Greatest Russian hockey players regardless of league?

[MyDogSparty]

In a list like this (see below) of all-time greatest Russian hockey players where do “NHL Russians” like Bure, Mogilny, Kovalev, Larionov, Nabakov, Khabibulin, Bryzgalov, Bobrovsky, Federov, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Zubov, Gonchar, Konstantinov, Kasparaitis, etc fit in?

1.Tretiak
2.Kharlamov
3.Fetisov
4.Firsov
5.Bobrov
6.Makarov
7.Maltsev
8.Vasiliev
9.Mikhailov
10.Krutov

Click to read more...

 

[Sentinel]

"Federov and Nabakov" is a classic.

But I'll post my list, just for the hell of it:

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Firsov
4. Ovechkin
5. Malkin
6. Fedorov
7. Tretiak
8. Kharlamov
9. Mikhailov
10. Datsyuk

 

[VMBM]

Makarov
Fetisov
Ovechkin
Kharlamov
Firsov
Malkin
Tretiak
Mikhailov
Maltsev
Krutov

 

[smokingwriter]

"Federov and Nabakov" is a classic.

But I'll post my list, just for the hell of it:

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Firsov
4. Ovechkin
5. Malkin
6. Fedorov
7. Tretiak
8. Kharlamov
9. Mikhailov
10. Datsyuk

What do you see as the difference separating Makarov from Fetisov? I believe Fetisov was widely considered the best d-man in the world from (roughly) 1981 to at least 1987 (I know Coffey put up the points in Edmonton, but I think most people felt Fetisov was a more dominant all-around player).

Also, why no Bobrov?

 

[smokingwriter]

In a list like this (see below) of all-time greatest Russian hockey players where do “NHL Russians” like Bure, Mogilny, Kovalev, Larionov, Nabakov, Khabibulin, Bryzgalov, Bobrovsky, Federov, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Zubov, Gonchar, Konstantinov, Kasparaitis, etc fit in?

1.Tretiak
2.Kharlamov
3.Fetisov
4.Firsov
5.Bobrov
6.Makarov
7.Maltsev
8.Vasiliev
9.Mikhailov
10.Krutov

Makarov should be at the top of the list. Well, maybe Fetisov. I've heard some remark that he was over-rated, but I don't believe he was. Saw him against NHL teams in the early 1980s (just as a kid), and he was so much better than many of the players he was competing against that it was actually a bit unsettling. I always saw him as a slightly bigger, more powerful, and more polished - and more consistent - version of Denis Potvin.

Am I wrong about that?

 

[VMBM]

I don't think Coffey was ever Fetisov's main competition for the "best defenseman in the world" title, but rather Denis Potvin (early 1980s) and Ray Bourque (mid-/late-1980s).

Personally, I keep flipping between Makarov and Fetisov, and I don't think you can go wrong with either one at #1. As a kid (in the 1980s), Fetisov seemed a better or at least a more important player to me, and without a doubt I would have chosen him back then. However, later on Makarov has started to look better and better (eye test and when looking more closely at his accomplishments), and on paper he is slightly more impressive and especially more consistent than Fetisov.

 

[Sentinel]

Nine time scoring winner and three time Best Player, while a superb two-way force. You simply cannot beat that. Fetisov was fantastic but he had far smaller competition in the Soviet League / Europe. Makarov had greater competition... and beat it all convincingly.

Bobrov was great...for his era and with his competition. He'd probably be my #11.

 

[VMBM]

Not sure that I would call Makarov a two-way player though. An excellent penalty killer for sure, but a great defensive player...

 

[tony d]

My top 5 Russian hockey players all time would be:

1. Fetisov
2. Ovie
3. Kharlamov
4. Makarov
5. Tretiak

 

[Kshahdoo]

Not sure that I would call Makarov a two-way player though. An excellent penalty killer for sure, but a great defensive player...

Well, when he and his linemates were on the ice, the opposition usually didn't think anything about going forward, so I think it's enough to call him a superb 2-way force.

 

[Killion]

In no particular order..

Tretiak
Kharlamov
Bobrov
Ragulin
Petrov
Mikhailov
Makarov
Bure
Ovechkin
Fedorov

etc...

 

[ck26]

I believe Fetisov was widely considered the best d-man in the world from (roughly) 1981 to at least 1987 (I know Coffey put up the points in Edmonton, but I think most people felt Fetisov was a more dominant all-around player).

Also, why no Bobrov?

Not sure WHAT you're smoking, writer ... but "widely?" Maybe in Moscow, but in the rest of the world, Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin and Ray Bourque all had careers that overlapped Fetisov. Fetisov's skewed / B-level international tournament medals don't weigh more than Norris Trophies.

The only Russian players whose peaks you can argue were at or near "best player in the world" level are Fedorov and Malkin, maybe Kharlamov and maybe Ovechkin (depending on how you value scorers vs all-around players). Malkin has been about as good as Crosby the last 10 years, Fedorov had that crazy Hart + Selke year in the mid-90's.

Russian hockey greatness has always been built on familiarity and a system; thus the apocryphal Tarasov quote about 5 Bobby Hulls. Their national team played together 10 months a year because the Kremlin demanded it. Don't confuse their effectiveness as a team in international competition against less-than-best allstar opposition with "actually being better players" because the Bobrov, Makarov, Maltsev, Mikhailov generations were absolutely not on that level.

Some of those names too ... Nabokov? Kasparitis? LOL

Fedorov, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kharlamov
Fetisov just below them with Tretiak and the rest of the top skaters.

 

[JP Nolan]

Not sure WHAT you're smoking, writer ... but "widely?" Maybe in Moscow, but in the rest of the world, Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin and Ray Bourque all had careers that overlapped Fetisov. Fetisov's skewed / B-level international tournament medals don't weigh more than Norris Trophies.

The only Russian players whose peaks you can argue were at or near "best player in the world" level are Fedorov and Malkin, maybe Kharlamov and maybe Ovechkin (depending on how you value scorers vs all-around players). Malkin has been about as good as Crosby the last 10 years, Fedorov had that crazy Hart + Selke year in the mid-90's.

Russian hockey greatness has always been built on familiarity and a system; thus the apocryphal Tarasov quote about 5 Bobby Hulls. Their national team played together 10 months a year because the Kremlin demanded it. Don't confuse their effectiveness as a team in international competition against less-than-best allstar opposition with "actually being better players" because the Bobrov, Makarov, Maltsev, Mikhailov generations were absolutely not on that level.

Some of those names too ... Nabokov? Kasparitis? LOL

Fedorov, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kharlamov
Fetisov just below them with Tretiak and the rest of the top skaters.

Fetisov was not Bourque or Potvin, But he was better then Robinson.

 

[Killion]

One of the first Russian players who I saw that really impressed me was Defenceman Alexander Ragulin, and not your flashy fleet of foot highly creative prototypical Russian type of Forward or Offensive Defenceman, but a solid anchor on the Blue Line, in his own zone, clearing the front of his net, playing the angles like a Professor, decent upside offensively as he had great vision and moved the puck extremely well. Very cool cucumber. Didnt panic. Methodical. Studied. Quiet. Could be physical but only did so selectively, prudently, no wasted energy. Very smart player.

Not the greatest skater but more than made up for that really rather minute' deficiency given how well he played every other aspect of the game & position. Sometimes called the "Russian Doug Harvey"... also "The Bear" and yes, a lot like Tim Horton in that regard. 6'1" & 220+lbs, legendary strength. He was one guy (there were others) who without question would have been a standout, a star in the NHL during the 06 era on any one of the teams top to bottom. Pushed any number of Hockey Hall of Famers' for a job. No problem stepping right into the NHL, excelling based on what I saw of him over the years. Had a Hell of a career as it was Internationally, in the Soviet Elite League.

 

[Staniowski]

One of the first Russian players who I saw that really impressed me was Defenceman Alexander Ragulin, and not your flashy fleet of foot highly creative prototypical Russian type of Forward or Offensive Defenceman, but a solid anchor on the Blue Line, in his own zone, clearing the front of his net, playing the angles like a Professor, decent upside offensively as he had great vision and moved the puck extremely well. Very cool cucumber. Didnt panic. Methodical. Studied. Quiet. Could be physical but only did so selectively, prudently, no wasted energy. Very smart player.

Not the greatest skater but more than made up for that really rather minute' deficiency given how well he played every other aspect of the game & position. Sometimes called the "Russian Doug Harvey"... also "The Bear" and yes, a lot like Tim Horton in that regard. 6'1" & 220+lbs, legendary strength. He was one guy (there were others) who without question would have been a standout, a star in the NHL during the 06 era on any one of the teams top to bottom. Pushed any number of Hockey Hall of Famers' for a job. No problem stepping right into the NHL, excelling based on what I saw of him over the years. Had a Hell of a career as it was Internationally, in the Soviet Elite League.

Tretiak spoke extremely highly of Ragulin, said he was "the most reliable defenseman in hockey" and "the ideal defenseman".

 

[Killion]

Tretiak spoke extremely highly of Ragulin, said he was "the most reliable defenseman in hockey" and "the ideal defenseman".

... indeed. Finestkind from a Goalies perspective.

 

[Theokritos]

Well, when he and his linemates were on the ice, the opposition usually didn't think anything about going forward, so I think it's enough to call him a superb 2-way force.

That's not how it works. "Two-way" means you play both ways, the offensive route and the defensive route. Being so good offensively that you don't have to play the other way means you're a superb one-way player, but it doesn't make you a two-way player.

And of course, we're talking in abstracts here. As you've mentioned yourself, in reality even a superb offensive line can only keep the opposition bottled ususally, not always. At a high level of competition, you inevitably get some traffic in the direction of your goal and that's when it starts to matter whether you are indeed a two-way player or not.

 

[Theokritos]

Fetisov was not Bourque or Potvin...

Plenty of North American observers in the 1980s thought otherwise. I'm not saying they were necessarily right, but it's certainly not a given they were wrong.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Tretiak
4. Ovechkin
5. Firsov
6. Malkin
7. Kharlamov
8. Krutov
9. Bure
10. Balderis

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Fetisov
Makarov
Ovechkin
Tretiak
Malkin
Kharlamov
Firsov
Mikhailov
Vasiliev
Maltsev

 

[Killion]

1. Makarov
2. Fetisov
3. Tretiak
4. Ovechkin
5. Firsov
6. Malkin
7. Kharlamov
8. Krutov
9. Bure
10. Balderis

You get to pick another Russian. Helmut Balderis is Latvian, Latvia occupied by the Soviets commencing in 1940, Balderis born in 52 & raised in Latvia amongst the Latvian school of players starring for Riga (Coached by Tikhonov) before being given special dispensation, transferred, allowed to play in Moscow & for the National Team much to the chagrin of his fellow Latvian countrymen & players (no love lost whatsoever between Latvians & Russia's former regime). The country received its independence again in 1991....

Helmut as well had Tretriak's number down cold. He noticed that Vladislav was weak, often caught napping on shots from afar, from a distance, so rather than even bothering to expend his energy in taking apart Tretriak's Defencemen & so on he'd just wind up & let er' rip with a slapper or quick release wrister from far out... blowing them right by the guy on numerous occasions if reports are accurate. Too bad the rest of the hockey world didnt know about that... coulda save ourselves a lot of grief. Go for the long range drifters, shock & awe, surprise shots... Vladislavs' havin a nap. Like Cloutier in 2003 vs Detroit.... Brodeur vs the Ducks in 03..... Thomas, Boston vs NJ, 2006... ha? Remember that Mr. Bonvie? Timmie there Whiffing on a dribbler he nonchalantly tried to sweep away? And against Jersey... of all the low life....

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You get to pick another Russian. Helmut Balderis is Latvian, Latvia occupied by the Soviets commencing in 1940, Balderis born in 52 & raised in Latvia amongst the Latvian school of players starring for Riga (Coached by Tikhonov) before being given special dispensation, transferred, allowed to play in Moscow & for the National Team much to the chagrin of his fellow Latvian countrymen & players (no love lost whatsoever between Latvians & Russia's former regime). The country received its independence again in 1991....

Helmut as well had Tretriak's number down cold. He noticed that Vladislav was weak, often caught napping on shots from afar, from a distance, so rather than even bothering to expend his energy in taking apart Tretriak's Defencemen & so on he'd just wind up & let er' rip with a slapper or quick release wrister from far out... blowing them right by the guy on numerous occasions if reports are accurate. Too bad the rest of the hockey world didnt know about that... coulda save ourselves a lot of grief. Go for the long range drifters, shock & awe, surprise shots... Vladislavs' havin a nap. Like Cloutier in 2003 vs Detroit.... Brodeur vs the Ducks in 03..... Thomas, Boston vs NJ, 2006... ha? Remember that Mr. Bonvie? Timmie there Whiffing on a dribbler he nonchalantly tried to sweep away? And against Jersey... of all the low life....

Can I take Petrov instead?

 

[Killion]

Can I take Petrov instead?

... ..................................................... you sure now?.......................................... ......................... DB = Oleg Petrov. Done.

 

[VMBM]

Not sure WHAT you're smoking, writer ... but "widely?" Maybe in Moscow, but in the rest of the world, Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin and Ray Bourque all had careers that overlapped Fetisov. Fetisov's skewed / B-level international tournament medals don't weigh more than Norris Trophies.

The only Russian players whose peaks you can argue were at or near "best player in the world" level are Fedorov and Malkin, maybe Kharlamov and maybe Ovechkin (depending on how you value scorers vs all-around players). Malkin has been about as good as Crosby the last 10 years, Fedorov had that crazy Hart + Selke year in the mid-90's.

Russian hockey greatness has always been built on familiarity and a system; thus the apocryphal Tarasov quote about 5 Bobby Hulls. Their national team played together 10 months a year because the Kremlin demanded it. Don't confuse their effectiveness as a team in international competition against less-than-best allstar opposition with "actually being better players" because the Bobrov, Makarov, Maltsev, Mikhailov generations were absolutely not on that level.

Some of those names too ... Nabokov? Kasparitis? LOL

Fedorov, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kharlamov
Fetisov just below them with Tretiak and the rest of the top skaters.

I'll bite.

So if Fetisov didn't prove that he was the best or among the best dmen in the world in the 1980s, then how did Kharlamov prove to be one of the best forwards in the 1970s? Actually, Kharlamov couldn't even dominate his Russian peers, neither statistically nor awards-wise (although his pre-1977 Soviet MVP voting record is pretty impressive). Makarov did just that in the 1980s. And Fetisov, although obviously he had less competition on defense.

BTW, were the Canada Cups "B-level international tournaments"? And how about those Super Series games where CSKA and other Russian teams faced NHL teams? Look at the results of the 1985-86 Super Series (6-3 vs the Oilers, 6-1 vs the Habs...), for example. This was the NHL teams playing vs the Russians in the middle of the season, and no problems with chemistry.

For the record, Canada always had better depth and better teams on paper, but there is little doubt that the best Soviet players were pretty much at the same level with the best Canadian players.

 

[VMBM]

Tretiak spoke extremely highly of Ragulin, said he was "the most reliable defenseman in hockey" and "the ideal defenseman".

He certainly was extraordinarily strong. And famous for his long opening passes (like Fetisov later on). Got quite a lot of critique especially in the early 1970s along with the rest of the Russian defensive corps, but hey, Tretiak should know better...