other than Canada, is there a country that can afford to leave two players of that caliber out of their top-10 list?

Edit: I'll just answer myself, no there is not.

The amount of great players produced by the Soviet Union/Russia gets even more impressive when we consider how relatively late they took up playing the sport as well (first league season in 46/47 and first international tournament in 1954). Going from being complete newbies in the sport to playing even with the best the NHL had to offer in about 25 years is in my opinion the most impressive example of development in hockey history. Sure having such a strong bandy culture obviously helped but still pretty incredible.
 
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Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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I respectfully disagree. If we give Ovechkin a 9.5 (I'm reluctant to put anyone at 10) for me Bure is more in the 8.5-9.0 territory with Bossy and Esposito.

The agreed upon difference is still just .5, give or take
 

Plural

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The agreed upon difference is still just .5, give or take

That I can agree with. It's not that OV is immensely better, I just think he's clearly better. Normally you'd get a few spot difference in country all-time list between them. It's just that Russia/Soviet Union is so incredibly strong. The fact that Bure is sometimes almost 10 spots away from OV doesn't mean there's an ocean between them.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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The amount of great players produced by the Soviet Union/Russia gets even more impressive when we consider how relatively late they took up playing the sport as well (first league season in 46/47 and first international tournament in 1954). Going from being complete newbies in the sport to playing even with the best the NHL had to offer in about 25 years is in my opinion the most impressive example of development in hockey history. Sure having such a strong bandy culture obviously helped but still pretty incredible.

Absolutely. But there is something to be said about their very organized national team development.
 

Namba 17

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May 9, 2011
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1. Makarov
2. Tretiak
3. Fetisov
4. Ovechkin
5. Mikhailov
6. Petrov
7. Malkin
8. Krutov
9. Firsov
10. Kharlamov

11. Vasiliev
12. Bure
13. Starshinov
14. Maltsev
15-16. Datsyuk
15-16. Fedorov
17. V. Aleksandrov
18. A. Yakushev
19. Shalimov
20. Kasatonov

21. Kovalchuk
22. Sologubov
23. Bobrov
24. B. Mayorov
25. Vikulov
26. Loktev
27. Larionov
28. Almetov
29. Ragulin
30. Kapustin
 

Namba 17

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May 9, 2011
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I forgot to add Balderis. If you count him as Russian, he should be right after Petrov.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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1. Makarov
2. Tretiak
3. Fetisov
4. Ovechkin
5. Mikhailov
6. Petrov
7. Malkin
8. Krutov
9. Firsov
10. Kharlamov

11. Vasiliev
12. Bure
13. Starshinov
14. Maltsev
15-16. Datsyuk
15-16. Fedorov
17. V. Aleksandrov
18. A. Yakushev
19. Shalimov
20. Kasatonov

21. Kovalchuk
22. Sologubov
23. Bobrov
24. B. Mayorov
25. Vikulov
26. Loktev
27. Larionov
28. Almetov
29. Ragulin
30. Kapustin

No Mogilny?
 

MaxV

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Nov 6, 2006
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New York, NY
This is my shot:

1. V. Fetisov (D)
2. S. Makarov (W)
3. V. Kharlamov (W)
4. A. Firsov (W/C)
5. A. Ovechkin (W)
6. V. Tretiak (G)
7. E. Malkin (C)
8. B. Mikhailov (W)
9. S. Fedorov (C)
10. V. Petrov (C)
11. V. Bobrov (W)
12. P. Datsyuk (C)
13. P. Bure (W)
14. V. Krutov (W)
15. V. Alexandrov (W)
16. V. Vasiliev (D)
17. A. Maltsev (C/W)
18. A. Kasatonov (D)
19. A. Yakushev (W)
20. I. Kovalchuk (W)
21. N. Sologubov (D)
22. S. Zubov (D)
23. A. Mogilny (W)
24. A. Ragulin (D)
25. A. Kovalev (W)
26. I. Larionov (C)
27. V. Starshinov (C)
28. V. Vikulov (W)
29. S. Gonchar (D)
30. S. Kapustin (W)
 

MaxV

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
4,888
590
New York, NY
nothing except for offence.

This is reputation and Russian forward stereotype, not reality.

Mogilny was not Bure. Actually Bure wasn’t Bure defensively, at least not early in his career.

Actually there are a few things that people assume about Mogilny that aren’t true. The biggest being that he only played at his best during his contract seasons. While he did have 1 “bounce back” season later in his career during contract season, that was more due to injuries then anything else.
 

Namba 17

Registered User
May 9, 2011
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543
I don't think Balderis himself would appreciate being counted as a Russian.
I'm not sure. From what I read from his interviews, he, probably, would've been smb like Kasparaitis or Zhitnik and played for Russia without any problems. He neither had any issues with Russians, nor sounded like nationalist.
I'd never listed, say, Irbe, as Russian, because he always underlined that he is not Russian and never wanted to play for Russia.
 
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Namba 17

Registered User
May 9, 2011
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543
This is reputation and Russian forward stereotype, not reality.

Mogilny was not Bure. Actually Bure wasn’t Bure defensively, at least not early in his career.

Actually there are a few things that people assume about Mogilny that aren’t true. The biggest being that he only played at his best during his contract seasons. While he did have 1 “bounce back” season later in his career during contract season, that was more due to injuries then anything else.
Sometimes stereotypes correspond to reality:) In case of Mogilny at least, I believe.
Bure was defensively responsible in his early days, so, no problems here.
 

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