Goals vs secondary assists

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

This thread is chock full of Oilers fans who have it out for 93LEAFS, and The Winter Soldier so not sure what you expected. Hell, many of the first few responses are simply "McDavid is better than Matthews" instead of answering the question and they're all liked by the same individuals that sweet sweet hivemind

 

[Dustin]

imagine a world where you celebrate a goal before you score,

thats the world i want to live in.

shout out owen nolan circa 97

That would be like some kind of minority report for hockey.

 

[biotk]

Here is a novel idea. If 2nd assists are so easy to achieve. Why don't more inferior players get them. They are available for all players. All I see in the list of 2nd assists leaders for the NHL last season are really good players.

If you look at the top ten in primary assists vs the top ten in secondary assists there is very little overlap. For instance over the last 8 seasons only 17 times a player has been in the top 10 in both, compared to 155 times that a player appeared in the top 1o in one, but not the other. Secondary assists are more a measure of the quality of the teammates on the ice with you, and your PP time, as well as if the powerplay is built around you.

That most of this thread is simply people reacting based on their love of McDavid and their hatred of the Leafs/Matthews, is especially stupid considering that McDavid is 3rd in primary assists this season, and tied for 28th in secondary assists, along with being first in primary assists last year and 4th in secondary.

 

[McNuge]

Which assist achievements? What achievements is in line with 50 in 50 or a hat trick? Do fans participate at all when a player hits a specific amount of assists in a game?

As for the Hart, just to be clear you are stating that it is impossible to win it without an assist? If a player let's say scored 150 goals this year but had no assists but led the league in points and led his team to the playoffs you are saying he wouldn't win because he didn't have any assists? Is it possible? Seems like you should give Bettman a call and let them know they need an assist trophy and secondary assist trophy too.

Either way this "discussion" has clearly gone as far as it's going to go. You believe that secondary assists are as important as goals. Super.

Clearly I have stated that it depends on the play. Sometimes it is more important and sometimes it is less important...

Care to explain why the players the league perceives as the top players are also the ones with the most secondary assists?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

If you look at the top ten in primary assists vs the top ten in secondary assists there is very little overlap. For instance over the last 8 seasons only 17 times a player has been in the top 10 in both, compared to 155 times that a player appeared in the top 1o in one, but not the other. Secondary assists are more a measure of the quality of the teammates on the ice with you, and your PP time, as well as if the powerplay is built around you.

Well McDavid is #1 in 1st assists. So the narrative created here that 2nd assists do not matter as much for McDavid's case to marginalize him is silly. So that is that.

And I see you have edited. I disgree with the card you played. The people reacting here are we have had 48 hours of bogus arguments here made to try to lower McDavid to Matthews level, since no argument can be made to lift Matthews to McDavid's level. This is the reaction. As most posters reasonable or not know they are not comparable. McDavid has always been a tier higher, no amount of counting 2nd assists or whatever will change this.

 

[biotk]

Well McDavid is #1 in 1st assists. So the narrative created here that 2nd assists do not matter as much for McDavid's case to marginalize him is silly. So that is that.

I edited my post as you were posting this.

 

[daver]

I ask this question though. The biggest tilter of the ice in the NHL over the past 5 years has been Patrice Bergeron (just look at his possession stats). Then why is someone who tilts the ice less in Claude Giroux ahead of him in total points (the primary reasons are secondary assists and powerplay time). Bergeron would actually rank higher in primary points than total ones when compared to the rest of the league. So, I don't completely buy that its primarily tilting the ice. Its a factor, but not a huge one.

Being an exceptional defensive player doesn't mean you tilt the ice to the offensive zone. Another red herring.

 

[Dustin]

Clearly I have stated that it depends on the play. Sometimes it is more important and sometimes it is less important...

Care to explain why the players the league perceives as the top players are also the ones with the most secondary assists?

Because the best players in the league are generally the best at amassing points. Are you suggesting that the only metric to determine if a players is the best in the league is by secondary assists?

I've not seen a single argument in here that suggests total points isn't a good indicator of who the best players in the league are. And yes any player that leads the league in points should have amassed quite a few secondary assists. That still doesn't change the fact that goals are more important than secondary assists.

Again we obviously have different opinions so what is the point? Here's the most basic point I can give. Goals will always determine who the winner is in every game ever played. The same can't be said for assists.

 

[rent free]

a goal is worth much more than a secondary assist

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Being an exceptional defensive player doesn't mean you tilt the ice to the offensive zone. Another red herring.

but he does tilt the ice like that?

 

[JaegerDice]

Goals and secondary assists are equal in value.

The issue with secondary assists is that they're not as sustainable as goals year over year.

A player's goal-scoring the previous year, or 3 years, or 5 years will give you at least some idea of what to expect from them in terms of goal production in the present or near future.

Secondary assists tend to vary wildly season over season.

So if a player, hypothetically won the Art Ross on the basis of a huge number of secondary assists, then good for him. Those points are in no way less valuable. It is, however, less likely that he will be challenging for an Art Ross again on the basis of similar secondary assist production.

 

[McNuge]

If you look at the top ten in primary assists vs the top ten in secondary assists there is very little overlap. For instance over the last 8 seasons only 17 times a player has been in the top 10 in both, compared to 155 times that a player appeared in the top 1o in one, but not the other. Secondary assists are more a measure of the quality of the teammates on the ice with you, and your PP time, as well as if the powerplay is built around you.

That most of this thread is simply people reacting based on their love of McDavid and their hatred of the Leafs/Matthews, is especially stupid considering that McDavid is 3rd in primary assists this season, and tied for 28th in secondary assists, along with being first in primary assists last year and 4th in secondary.

Can you link where you found this? Seems like a good reference tool.

 

[93LEAFS]

Being an exceptional defensive player doesn't mean you tilt the ice to the offensive zone. Another red herring.

He has the best possession numbers in the league, he tilts the ice. That isn't a red herring.

If dominating shot attemps for and against at 5v5 isn't tilting the ice, I don't know what is.

 

[biotk]

Can you link where you found this? Seems like a good reference tool.

I don't think there is a place that displays the information in top 10s. I went to "Natural Stat Trick" and did the leg work going back each season.

 

[93LEAFS]

Goals and secondary assists are equal in value.

The issue with secondary assists is that they're not as sustainable as goals year over year.

A player's goal-scoring the previous year, or 3 years, or 5 years will give you at least some idea of what to expect from them in terms of goal production in the present or near future.

Secondary assists tend to vary wildly season over season.

So if a player, hypothetically won the Art Ross on the basis of a huge number of secondary assists, then good for him. Those points are in no way less valuable. It is, however, less likely that he will be challenging for an Art Ross again on the basis of similar secondary assist production.

In player evaluation though, which one would you emphasize more, going by your answer it would be the goal production.

 

[daver]

If you look at the top ten in primary assists vs the top ten in secondary assists there is very little overlap. For instance over the last 8 seasons only 17 times a player has been in the top 10 in both, compared to 155 times that a player appeared in the top 1o in one, but not the other. Secondary assists are more a measure of the quality of the teammates on the ice with you, and your PP time, as well as if the powerplay is built around you.

Do this for forwards only, or just centres.

Here is a stat: NHL.com - Stats

From 2013/14 to today here are the the Top Ten 1A Centres (with their placing in 2As):

1. Getzlaf (9th)
2. Seguin (26th)
3. Crosby (4th)
4. Backstrom (1st)
5. Thornton (3rd)
6. Tavares (19th)
7. Zetterberg (13th)
8. Malkin (15th)
9. Kopitar (6th)
10. Johansen (8th)

Six of the Top Ten are in the Top Ten in 2As and only one player (Seguin) is out of the Top 20.

Seems to be a very strong connection between centers who get 1As and 2As.

 

[McNuge]

Because the best players in the league are generally the best at amassing points. Are you suggesting that the only metric to determine if a players is the best in the league is by secondary assists?

I've not seen a single argument in here that suggests total points isn't a good indicator of who the best players in the league are. And yes any player that leads the league in points should have amassed quite a few secondary assists. That still doesn't change the fact that goals are more important than secondary assists.

Again we obviously have different opinions so what is the point? Here's the most basic point I can give. Goals will always determine who the winner is in every game ever played. The same can't be said for assists.

Clearly it is a difference of opinion, and that's fine. If you look at raw point totals then I would agree with you that a goal is more important, but I personally hate looking at raw point totals. I look at how a play develops and what factors affect the goal being scored. Which is why I have said it depends. Hockey is such a dynamic sport, where a player can get credit for a goal simply by having it bounce off his butt. Is that player the most important player on the play? Not likely, but he got in a good position.

 

[LeafGrief]

Looks like staying out of the McDavid vs Matthews thread was a good idea... Clearly a lot of turd slinging going on over there.

 

[JaegerDice]

In player evaluation though, which one would you emphasize more, going by your answer it would be the goal production.

Yes, for overall player evaluation and projection, I'd go with primary points (G+1A) over 2nd assists. Especially for forwards.

But for basic, current, single-season performance evaluation, I don't view them as any less valuable. Especially from a defensemen in a league where transition plays into rush-plays create a ton of chances and goals.

This is assuming we're only evaluating production and not overall impact, for which there are much better metrics.

 

[daver]

Because the best players in the league are generally the best at amassing points. Are you suggesting that the only metric to determine if a players is the best in the league is by secondary assists?

I've not seen a single argument in here that suggests total points isn't a good indicator of who the best players in the league are. And yes any player that leads the league in points should have amassed quite a few secondary assists. That still doesn't change the fact that goals are more important than secondary assists.

Again we obviously have different opinions so what is the point? Here's the most basic point I can give. Goals will always determine who the winner is in every game ever played. The same can't be said for assists.

93LEAFs!!! Where are you?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He has the best possession numbers in the league, he tilts the ice. That isn't a red herring.

If dominating shot attemps for and against at 5v5 isn't tilting the ice, I don't know what is.

Bergeron also plays and has played on strong corsi teams. He plays with Marchand also. McDavid played with Maroon last year. I don't think this is a particularly compelling example. Corsi is a team stat compiled by 5 v 5. It is almost impossible to make an apples to apples comparison. For someone that is quoting stats as much as you are in the past 48 hours, I would think you would have mentioned this also.

 

[Dustin]

93LEAFs!!! Where are you?

Not in here he hasn't. I'm well aware of the other thread that I avoid at all costs as it is basically the Mos Eisley of HF but in this thread we are talking specifically about goals vs 2nd assists.

Edit: Also hasn't he said multiple times that he believes McDavid is the superior player?

 

[BruinLVGA]

To me they're perfectly the same. If there isn't one (an assist, whether primary or secondary, and a goal), there isn't the other. It's like trying to argue who's more important at conception, the guy or the girl.

 

[Haatley]

Each are worth one point.

 

[93LEAFS]

Not in here he hasn't. I'm well aware of the other thread that I avoid at all costs as it is basically the Mos Eisley of HF but in this thread we are talking specifically about goals vs 2nd assists.

Edit: Also hasn't he said multiple times that he believes McDavid is the superior player?

I've said multiple times, its a decent indicator, but far from the best, and shouldn't be used as the main source of comparison. You should look at a bunch of factors in totality.

And to be honest, I don't think it'd be a better indicator than just looking at primary points outright in a similar manner. Especially when comparing forwards.