Give GMJR a Grade (cumulative)

[IcedCapp]

The Despres did have a profound effect on the team last season and it will continue to for the next few seasons at least.

Your second paragraph is almost more off-base than your first. Despres is a rare defensemen. How many young, 6'4 215 lb dmen who are physical, skate extremely well and excell at moving the puck do you think there are in this league?

The rarity of his skill set is part of why the trade is so awful. Teams spend forever searching for guys like that, and we just threw him away. The real kicker is that he is EXACTLY what our current group of dmen is missing.

Despres' skill set aside, it is simply horrendous asset management to trade a 23 year old, cost controlled top-4, possibly top pairing dman, for a 31 year-old who is a worse hockey player in nearly every measurable way on a worse contract.

Can you name me five recent trades equal or worse? I'll help you out with Forsberg for Erat. Maybe the Hamilton trade, but even with how poor the return was at least they got something with slight value in return.


I like a lot of what Rutherford has done, but I strongly disagree with your metric of judging him.

New month just started, man. New month just started.

Did you know Vivica A. Fox is the new face of the Psychic Friends Network?

 

[Ugene Magic]

[*Devastating*] - Was losing Letang at the wrong side of the TDL to another cheap-shot. Even not doing the Winnik trade doesn't make up for 7.250 in dead cap space.<<<<That was devastating to the Pens season and created the end of the season fiasco. There was Ehrhoff, and losing Maatta to cancer/shoulder surgery.[/*Devastating*]

 

[Coastal Kev]

It means if the two worst trades were trades that had no profound effect on the Penguins, we should consider ourselves lucky.

The Despres trade was not a good one, I agree, but one of the worst in recent history? Don't get me wrong, I liked Despres, but it wasn't like he was some rare dman that can't be replaced. Me thinks you value Despres a little too high.

When the GM states on the day of the trade that "this trade will keep getting worse the longer time goes by", It's an all time bad trade.

With any of the other trades that turned out bad for the Pens, you could at least argue at the time they were made that there was some hope for the return back to the Pens. With the Despres trade, it was terrible on the day of the trade and will only get worse with time.

So yes, it is probably the worse trade in Pens history (reread second paragraph before you snarky comment)

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Despres stuff...

It just never ends.

I doubt that anyone here disagrees that the Despres trade was horrible.

I think that was the consensus at the moment that it was made.

What I can say is if you take the aggregate of work since JR got here he has received more value, and value that fits together making us a better team, than he gave away. Even spotting against him one really horrid trade and a couple of meh ones.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Its old and slow. And that was exposed in the playoffs. Hawks and Leafs made the Bruins look silly with their skill and speed.

Im saying he didnt do a good enough job. Im not one to call the guy an awful GM. He wasnt. He left us a Cup and two potential cornerstone D-men. But he just didnt do near a good enough job with the forwards.

It's no slower than our current line-up. And the current line-up hasn't shown how it will fare in the playoffs (I guess doing better than the EC Finals is the standard for not being exposed), so I don't see how a comparison can be made there.

That line-up is proof positive that Shero provided quality wings before the '13-'14 rollback. He wasn't able to land a Kessel (not for lack of trying), but he absolutely went after quality wings when he had the space and they were available.

Well Shero chose to hire and re-sign a moron coach that had Jokinen a healthy scratch/4th liner and Iginla on left with with Geno, and Dupuis riding shotgun.

Admittedly, MJ could do the same thing and I would give JR **** if he chose to re-sign him after that.

Player usage aside, acquiring Morrow and Iginla was overkill and Murray trade was a waste of assets. I appreciate the "all in" try, but it was misguided. Too much was added that contributed to a slower, older team. It just didn't work out.

MJ did do the same thing by moving better wingers around to accommodate Kunitz in the middle of a **** streak a mile wide.

The point I'm making in this thread is that Shero went after scoring wings when they could be had, so saying that acquiring so many wings was "overkill" does nothing but support that. You can dispute the wisdom of some of those trades (Morrow), but you can't deny that he went after highly-sought wings.

agreed. he had his faults (DB, stall/toews) but won a cup and was in contention for another in 2012. who knows what could have been if we got the goaltending we saw last year during the "5 years he ran the team into the ground".
that was a big piece to the puzzle that went missing in the playoffs every year, at a moderate to high cost on the Cap.
I wouldnt be shocked to see him successful again with his new team

As far as JR. he's had a terrific off season. But it doesnt completely make up for some questionable moves in his 1st year.
let's hope it continues

Absolutely.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

if they hadn't gave away fatty for nothing, they would of been good to go.

No one will disagree with the awful Des trade, but there's pretty good evidence that the move wasn't JRs choice.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I'm not sure what this means. This statement seems to imply that those trades aren't that bad. If it was just the Winnik trade, that's one thing. The Despres trade is one of the worst trades in recent history.

Those were bad moves, but they're on par (or better) than the Murray and Morrow deals.

 

[plaidchuck]

The organization didn't like despres period. Apparently the last straw was when he was late to a flight last year from being hungover, they were trying to move him since then. Still dont know why they just gave up on him instead of working on it.

Bottom line is he was gone this year regardless of the coach or gm.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Those were bad moves, but they're on par (or better) than the Murray and Morrow deals.

Eh. Murray was worse than Winnik. Despres was worse than Morrow. With the Morrow trade at least the thought process, while misguided, made sense. B. Morrow was actually playing some pretty damn good hockey for us before he shattered his knee cap.

 

[tom_servo]

Even if there's a good reason Despres was traded, then why Lovejoy?

 

[plaidchuck]

I actually liked what morrow and murray brought to the table, I just didn't like what the pens gave up, especially the picks.

 

[Pete Gas]

Iginla was fine, Murray and Morrow were not needed.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

After the season ended but before the Kessel trade, most of this board was hoping JR gets fired (along with MJ) but knew it was unrealistic to change the front office after just 1 season. Now after 2 trades he's considered a genius.

JR's moves were good on paper but they backfired in reality. For example:
-1st for Perron made sense on paper but Perron didn't score a single goal in the last 1 or 2 months.
- Draft picks for Winnik made sense on paper despite being an ovepayment. Winnik was invisible and useless, and we reallllly need more high draft picks and prospects.
-Neal for Horny and Spaling made sense because Horny is the type of player we wanted/needed for the playoffs, however Horny's production will never come close to matching Neal's production here. Spaling sucks and was given an outrageous contract for a vanilla 4th liner.
-Despres for Lovejoy, nothing more needs to be said.
-Ehrhoff was a great signing at the time because he was supposed to be a solid,cheap replacement for Niskanen in the top 4. He was bad here and always injured.
-coaching staff (who was hired by JR) coached the team to their worst finish since 2006. PP was inept. PK was the only thing working.

JR also left this team with an awful D core outside of 2 guys, and probably the worst prospect pool in the league.

On the plus side I really like the quality and depth of the forwards. Hopefully they will help Sid and Geno reach their early 20's peak production and level of play. This is the most stacked the forward group has been since 2013 post TDL.

Nope.

You whole argument is basically "hindsight in 20/20". JR should have totally foreseen the rash or injuries that would happen in the last month of the season and tanked for McEichel!

 

[DawgPens]

Even if there's a good reason Despres was traded, then why Lovejoy?

Yeah, that's the real issue. I like Despres, and wish he were still on the team, but the really frustrating thing is who they got back in exchange. Mr. 10-of-11-on-ice goals Lovejoy. The Pens were always going to trade at least one of Harrington, Pouliot, Matta, and Despres, but the return for Elmer was awful.

 

[Penguinator]

Yeah, that's the real issue. I like Despres, and wish he were still on the team, but the really frustrating thing is who they got back in exchange. Mr. 10-of-11-on-ice goals Lovejoy. The Pens were always going to trade at least one of Harrington, Pouliot, Matta, and Despres, but the return for Elmer was awful.

I think it was 8-of-11 but yeah, he did suck on a 2nd pair...

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It's no slower than our current line-up. And the current line-up hasn't shown how it will fare in the playoffs (I guess doing better than the EC Finals is the standard for not being exposed), so I don't see how a comparison can be made there.

That line-up is proof positive that Shero provided quality wings before the '13-'14 rollback. He wasn't able to land a Kessel (not for lack of trying), but he absolutely went after quality wings when he had the space and they were available.



MJ did do the same thing by moving better wingers around to accommodate Kunitz in the middle of a **** streak a mile wide.

The point I'm making in this thread is that Shero went after scoring wings when they could be had, so saying that acquiring so many wings was "overkill" does nothing but support that. You can dispute the wisdom of some of those trades (Morrow), but you can't deny that he went after highly-sought wings.



Absolutely.

********. It took JR a year to get Perron and Kessel plus signing a high upside Russian winger from the KHL, because he made getting elite wingers a priority.

Shero was fine with getting a winger as long as he was a no risk perfect match, which is why Sid and Geno had to play with at least one anchor on their wing the majority of their careers.

 

[Shady Machine]

MJ did do the same thing by moving better wingers around to accommodate Kunitz in the middle of a **** streak a mile wide.

The point I'm making in this thread is that Shero went after scoring wings when they could be had, so saying that acquiring so many wings was "overkill" does nothing but support that. You can dispute the wisdom of some of those trades (Morrow), but you can't deny that he went after highly-sought wings.

Really? Who better than Iginla did MJ move out of place to accommodate Kunitz?

Anyway, your point is fair, but I still disagree. JR did in 2 offseasons what Ray Shero never did. He acquired 2 legitimate top 6 wingers, one elite, that are the same age as our core.

The problem with Shero is he prioritized the wrong things for this roster. He prioritized precious cap space to defense and 3rd line centers. Can you imagine if we had signed Staal to a 10 year 6MM per contract? Who the hell would play next to Sid and Geno?

JR has correctly built strength down the middle and set Sid and Geno up for success with the wingers they need. That should have always been priority number 1. For Shero, it was priority 3 or later.

 

[Shady Machine]

The organization didn't like despres period. Apparently the last straw was when he was late to a flight last year from being hungover, they were trying to move him since then. Still dont know why they just gave up on him instead of working on it.

Bottom line is he was gone this year regardless of the coach or gm.

Evidence?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Eh. Murray was worse than Winnik. Despres was worse than Morrow. With the Morrow trade at least the thought process, while misguided, made sense. B. Morrow was actually playing some pretty damn good hockey for us before he shattered his knee cap.

I agree, but at lease Rev wasn't a rental and should bounce back playing in the right spot. Also, I don't blame JR for the Des trade, like you seem to, because it's clear it wasn't his choice.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I agree, but at lease Rev wasn't a rental and should bounce back playing in the right spot. Also, I don't blame JR for the Des trade, like you seem to, because it's clear it wasn't his choice.

I guess I don't think Lovejoy could bounce back to a level where it takes some of the sting off.

I actually don't place that much blame on JR for the trade, and have said so many times. At the same time, he has to take some of the fall because of his position within the organization. I just took issue with a poster downplaying the impact and the severity of the trade.

 

[Shady Machine]

I agree, but at lease Rev wasn't a rental and should bounce back playing in the right spot. Also, I don't blame JR for the Des trade, like you seem to, because it's clear it wasn't his choice.

So what it was still his final call. We are giving JR props for signing Plots and that was likely with significant input from Fitzy.

The GM should get the praise and blame for all moves. Now, there is always the possibility that Morehouse is meddling in these types of moves, but since we don't have concrete evidence, we have to assume JR signed off on the trade.

 

[IcedCapp]

So what it was still his final call. We are giving JR props for signing Plots and that was likely with significant input from Fitzy.

The GM should get the praise and blame for all moves.

I'm the biggest Despres fan here, and it was not JR's call. Not his final say, not his initial say. I mean, he didn't fight it, but he's he supposed to do?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I doubt that anyone here disagrees that the Despres trade was horrible.

I think that was the consensus at the moment that it was made.

What I can say is if you take the aggregate of work since JR got here he has received more value, and value that fits together making us a better team, than he gave away. Even spotting against him one really horrid trade and a couple of meh ones.

I'm angry about the Despres trade as much as anyone.

But never have I ever seen a GM say what he has when making a trade, like he did about the trade, I mean common knowledge or even people with normal IQ can read between the lines that it was a move that he did not want to make, it made no sense to him, and he says as much.

So for me, I consider the Despres trade a trade he was forced to make, not a move of his own.

 

[Penguinsyay]

Everything that there is to say about the Despres trade has already been said, it deserves the lowest F possible. Most of his other moves last season were a mixed bag but even the ones that didn't work out as well as expected (Perron, etc) weren't bad and often looked good on paper. His moves this off-season have been spectacular.

I guess the argument is whether or not the monumentally awful Despres trade was so monumentally awful now and for the future of the organization that the rest of GMJR's accomplishments are basically null and void in the face of it. Certainly, there are any number of GM's who would have made a mix of okay, good, and bad trades without making any trades that would OBVIOUSLY cripple the team in the future.

I would say that while this trade was terrible, bone-headed, and will forever tarnish whatever legacy GMJR leaves behind, he has still (potentially) managed to make us a much better team. He's given us a a legitimate 3rd and 4th line and a solid group of non-rental wingers for Crosby/Malkin. With the exception of Despres, he's kept our best young D-men when another GM might have traded more of them in pursuit of the aforementioned forwards. He also hasn't crippled us with any really bad contracts like Ray Shero has or like he did in Carolina. I think the man has crawled his way from an F all the way to a B, and he's about one Scuderi-dump away from an A-.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm the biggest Despres fan here, and it was not JR's call. Not his final say, not his initial say. I mean, he didn't fight it, but he's he supposed to do?

I feel like he likely did try to fight it, his animosity towards the reasoning of the trade shows he just did not like it.

Also, why are we giving Fitzgerald the props for Plotnikov?