Goals vs secondary assists

[93LEAFS]

For average players goals are more important.

But generational players tilt the ice in their favour - they score a large amount of secondary assists because of this.

I ask this question though. The biggest tilter of the ice in the NHL over the past 5 years has been Patrice Bergeron (just look at his possession stats). Then why is someone who tilts the ice less in Claude Giroux ahead of him in total points (the primary reasons are secondary assists and powerplay time). Bergeron would actually rank higher in primary points than total ones when compared to the rest of the league. So, I don't completely buy that its primarily tilting the ice. Its a factor, but not a huge one.

Looking at cf% raw and p/60 and p1/60, I don't really see how it plays a big difference in secondary assists. I'd say the biggest driver is oiSH%. For example, Palat has one of the biggest deviations between primary points and secondary points. He's not a great possession player, its driven by the high-shooting percentage of teammates). Jamie Benn is another good (but not great possession player) possession player who heavily benefits from secondary assists. This is of course at 5V5, as the ice is tilted on the PP automatically.

 

[Dustin]

Lol, yes the clear answer is it depends. Sometimes it is the goal scorer and sometimes it is the primary assist or secondary assist that set the play up. If goals were worth more then players would be getting more points for them, but they aren't. Goal = 1 point, 1 primary assist = 1 point, and 1 secondary assist = 1 point.

Lol. A certain fanbase is afraid of their player being inferior in anyway to a lesser player. So much so they can't even respond to an obvious poll in fear that it will reflect poorly on their player. Lol

 

[McNuge]

Lol. A certain fanbase is afraid of their player being inferior in anyway to a lesser player. So much so they can't even respond to an obvious poll in fear that it will reflect poorly on their player. Lol

Nope, you just can't accept that people don't agree with you.

I also love the bolded... And it should be pretty obvious why.

 

[Dustin]

Nope, you just can't accept that people don't agree with you.

I also love the bolded... And it should be pretty obvious why.

I can accept that just fine. All of the people in this thread have stated that it depends. That's not an option nor is it accurate. It has been stated that the poll is about on average.

Why didn't you bold the part where I said lesser player? Again stop yelling this thread is about an agenda when you have clearly brought your own agenda in as well?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I did the math, a secondary assist should award you exactly 0,683 points assuming a goal is 1 point. However if it's a nice looking goal you should be able to get up to 3 points from one goal.

Here is a novel idea. If 2nd assists are so easy to achieve. Why don't more inferior players get them. They are available for all players. All I see in the list of 2nd assists leaders for the NHL last season are really good players. IE Backstrom, Karlsson, Keith, Hedman, Getzlaf. Ect...Maybe the the answer is they are good, and not all players are capable of being good playmakers as McDavid. With Matthews current career high of 29 assists. And wingers still struggling to score with him 5V5in the case of Nylander 2 straight years. There is no doubt when you factor in how a player impacts his linemates. McDavid is on a different tier than Matthews. And this gives him a big edge in a player comparison.

 

[McNuge]

I can accept that just fine. All of the people in this thread have stated that it depends. That's not an option nor is it accurate. It has been stated that the poll is about on average.

Why didn't you bold the part where I said lesser player? Again stop yelling this thread is about an agenda when you have clearly brought your own agenda in as well?

What is my agenda? That I think each play that leads to a goal is different, with different circumstances?

How is not an opinion? Do you know what an opinion is? How is it not accurate when it is an opinion?

Your opinion is that a goal is more important than an assist, yet you've failed to say why.

Also I don't need to bold the lesser player part because it does nothing for the argument... It was funny because that is what HFLeafs is all about.

 

[7even]

I’m not interested at all in the McDavid vs Matthews squabble but I find it hard to disagree that the average goal is worth more than the average secondary assist.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Assists = 1.000 points
Goals = 1.225 points

If you apply that, it's a little more in line with how people rank forwards IMO. Here's the top 50 forwards from last year with adjusted point totals.

PLAYER	G	A	PTS	Adjusted	RK
Connor McDavid, C	30	70	100	107	-
Sidney Crosby, C	44	45	89	99	-
Patrick Kane, RW	34	55	89	97	-1
Nikita Kucherov, RW	40	45	85	94	1
Brad Marchand, LW	39	46	85	94	1
Nicklas Backstrom, C	23	63	86	91	-2
Mark Scheifele, C	32	50	82	89	-
Vladimir Tarasenko, RW	39	36	75	84	1
Leon Draisaitl, C	29	48	77	84	-
Artemi Panarin, LW	31	43	74	81	-
Blake Wheeler, RW	26	48	74	80	-1
Evgeni Malkin, C	33	39	72	79	1
Auston Matthews, C	40	29	69	78	4
Tyler Seguin, C	26	46	72	78	-
David Pastrnak, LW	34	36	70	78	2
Alex Ovechkin, LW	33	36	69	76	1
Ryan Getzlaf, C	15	58	73	76	-4
Phil Kessel, RW	23	47	70	75	-3
Max Pacioretty, LW	35	32	67	75	5
Jamie Benn, LW	26	43	69	75	-1
Mikael Granlund, C	26	43	69	75	-1
Joe Pavelski, C	29	39	68	75	3
Jeff Carter, C	32	34	66	73	1
John Tavares, C	28	38	66	72	-
Patrik Laine, RW	36	28	64	72	3
Henrik Zetterberg, LW	17	51	68	72	-3
Jeff Skinner, LW	37	26	63	71	2
Eric Staal, C	28	37	65	71	-1
Cam Atkinson, RW	35	27	62	70	1
Nikolaj Ehlers, LW	25	39	64	70	-2
James van Riemsdyk, LW	29	33	62	69	-1
Nazem Kadri, C	32	29	61	68	-
Viktor Arvidsson, RW	31	30	61	68	-
Mike Hoffman, LW	26	35	61	67	-2
William Nylander, RW	22	39	61	66	-3
Jakub Voracek, RW	20	41	61	66	-3
Mitch Marner, C	19	42	61	65	-5
Johnny Gaudreau, LW	18	43	61	65	-5
Filip Forsberg, LW	31	27	58	65	6
Ryan Johansen, C	14	47	61	64	-8
Sean Monahan, C	27	31	58	64	3
Marcus Johansson, C	24	34	58	63	1
Evgeny Kuznetsov, C	19	40	59	63	-2
Ryan Kesler, C	22	36	58	63	1
Jonathan Toews, C	21	37	58	63	1
Jack Eichel, C	24	33	57	62	4
Mats Zuccarello, RW	15	44	59	62	-5
Mikko Koivu, C	18	40	58	62	-3
Alexander Wennberg, C	13	46	59	62	-5
Claude Giroux, LW	14	44	58	61	-7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

On an individual basis, 1.225 and 1.000 is the same (1). It's only really in bunches that goals start to make up some ground. Everyone would rather have a 30+20 guy over a 9+41 guy and this type of thinking explains that. It's not perfect, but I think it mostly applies as long as it's not forwards vs defencemen.

 

[Dustin]

What is my agenda? That I think each play that leads to a goal is different, with different circumstances?

How is not an opinion? Do you know what an opinion is? How is it not accurate when it is an opinion?

Your opinion is that a goal is more important than an assist, yet you've failed to say why.

Also I don't need to bold the lesser player part because it does nothing for the argument... It was funny because that is what HFLeafs is all about.

What opinion? You have stated it depends. That's not an option. I and many other have stayed why a goal is worth more, including arguments such as there is always a goal but not always an assist or that even the league tracks goal scoring and certain goal scoring achievements more than assists.

What is your argument for secondary assists being as important as goal scoring. That they are each worth 1 point. That is all. Oh and of course the argument that it depends on the play.

 

[93LEAFS]

Assists = 1.000 points
Goals = 1.225 points

If you apply that, it's a little more in line with how people rank forwards IMO. Here's the top 50 forwards from last year with adjusted point totals.

PLAYER	G	A	PTS	Adjusted	RK
Connor McDavid, C	30	70	100	107	-
Sidney Crosby, C	44	45	89	99	-
Patrick Kane, RW	34	55	89	97	-1
Nikita Kucherov, RW	40	45	85	94	1
Brad Marchand, LW	39	46	85	94	1
Nicklas Backstrom, C	23	63	86	91	-2
Mark Scheifele, C	32	50	82	89	-
Vladimir Tarasenko, RW	39	36	75	84	1
Leon Draisaitl, C	29	48	77	84	-
Artemi Panarin, LW	31	43	74	81	-
Blake Wheeler, RW	26	48	74	80	-1
Evgeni Malkin, C	33	39	72	79	1
Auston Matthews, C	40	29	69	78	4
Tyler Seguin, C	26	46	72	78	-
David Pastrnak, LW	34	36	70	78	2
Alex Ovechkin, LW	33	36	69	76	1
Ryan Getzlaf, C	15	58	73	76	-4
Phil Kessel, RW	23	47	70	75	-3
Max Pacioretty, LW	35	32	67	75	5
Jamie Benn, LW	26	43	69	75	-1
Mikael Granlund, C	26	43	69	75	-1
Joe Pavelski, C	29	39	68	75	3
Jeff Carter, C	32	34	66	73	1
John Tavares, C	28	38	66	72	-
Patrik Laine, RW	36	28	64	72	3
Henrik Zetterberg, LW	17	51	68	72	-3
Jeff Skinner, LW	37	26	63	71	2
Eric Staal, C	28	37	65	71	-1
Cam Atkinson, RW	35	27	62	70	1
Nikolaj Ehlers, LW	25	39	64	70	-2
James van Riemsdyk, LW	29	33	62	69	-1
Nazem Kadri, C	32	29	61	68	-
Viktor Arvidsson, RW	31	30	61	68	-
Mike Hoffman, LW	26	35	61	67	-2
William Nylander, RW	22	39	61	66	-3
Jakub Voracek, RW	20	41	61	66	-3
Mitch Marner, C	19	42	61	65	-5
Johnny Gaudreau, LW	18	43	61	65	-5
Filip Forsberg, LW	31	27	58	65	6
Ryan Johansen, C	14	47	61	64	-8
Sean Monahan, C	27	31	58	64	3
Marcus Johansson, C	24	34	58	63	1
Evgeny Kuznetsov, C	19	40	59	63	-2
Ryan Kesler, C	22	36	58	63	1
Jonathan Toews, C	21	37	58	63	1
Jack Eichel, C	24	33	57	62	4
Mats Zuccarello, RW	15	44	59	62	-5
Mikko Koivu, C	18	40	58	62	-3
Alexander Wennberg, C	13	46	59	62	-5
Claude Giroux, LW	14	44	58	61	-7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

On an individual basis, 1.225 and 1.000 is the same (1). It's only really in bunches that goals start to make up some ground. Everyone would rather have a 30+20 guy over a 9+41 guy and this type of thinking explains that. It's not perfect, but I think it mostly applies as long as it's not forwards vs defencemen.

What happens though if you assume a primary assist is worth exactly one, and you take the difference for the goal (.225) and take that from the secondary assist (so .775).

 

[McNuge]

What opinion? You have stated it depends. That's not an option. I and many other have stayed why a goal is worth more, including arguments such as there is always a goal but not always an assist or that even the league tracks goal scoring and certain goal scoring achievements more than assists.

What is your argument for secondary assists being as important as goal scoring. That they are each worth 1 point. That is all. Oh and of course the argument that it depends on the play.

Pretty sure assists count for points towards the Hart do they not? Seems like a pretty major award to me. If secondary assists were not worth as much how come they still count for 1 point? I think you should give Bettman a call and give him a piece of your mind.

The league also tracks assist achievements. So I don't know how you are using that as an argument.

Yes it is 100% dependent on the play in respect to who is the most impactful player in setting up the goal.

 

[KevinRedkey]

What happens though if you assume a primary assist is worth exactly one, and you take the difference for the goal (.225) and take that from the secondary assist (so .775).

Some assist are better than goals and vice versa. Some primary ones are better or worse than secondary ones. It's impossible to really judge it. But if the question is "are goals more valuable than assists?" then I think the answer is yes but not individually. I've never really considered primary vs secondary to be a factor honestly.

 

[93LEAFS]

Pretty sure assists count for points towards the Hart do they not? Seems like a pretty major award to me. If secondary assists were not worth as much how come they still count for 1 point? I think you should give Bettman a call and give him a piece of your mind.

The league also tracks assist achievements. So I don't know how you are using that as an argument.

Yes it is 100% dependent on the play in respect to who is the most impactful player in setting up the goal.

I think you mean the Art Ross.

 

[snipes]

Personally, I think a secondary assist should get you a penalty. Need that **** out of the game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Goals are more valuable than assists in the thought that goals are the tiebreakers if points are equal. Otherwise, they're equal value. A goal counts for 1 goal, and an assist on a goal only counts for 1 goal.

 

[McNuge]

I think you mean the Art Ross.

Yes sorry, that is what I meant, Thank you.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

personally i see it as faceoff win>hits>takeaways>breakout passes>secondary assist>GWG>GTG>opening Goal>Primary assist> Goal

retweet if you agree

 

[Dustin]

Pretty sure assists count for points towards the Hart do they not? Seems like a pretty major award to me. If secondary assists were not worth as much how come they still count for 1 point? I think you should give Bettman a call and give him a piece of your mind.

The league also tracks assist achievements. So I don't know how you are using that as an argument.

Yes it is 100% dependent on the play in respect to who is the most impactful player in setting up the goal.

Which assist achievements? What achievements is in line with 50 in 50 or a hat trick? Do fans participate at all when a player hits a specific amount of assists in a game?

As for the Hart, just to be clear you are stating that it is impossible to win it without an assist? If a player let's say scored 150 goals this year but had no assists but led the league in points and led his team to the playoffs you are saying he wouldn't win because he didn't have any assists? Is it possible? Seems like you should give Bettman a call and let them know they need an assist trophy and secondary assist trophy too.

Either way this "discussion" has clearly gone as far as it's going to go. You believe that secondary assists are as important as goals. Super.

 

[oXo Cube]

personally i see it as faceoff win>hits>takeaways>breakout passes>secondary assist>GWG>GTG>opening Goal>Primary assist> Goal

retweet if you agree

You forgot about loose puck retrievals per 60 mins.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

You forgot about loose puck retrievals per 60 mins.

true but that is obviously #1 any hockey fan knows that

 

[Finnished]

nvm pointless

 

[Gurilla]

Obviously goals are more important but when you have more assists than the other guy had points it's not even worth debating.

 

[Dustin]

personally i see it as faceoff win>hits>takeaways>breakout passes>secondary assist>GWG>GTG>opening Goal>Primary assist> Goal

retweet if you agree

You forgot goal celebration which obviously comes before goal.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yes sorry, that is what I meant, Thank you.

No worries. No one is perfect. Look at The poll question. Equal is misspelled. Maybe a goal is not eqaul to a secondary assist as there is no such word as eqaul.

Is a goal eqaul to a secondary assist

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

You forgot goal celebration which obviously comes before goal.

imagine a world where you celebrate a goal before you score,

thats the world i want to live in.

shout out owen nolan circa 97