Greatest Russian hockey players regardless of league?

[Sentinel]

I think Bure can match Ovechkin in overall offensive output. He was a better playmaker (not that he ever had anybody to make plays to) and had a higher IQ. Ovechkin is just stronger: both in body and in shot. Defensively I take Bure over Ovechkin. Overall I think Bure had one of the most unfortunate careers of them all.

 

[Boxscore]

My top five are in stone for me.

1. Tretiak
2. Fetisov
3. Makarov
4. Ovechkin
5. Kharlamov

 

[Batis]

Let's keep injuries in mind as well

Bure had seasons in his prime where he only played 11 and 15 games respectively

Correct me if I am wrong about this but I seem to remember that Bures absence during most of the 98/99 season was due to him holding out for a trade rather than an injury.

 

[Neutrinos]

Correct me if I am wrong about this but I seem to remember that Bures absence during most of the 98/99 season was due to him holding out for a trade rather than an injury.

Yeah, you might be right

Still though, he retired having played just 702 games

 

[MaxV]

Longevity is a factor that needs to be considered also imo, not just peak.

Sure Bure had an awesome peak, but I don’t see a case for him over OV. Better performance in best-on-best international, maybe? That’s just one factor.

Keep in mind, there have actually been a lot of Russian players that had great peak, but just fell apart. Yashin is certainly one. Konstantinov is another. Zhamnov, B. Alexandrov, Zimin, Semin, Afinogenov, Yushkevich, I don’t see how you can put any of these guys among the top.

 

[Neutrinos]

Longevity is a factor that needs to be considered also imo, not just peak.

Sure Bure had an awesome peak, but I don’t see a case for him over OV. Better performance in best-on-best international, maybe? That’s just one factor.

Keep in mind, there have actually been a lot of Russian players that had great peak, but just fell apart. Yashin is certainly one. Konstantinov is another. Zhamnov, B. Alexandrov, Zimin, Semin, Afinogenov, Yushkevich, I don’t see how you can put any of these guys among the top.

Bure lead the NHL in goals 3 times and is 5th all-time in GPG - one spot ahead of Ovechkin

Bure's game didn't fall apart, his body did. There's a difference

Nobody leaves Bobby Orr off a top 10 list because he didn't play 15+ seasons

 

[Boxscore]

Nobody leaves Bobby Orr off a top 10 list because he didn't play 15+ seasons

True. But Bobby Orr was the greatest player in hockey history at his position, if not overall. He won Harts, Art Rosses, 8 consecutive Norris trophies, 2 Cups over a short career.

I like Bure a lot but there's no comparison. Bure is more comparable to Cam Neely than Bobby Orr.

 

[Neutrinos]

True. But Bobby Orr was the greatest player in hockey history at his position, if not overall. He won Harts, Art Rosses, 8 consecutive Norris trophies, 2 Cups over a short career.

I like Bure a lot but there's no comparison. Bure is more comparable to Cam Neely than Bobby Orr.

It doesn't matter who was better, the point remains that Orr played only 657 regular season games in his career, yet nobody holds that against him when it comes to his all-time ranking

The same criteria should apply to Bure - as well as any other player who had their career cut short due to injury

 

[MaxV]

It doesn't matter who was better, the point remains that Orr played only 657 regular season games in his career, yet nobody holds that against him when it comes to his all-time ranking

The same criteria should apply to Bure - as well as any other player who had their career cut short due to injury

Well, Bure certainly belongs among top Russian players. That’s not the argument. It is where would you rank him.

Ovechkin’s peak is kinda decent also, no? Plus he certainly has the longevity.

 

[daver]

Bure lead the NHL in goals 3 times and is 5th all-time in GPG - one spot ahead of Ovechkin

Bure's game didn't fall apart, his body did. There's a difference

Nobody leaves Bobby Orr off a top 10 list because he didn't play 15+ seasons

OV has lead in goals in 7 seasons, and has an Art Ross. He is better.

And noone is taking their career GPG's at face value. Since 2005, there have been thirteen 50 goal scorers other than OV. In 92/93 alone, there were fourteen 50 goal scorers.

Their peaks may be the same, but OV was much more consistent. This seems like another exaggerated "we will never know how good a player was because of injuries" narrative.

 

[Neutrinos]

OV has lead in goals in 7 seasons, and has an Art Ross. He is better.

And noone is taking their career GPG's at face value. Since 2005, there have been thirteen 50 goal scorers other than OV. In 92/93 alone, there were fourteen 50 goal scorers.

Their peaks may be the same, but OV was much more consistent. This seems like another exaggerated "we will never know how good a player was because of injuries" narrative.

My argument is actually the complete opposite of that

 

[Fantomas]

Ovechkin's peak is better than Bure's anyway, so this conversation is immaterial.

 

[Batis]

Considering how high many of the greatest Soviet/Russian players peaked I am not sure if Bure is more than a borderline top 10 player even if we only look at peak performance. Yes Bure was awesome but every player in my top 7 (Makarov, Fetisov, Ovechkin, Firsov, Kharlamov, Malkin and Tretiak) did in my opinion peak somewhat higher than Bure. Then we have other players who also peaked very high like Fedorov, Krutov, Maltsev, Mikhailov and Bobrov etc. Bure is definitely in the conversation but I would not say that he is a surefire top 10 Russian player of all time even when only looking at peak.

 

[Boxscore]

It doesn't matter who was better, the point remains that Orr played only 657 regular season games in his career, yet nobody holds that against him when it comes to his all-time ranking

Yes and no. If Orr had a 16-18 year career, he would likely be the unanimous GOAT. However, a great number of people still consider Gretzky or even Gordie the GOAT. So, one could argue, Orr's short career has indeed played a part in his ranking - I would certainly argue that.

That said, Orr was a demigod and players like Bure were just great. There is a difference. It's like ranking Jimi Hendrix against another awesome guitar player with a short life. Hendrix was just better and will always be recognized as such.

The same criteria should apply to Bure - as well as any other player who had their career cut short due to injury

I think it does. There is a tremendous amount of love on these forums for players like Bure, Forsberg, Lindros, Kariya, Neely, etc. And rightfully so. They were all amazing players who unfortunately had shortened careers.

I've watched Bure's entire career and Ovechkin's as well. I am a bigger "fan" of Bure, but Ovechkin is better and was more dominant, even when comparing both players at their best.

 

[Ivan13]

Taking GPG as something to hang your hat on when arguing in favor of Bure is as dishonest as it gets. He effectively ended his career as a 32-year-old, of course, his GPG will be high on the list as he virtually played no games out of his prime, not to mention that he played in only 71% of the games he could have in his 12-year career, while Ovi played in 94% of his. And yes it's more than fair to hold his health against him, same as with Bobby Orr, if his career hadn't ended prematurely he would have a legit argument for being the best player of all time with Wayne, but he wasn't so he has no shot in such a debate. So yeah, Orr's health does take away from his legacy.

PS

The entire Bure vs Ovi comparison is absurd, you could've made a case for Bure 5 years ago (a poor one at that), but today after Ovi won 5 out of last 6 Richard trophies? Get real. At 32 years of age one guy has two Richard's and the Calder and the other has:

2005-06 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy

2007-08 NHL Art Ross Trophy

2007-08 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

2007-08 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2007-08 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

2008-09 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

2008-09 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2008-09 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

2009-10 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

2012-13 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy

2012-13 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2013-14 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2014-15 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2015-16 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

2017-18 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

OV vs Bure was an interesting debate back in 2008. OV is miles ahead at this point.

 

[Riddum]

Sergei Makarov

 

[Riddum]

I'll bite.

So if Fetisov didn't prove that he was the best or among the best dmen in the world in the 1980s, then how did Kharlamov prove to be one of the best forwards in the 1970s? Actually, Kharlamov couldn't even dominate his Russian peers, neither statistically nor awards-wise (although his pre-1977 Soviet MVP voting record is pretty impressive). Makarov did just that in the 1980s. And Fetisov, although obviously he had less competition on defense.

BTW, were the Canada Cups "B-level international tournaments"? And how about those Super Series games where CSKA and other Russian teams faced NHL teams? Look at the results of the 1985-86 Super Series (6-3 vs the Oilers, 6-1 vs the Habs...), for example. This was the NHL teams playing vs the Russians in the middle of the season, and no problems with chemistry.

For the record, Canada always had better depth and better teams on paper, but there is little doubt that the best Soviet players were pretty much at the same level with the best Canadian players.

I'm a huge fan of Russian hockey but I disagree with the bolded. For example, during the 87 Canada Cup, Gretzky and Lemieux were clearly 2 and 1 notch above the next best player in the world (respectively). Playing with Gretzky helped elevate Lemieux's game to new heights.

Gretzky proved he was the undisputed best in the world. Had Makarov outperformed Gretzky, we would have been able to dispute Gretzky's status.

 

[VMBM]

I'm a huge fan of Russian hockey but I disagree with the bolded. For example, during the 87 Canada Cup, Gretzky and Lemieux were clearly 2 and 1 notch above the next best player in the world (respectively). Playing with Gretzky helped elevate Lemieux's game to new heights.

Gretzky proved he was the undisputed best in the world. Had Makarov outperformed Gretzky, we would have been able to dispute Gretzky's status.

Yes, I agree that players like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Howe are in a class of their own. But I can't see how the thing I said is somehow disputing that.

I mean, are Gretzky, Lemieux etc the only examples of "Canada's best" throughout the decades? There were players like Lafleur, Clarke, Esposito and Potvin who were among Canada's best in their time, and I think the best Russians were at the same level with them.

 

[MaxV]

We’ll never know what kind of NHL careers those guys would have had.

But I HIGHLY doubt that USA would have more HHOFers had both USSR and Czech/Slovak players were allowed to come over. Maybe that’s just me.

Heck, even in the cases of Sweden or Finland, NHL wasn’t taking European hockey seriously before 1972, so there weren’t many non NA players that were getting a shot.

 

[Fire Benning]

Reminder that it's complete garbage that Mikhailov isn't in the hall of fame.

 

[Neutrinos]

The debate was never Ovechkin vs Bure

My point was, the difference between them (at their peak) is minimal, so it doesn't make sense to me that Ovechkin can be ranked in the top 3 by most of you, whereas Bure can't crack the top 10

So the comparison is Bure vs players #4 through #10 on most lists

 

[Neutrinos]

Taking GPG as something to hang your hat on when arguing in favor of Bure is as dishonest as it gets. He effectively ended his career as a 32-year-old, of course, his GPG will be high on the list as he virtually played no games out of his prime, not to mention that he played in only 71% of the games he could have in his 12-year career, while Ovi played in 94% of his. And yes it's more than fair to hold his health against him, same as with Bobby Orr, if his career hadn't ended prematurely he would have a legit argument for being the best player of all time with Wayne, but he wasn't so he has no shot in such a debate. So yeah, Orr's health does take away from his legacy.

PS

The entire Bure vs Ovi comparison is absurd, you could've made a case for Bure 5 years ago (a poor one at that), but today after Ovi won 5 out of last 6 Richard trophies? Get real. At 32 years of age one guy has two Richard's and the Calder and the other has:

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Who was the better player? vs Who had the better career?

Gretzky had the better career, but it's perfectly reasonable to say Orr was the better player


PS
Bure has 3 Richard trophies

 

[canucks4ever]

The debate was never Ovechkin vs Bure

My point was, the difference between them (at their peak) is minimal, so it doesn't make sense to me that Ovechkin can be ranked in the top 3 by most of you, whereas Bure can't crack the top 10

So the comparison is Bure vs players #4 through #10 on most lists

The difference between them at their peak is minimal, really?

 

[Riddum]

Who was the better player? vs Who had the better career?

Gretzky had the better career, but it's perfectly reasonable to say Orr was the better player


PS
Bure has 3 Richard trophies

Bure also faces a lot stiffer competition in the goal scoring department.