zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
- 66,937
- 36,957
This season, Ghost has been better than Provorov and Rielly.
Doesn't look like it to me.
This season, Ghost has been better than Provorov and Rielly.
That's because you're zekeDoesn't look like it to me.
Doesn't look like it to me.
Only in your world does it 'not look like' a defenseman who has more points and half the on-ice goals conceded has been better.
Can I ask, what is your experience level in the game of hockey?Only in your world does it 'not look like' a defenseman who has more points and half the on-ice goals conceded has been better.
Can I ask, what is your experience level in the game of hockey?
I know that if you ever sat down with a coach or scout to give analysis or breakdown of two d men, you’d be laughed at for saying “well, one guy has more points and better goals against per 60”... That’s a foot note, not the body of any comparison.
Some of you have been pretty embarrassing in here and you don’t even realize it because apparently it’s more fun to attack Zeke about something he might have said 10 years ago..
I don’t know, nor is it relevant. I’m not assessing anyone beyond their credibility on the topic.Am I a Scotsman? Pls say yes
Can I ask, what is your experience level in the game of hockey?
I know that if you ever sat down with a coach or scout to give analysis or breakdown of two d men, you’d be laughed at for saying “well, one guy has more points and better goals against per 60”... That’s a foot note, not the body of any comparison.
Some of you have been pretty embarrassing in here and you don’t even realize it because apparently it’s more fun to attack Zeke about something he might have said 10 years ago..
Update
Zone/Score adjusted stats, from corsica.
Even Strength
Rielly (23): 61gms, 18:13 (A qoc), 1.01p/60, 0.79p1/60, 51.5cf% (+2.9rel), 50.4xgf% (+0.1rel)
Ghost (24): 62gms, 17:45 (B qoc), 1.18p/60, 0.67p1/60, 50.7xgf% (+2.0rel), 52.3xgf% (+2.8rel)
Special Teams
Rielly (23): PP 2:15, 6.63p/60, 2.65p1/60 / PK 1:15
Ghost (24): PP 3:43, 6.24p/60, 3.26p1/60 / PK 0:04
Again bud, Ghost has had two halves to his year. One with garbage on the second line and one with Provorov on the top. Is it possible for you to break them apart since the switch?
I ask because I really can't be bothered myself in all honesty.
Ghost has passed the eye test, the points test and the goals against test.
I wouldn't use the ES/GA stat unless it was literally half of Rielly's either. Overall, we're all a little bias but some with less budge than others. There's not a world apart by any means, but there's not an argument to the contrary in my eyes. Corsi is all well and good, but results and actual quantifiable stats actually do count.
There was a bunch of talk about the split back around page 11. Provorov and Ghost together still don't face anywhere near the competition that Rielly and Hainsey get. Rielly is 7th in the league in terms of TOIqoc, Hainsey is 1st. Ghost and Provorov together I think was 29.15, which is about equivalent to what Jake Gardiner gets (29.12). Rielly is at 29.63. Even on the first pair, Ghost's usage is still considerably below Rielly's.Again bud, Ghost has had two halves to his year. One with garbage on the second line and one with Provorov on the top. Is it possible for you to break them apart since the switch?
I ask because I really can't be bothered myself in all honesty.
Update
Zone/Score adjusted stats, from corsica.
Even Strength
Rielly (23): 61gms, 18:13 (A qoc), 1.01p/60, 0.79p1/60, 51.5cf% (+2.9rel), 50.4xgf% (+0.1rel)
Ghost (24): 62gms, 17:45 (B qoc), 1.18p/60, 0.67p1/60, 50.7xgf% (+2.0rel), 52.3xgf% (+2.8rel)
Special Teams
Rielly (23): PP 2:15, 6.63p/60, 2.65p1/60 / PK 1:15
Ghost (24): PP 3:43, 6.24p/60, 3.26p1/60 / PK 0:04
That last part wasn’t really directed at you as much as those who brought up/carried on a comparison from 10 years ago in attempt to discredit someone.I've not 'attacked' Zeke about anything he's said outside of this thread. I've not really attacked him at all, so less hyperbole please.
Ghost has passed the eye test, the points test and the goals against test. I wouldn't use the ES/GA stat unless it was literally half of Rielly's either. Overall, we're all a little bias but some with less budge than others. There's not a world apart by any means, but there's not an argument to the contrary in my eyes. Corsi is all well and good, but results and actual quantifiable stats actually do count.
^^^^now look how many of those "lesser" guys are top 5 in D scoring, 1st in PP scoring, and top 17 in ES scoring.
It's so bizarre to see an elite scoring Dman who ALSO does not allow goals against, get ripped for his defense.
In the end, who cares. Flyers fans know how good Ghost has been WHILE ON THE TOP PAIRING. He has put to rest the whole PP specialist arguments but some just are late to the party.
@Appleyard might have up to date info. on the pairing since they have been together. Not sure.
The competition comparison is particularly interesting when you consider which individual players/lines are considered the toughest.The point is that better GA numbers don't actually mean that one player is better than the other. It's great to say that Ghost has good GA/60 numbers this year, but that alone doesn't make him better than Rielly defensively. The entire Flyers d core, including everyone's favourite AMac have good GA numbers. Clearly you don't think AMac is better defensively than Ekblad, so we need more analysis.
What is frustrating about this post and a lot of the others over the last page is that it is assuming a negative opinion of Ghost. Maybe I'm missing some subtext or something, but the notion of "Ghost doesn't play against top competition but Rielly (and Provorov) does" doesn't actually imply that Ghost is bad at defense. It is fine to say that one guy is good but the other guy is better. I can agree with you in saying that he has been good on the top pairing and that he has put the idea of "PP specialist" to rest. But in the next breath I can tell you that Rielly has played against tougher competition all season and put up outstanding numbers, so I find his total package to be more impressive. Those thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
Appleyard posted the data about the Ghost/Provorov pairing, including their corsi, GF/GA numbers, and TOIqoc on pages 10 and 11. There was more discussion about it there if you were interested. The data indicated that Provorov and Ghost have been excellent on the top pair, but their QoC numbers are still nowhere near Rielly's. You have one guy who does a little bit better versus weaker competition and you have one guy who does a little bit worse against stronger competition.
get back to me with your thoughts when his on-ice SV% normalizes next year.
The best I can do?
You literally went back over a decade to try and call me out.....using an example of a comp which I turned to be right on.
that's fantastic.
The point is that better GA numbers don't actually mean that one player is better than the other. It's great to say that Ghost has good GA/60 numbers this year, but that alone doesn't make him better than Rielly defensively. The entire Flyers d core, including everyone's favourite AMac have good GA numbers. Clearly you don't think AMac is better defensively than Ekblad, so we need more analysis.
What is frustrating about this post and a lot of the others over the last page is that it is assuming a negative opinion of Ghost. Maybe I'm missing some subtext or something, but the notion of "Ghost doesn't play against top competition but Rielly (and Provorov) does" doesn't actually imply that Ghost is bad at defense. It is fine to say that one guy is good but the other guy is better. I can agree with you in saying that he has been good on the top pairing and that he has put the idea of "PP specialist" to rest. But in the next breath I can tell you that Rielly has played against tougher competition all season and put up outstanding numbers, so I find his total package to be more impressive. Those thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
Appleyard posted the data about the Ghost/Provorov pairing, including their corsi, GF/GA numbers, and TOIqoc on pages 10 and 11. There was more discussion about it there if you are interested. The data indicated that Provorov and Ghost have been excellent on the top pair, but their QoC numbers are still nowhere near Rielly's. You have one guy who does a little bit better versus weaker competition and you have one guy who does a little bit worse against stronger competition.
Still no good way to measure QoC. Looking at toiqoc with relative stats can lead somewhere, but you can't really use it to directly compare players. There hasn't been enough discussion here about the holes of the metric. On its own, toiqoc is worthless
ZS used to be the rage here, but it turned out that it doesn't indicate usage or performance particularly well.
What stats would you suggest then? Raw numbers or even numbers/60 have their own flaws, since GA/60 indicates Macdonald is a top20 defenseman in the league. I'm not an expert in TOIqoc so I'm not overly familiar with it's strengths and weaknesses, but as with any numbers, it's fair to look at them and notice differences between the players. No number tells the whole story, but I think we can consider what it tells us in reasonably good faith. We can't draw conclusions on it alone, but it's a perfectly good starting point. Even zone starts are useful in their own right. If you have a guy who's getting 65% Ozone starts and the rest of the team's D are getting numbers closer to 50, that tells a story. Ghost's own zone start numbers mirror his progression pretty well, from a sheltered offensive guy to a guy who's trusted on the first pair with Provorov. In this thread we've looked at just about every number under the sun in comparing Ghost and Rielly. TOIqoc is an important part of looking at Rielly's numbers, considering that Babcock is a matchup minded coach and Rielly ranks 7th in the metric for the entire league. TOIqoc is less important for Ghost, since Flyers fans seem to be almost unanimous in declaring Hakstol an idiot. But that doesn't change that there's a significant disparity in their numbers, so it's worth looking at and including in the discussion.