Gostisbehere Vs Rielly

[whitstifier]

no, it has nothing to do with coach bias.

Ghost being used against much softer competition means he would put up significantly better numbers than Rielly if he was as good as him, but in reality Rielly is actually putting up better possession numbers and comparable offensive numbers.

Ghost looks good in the same way that Shattenkirk looked good and Justin Schultz looked good a couple years ago.

Nothing to do with bias? I guess we're just supposed to ignore your Hakstol comment?

You have a way with hyperbole

Make a real argument that addresses Gostisbehere's numbers with minutes against top competition in the past ~40 games.

 

[zeke]

Nothing to do with bias? I guess we're just supposed to ignore your Hakstol comment?

You have a way with hyperbole

Make a real argument that addresses Gostisbehere's numbers with minutes against top competition in the past ~40 games.

what was my hakstol comment? that criticizing his defensive deployment is silly when the flyers are one of the best even strength defensive teams in the league?

and i've laid out the argument as clearly as possible.

 

[whitstifier]

what was my hakstol comment? that criticizing his defensive deployment is silly when the flyers are one of the best even strength defensive teams in the league?

and i've laid out the argument as clearly as possible.

"The fact that he doesn't trust Ghost more than Manning should be something we pay attention to."

Nice appeal to authority.

You have yet to address Gostisbehere's strong numbers against top competition this season...

 

[zeke]

"The fact that he doesn't trust Ghost more than Manning should be something we pay attention to."

Nice appeal to authority.

you guys brought it up. i pointed out that hakstol's defensive decisions have resulted in one of the best defensive teams in hockey at even strength.

You have yet to address Gostisbehere's strong numbers against top competition this season...

I showed clearly that a) he hasn't faced strong competition and b) he hasn't put up particularly strong numbers against his competition.

 

[Face Of Bear]

IMO Leafs would be a worse team if they did a 1-for-1 swap they'd be a worse team and Philly would be better.

 

[whitstifier]

you guys brought it up. i pointed out that hakstol's defensive decisions have resulted in one of the best defensive teams in hockey at even strength.

I showed clearly that a) he hasn't faced strong competition and b) he hasn't put up particularly strong numbers against his competition.

Are you being willfully ignorant?

Your deference to Hakstol is misplaced. Own it.

Gostisbehere absolutely has put up strong numbers against top competition as evidenced by his production with Provorov.

 

[zeke]

Are you being willfully ignorant?

Your deference to Hakstol is misplaced. Own it.

I'm not deferring to Hakstol. You guys brought him up.

Hakstol's decisions have nothing to do with the numbers being used here.

Gostisbehere absolutely has put up strong numbers against top competition as evidenced by his production with Provorov.

But he hasn't. His quality of competition this year is very low for a top-4 dman, and his possession numbers are only good, not great, in those soft top 4 minutes. Even in his time with provorov, his competition has only been average, not strong, as Appleyard calculated. Like I said, very similar to guys like shattenkirk and schultz in previous years.

 

[mja]

It's been long lost I suppose in the post purges and forum switches over the years, but I distinctly recall getting into an extended argument with zeke probably exactly a decade ago where he pulled a million and one stats out of his ass in order to argue that Alex Steen was a better player than Jeff Carter, and that Jeff Carter wasn't going to be a consistent 30 goal scorer. This brings a smile to my face. I expect a decade hence remembering zeke's offerings in this thread will bring a similar smile.

 

[whitstifier]

I'm not deferring to Hakstol. You guys brought him up.

Hakstol's decisions have nothing to do with the numbers being used here.



But he hasn't. His quality of competition this year is very low for a top-4 dman, and his possession numbers are only good, not great, in those soft top 4 minutes. Even in his time with provorov, his competition has only been average, not strong, as Appleyard calculated. Like I said, very similar to guys like shattenkirk and schultz in previous years.

You literally deferred to Hakstol...

You've unintentionally answered my question about willful ignorance

 

[zeke]

It's been long lost I suppose in the post purges and forum switches over the years, but I distinctly recall getting into an extended argument with zeke probably exactly a decade ago where he pulled a million and one stats out of his ass in order to argue that Alex Steen was a better player than Jeff Carter, and that Jeff Carter wasn't going to be a consistent 30 goal scorer. This brings a smile to my face. I expect a decade hence remembering zeke's offerings in this thread will bring a similar smile.

you remember wrong. as usual, it was flyers fans saying how much better their guy was than the leafs guy.

And as it turns out, I was right, as Steen and Carter have had similarly great careers in the end.

 

[zeke]

You literally deferred to Hakstol...

You've unintentionally answered my question about willful ignorance

Hakstol was brought up as an excuse for Ghost. I pointed out that it was a) a poor excuse and b) an irrelevant excuse.

None of my arguments need to defer to hakstol on anything.

but continue to be willfully ignorant if you must.

 

[Adtar02]

you guys brought it up. i pointed out that hakstol's defensive decisions have resulted in one of the best defensive teams in hockey at even strength.



I showed clearly that a) he hasn't faced strong competition and b) he hasn't put up particularly strong numbers against his competition.

And has been stated and ignored by you repeatedly. Ghost has too seasons. The second half he has face tougher comp. not as tough as Reilly due to Hak rolling his pairs more evenly than babs

And yes ghost is significantly out producing Reilly this season.

 

[zeke]

And has been stated and ignored by you repeatedly. Ghost has too seasons. The second half he has face tougher comp. not as tough as Reilly due to Hak rolling his pairs more evenly than babs

You guys can't keep saying that I'm ignoring stuff, when I answer it, and you guys ignore it.

Again, Ghost' overall quality of competion this year is low-end top-4 quality of competion. As Appleyard showed, he's been up to about average top-4 comp since he's moved up with Provorov, which means he was well below average before that. And in that overall competition so far this year, his possession numbers are only good, not great.

The fact is Ghost' raw numbers look comparably to many of the best dmen in the league right now, like barrie and shattenkirk and schultz in previous years, but he simply doesn't play the kind of tough minutes that the top dmen in the league play.

Ghost isn't near as good as Provorov, for example, even though all these rawnumbers say he is. Ghost' usage makes him much more easily comparable to a guy like Gardiner on the leafs, not Rielly. Well, closer to Jake last year, not his tougher usage this year, but still, closer.

And yes ghost is significantly out producing Reilly this season.

Mostly due to getting near double the PP time.

Even strength:

Rielly: 1.03 pts per 60min, 0.80 primary points per 60
Ghost: 1.22 pts per 60 min, 0.70 primary points per 60

Power Play

Rielly: 6.7o pts per 60min, 2.68 primary points per 60
Ghost: 6.41pts per 60min, 3.34 primary points per 60

But here's the thing - if you want to say that Ghost is a bit better offensively, I won't argue with you.

But he most likely can't, and never will, play the kind of tough minutes that Rielly gets, and is thriving in.

 

[mja]

you remember wrong. as usual, it was flyers fans saying how much better their guy was than the leafs guy.

And as it turns out, I was right, as Steen and Carter have had similarly great careers in the end.

See, here's what I love about you. Any poster with even the slightest amount of sense would have denied that such an exchange ever took place, but not you. No, you double down.

Carter: 887 GP 342 G 314 A 656 P
Steen: 881 GP 226 G 345 A 571 P

# of 30+ goals seasons from Carter, who I recall you arguing wasn't going to be a consistent 30 goal scorer: 4, plus he paced for 30 G per 82 GP in 3 other seasons (and it could be 4 albeit in extremely limited action this season).
# of 30+ goal seasons from Steen, who I recall you arguing was just as good of a goal-scorer as Carter: 1, and he's never paced for 30 G per 82 GP in any other season.

Yep, totally similar. But maybe you meant playoffs?

Carter: 116 GP 39 G 35 A 74 P
Steen: 61 GP 13 G 18 A 31 P

Carter is likely going to break 400 G and could conceivably have a shot at 500. Steen may not even get to 300.

I mean, this is Carter with the dreaded AINEC. Do I really need to make a poll on the question? It would be closed by the end of the afternoon.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

See, here's what I love about you. Any poster with even the slightest amount of sense would have denied that such an exchange ever took place, but not you. No, you double down.

Carter: 887 GP 342 G 314 A 656 P
Steen: 881 GP 226 G 345 A 571 P

# of 30+ goals seasons from Carter, who I recall you arguing wasn't going to be a consistent 30 goal scorer: 4, plus he paced for 30 G per 82 GP in 3 other seasons (and it could be 4 albeit in extremely limited action this season).
# of 30+ goal seasons from Steen, who I recall you arguing was just as good of a goal-scorer as Carter: 1, and he's never paced for 30 G per 82 GP in any other season.

Yep, totally similar. But maybe you meant playoffs?

Carter: 116 GP 39 G 35 A 74 P
Steen: 61 GP 13 G 18 A 31 P

Carter is likely going to break 400 G and could conceivably have a shot at 500. Steen may not even get to 300.

I mean, this is Carter with the dreaded AINEC. Do I really need to make a poll on the question? It would be closed by the end of the afternoon.

What's the relevance of this?

 

[zeke]

See, here's what I love about you. Any poster with even the slightest amount of sense would have denied that such an exchange ever took place, but not you. No, you double down.

Carter: 887 GP 342 G 314 A 656 P
Steen: 881 GP 226 G 345 A 571 P

# of 30+ goals seasons from Carter, who I recall you arguing wasn't going to be a consistent 30 goal scorer: 4, plus he paced for 30 G per 82 GP in 3 other seasons (and it could be 4 albeit in extremely limited action this season).
# of 30+ goal seasons from Steen, who I recall you arguing was just as good of a goal-scorer as Carter: 1, and he's never paced for 30 G per 82 GP in any other season.

Yep, totally similar. But maybe you meant playoffs?

Carter: 116 GP 39 G 35 A 74 P
Steen: 61 GP 13 G 18 A 31 P

Carter is likely going to break 400 G and could conceivably have a shot at 500. Steen may not even get to 300.

I mean, this is Carter with the dreaded AINEC. Do I really need to make a poll on the question? It would be closed by the end of the afternoon.

Let's be real - you looked up all those numbers and then gulped a bit at how close they actually were, eh?

All that time spent a decade ago mocking leaf fans for daring to compare their 24th overall pick to your 11th overall pick.....and in the end one turns out to be a career 60pt pace 2 way player and the other a 55pt pace 2 way player.

I'm surprsied you're enjoying the taste of all that egg on your face so much.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Let's be real - you looked up all those numbers and then gulped a bit at how close they actually were, eh?

All that time spent a decade ago mocking leaf fans for daring to compare their 24th overall pick to your 11th overall pick.....and in the end one turns out to be a career 60pt pace 2 way player and the other a 55pt pace 2 way player.

I'm surprsied you're enjoying the taste of all that egg on your face so much.

They are pretty far apart. Carter has 110+ more goals than Steen. That is very sizable.

 

[Sasso09]

You guys can't keep saying that I'm ignoring stuff, when I answer it, and you guys ignore it.

Again, Ghost' overall quality of competion this year is low-end top-4 quality of competion. As Appleyard showed, he's been up to about average top-4 comp since he's moved up with Provorov, which means he was well below average before that. And in that overall competition so far this year, his possession numbers are only good, not great.

The fact is Ghost' raw numbers look comparably to many of the best dmen in the league right now, like barrie and shattenkirk and schultz in previous years, but he simply doesn't play the kind of tough minutes that the top dmen in the league play.

Ghost isn't near as good as Provorov, for example, even though all these rawnumbers say he is. Ghost' usage makes him much more easily comparable to a guy like Gardiner on the leafs, not Rielly. Well, closer to Jake last year, not his tougher usage this year, but still, closer.



Mostly due to getting near double the PP time.

Even strength:

Rielly: 1.03 pts per 60min, 0.80 primary points per 60
Ghost: 1.22 pts per 60 min, 0.70 primary points per 60

Power Play

Rielly: 6.7o pts per 60min, 2.68 primary points per 60
Ghost: 6.41pts per 60min, 3.34 primary points per 60

But here's the thing - if you want to say that Ghost is a bit better offensively, I won't argue with you.

But he most likely can't, and never will, play the kind of tough minutes that Rielly gets, and is thriving in.

Thriving? It's spelled Drowning.

 

[Sasso09]

T

Let's be real - you looked up all those numbers and then gulped a bit at how close they actually were, eh?

All that time spent a decade ago mocking leaf fans for daring to compare their 24th overall pick to your 11th overall pick.....and in the end one turns out to be a career 60pt pace 2 way player and the other a 55pt pace 2 way player.

I'm surprsied you're enjoying the taste of all that egg on your face so much.

Triple down Zeke, TRIPLE

 

[zeke]

It's a fun comp, really. Unfortunatle corsica only goes back to 2007, so cuts lff the 1st 2yrs of their careers, but here goes since the 07/08 season:

Steen: 719gms, EV 14:17 (A qoc), 1.77p60, 52.9cf% (+1.7rel), 52.4xgf% (+1.5rel) / PP 2:41, 4.60p60 / PK 1:45
Carter: 742gms, EV 14:18 (A qoc), 2.05p60, 52.9cf% (+0.6rel), 53.3xgf% (+1.5rel) / PP 2:49, 4.87p60 / PK 1:37

Damn that's as close as it gets, Carter a tick better offensively, Steen a tick better possession, all under extremely, extremely similar usage.

 

[Ainec]

op failed to include slavin in this for a 3 way slug fest

 

[zeke]

Thriving? It's spelled Drowning.

Putting up better possession numbers than any ofnthe Flyers top 4, in MUCH tougher minutes, is the opposite of drowning.

 

[zeke]

op failed to include slavin in this for a 3 way slug fest

At least Slavin actually gets legit #1 usage and competition, making a raw numbers comp to Rielly actually relevant.

 

[Ainec]

now waiting for whiskey to do the daily search on slavin

 

[whitstifier]

I'm in awe how someone legit thinks they're the smartest person in the room when their shitty arguments rely on primarily on QoC.

It's embarrassing