George McPhee III

[g00n]

The Varly trade netted a good return and it had to be done at the time. Whether or not GMGM shares some blame for contributing to that situation is up for debate. I would say YES because he's responsible for the roster and the coach both. If his coach is mismanaging the roster, that's the GM's problem, too, and GMGM's style of isolating himself from the coach and the locker room likely played a role in it.

Unless there's some key information I've missed...?

One way or another, GMGM stunk up the joint with many of his moves regardless of whether or not he made some good ones.

 

[txpd]

Varly had always played at a high level, it was only his injuries that held him back. Predicting he would get past a few injuries was hardly clairvoyant.

Go back and watch game 7 v penguin or games 5 6 & 7 v Montreal. Pretty average at best at a time where he could have made a difference.

 

[kicksavedave]

As one example, this board was clamoring for Forsberg as he kept slipping in the draft. GMGM was praised for not passing on him as he slipped to 11. That praise has died out and now it remains to be seen if Forsberg even belongs in the NHL. The grade on that draft pick was A+ in draft day. Maybe a C today. In a couple more years, if/when Forsberg ends up a career AHL or SEL player, the grade will drop to a D or F. Its not rewriting history, its completing the evaluation.

 

[kicksavedave]

Go back and watch game 7 v penguin or games 5 6 & 7 v Montreal. Pretty average at best at a time where he could have made a difference.

The entire team crapped the bed in those games, but its nice to see you evaluate goalies lifetime worth on 2 or 3 playoff games. Because nothing ever changes after 2 or 3 games.

 

[Liberati0n*]

As one example, this board was clamoring for Forsberg as he kept slipping in the draft. GMGM was praised for not passing on him as he slipped to 11. That praise has died out and now it remains to be seen if Forsberg even belongs in the NHL. The grade on that draft pick was A+ in draft day. Maybe a C today. In a couple more years, if/when Forsberg ends up a career AHL or SEL player, the grade will drop to a D or F. Its not rewriting history, its completing the evaluation.

Yes. The evaluation of whether it was the right decision at the time. If this hypothetical busting of Forsberg happens, the question is whether the GMs who passed knew/saw something McPhee didn't. Well, really, the question is whether those same GMs would have passed on him at 11 with the same players on the board, too. You obviously "complete the evaluation," but if you do it with information that couldn't have been known or projected at the actual time of the decision, then just...

 

[KevinM]

As one example, this board was clamoring for Forsberg as he kept slipping in the draft. GMGM was praised for not passing on him as he slipped to 11. That praise has died out and now it remains to be seen if Forsberg even belongs in the NHL. The grade on that draft pick was A+ in draft day. Maybe a C today. In a couple more years, if/when Forsberg ends up a career AHL or SEL player, the grade will drop to a D or F. Its not rewriting history, its completing the evaluation.

So if a prospect doesn't break into the league by age 19 he's going to be a career AHLer? Thanks for the input.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Colorado's GM thought so. He bet heavily on it, and he was right. Now they are in the playoffs, largely due to Varly carrying them there.

Guess again.

And even the experts thought he was taking a crazy risk.

Look, I might have bought the "McPhee should've seen it coming" argument if Varly had been good the following season. Maybe even two seasons from then. But Varly ranged from mediocre to downright awful those first two seasons in Colorado, and he definitely wasn't better than our starters either of those seasons. Do you really think that McPhee should've predicted that two years from then, after two seasons where he was overpaid and would've been blocking Neuvirth and Holtby, Varly would suddenly emerge as a Vezina caliber goalie?

 

[Calicaps]

And even the experts thought he was taking a crazy risk.

Look, I might have bought the "McPhee should've seen it coming" argument if Varly had been good the following season. Maybe even two seasons from then. But Varly ranged from mediocre to downright awful those first two seasons in Colorado, and he definitely wasn't better than our starters either of those seasons. Do you really think that McPhee should've predicted that two years from then, after two seasons where he was overpaid and would've been blocking Neuvirth and Holtby, Varly would suddenly emerge as a Vezina caliber goalie?

Ya, kind of. I don't agree with KSDave overall here... The Varly trade was fine with me, but when you draft a young guy with crazy talent at the toughest position in all of sports, ya, you should have a plan for his development that includes some significant struggles but ends with realizing the vision that you drafted for in the first place. Sure, it may not work out, but this emergence isn't sudden. They picked Varlamov precisely because he had this potential, and Colorado, in rebuild mode was prepared to wait for him to reach it.

I really like Holtby and think he's the future, but basically we're setback 2 years because McPhee didn't have the patience to let/the skill to help his goalies develop. When Varly was here, we could probably afford to wait 2 years for him to mature. If 70 needs that much more time, I'm not sure we have it anymore.

 

[kicksavedave]

So if a prospect doesn't break into the league by age 19 he's going to be a career AHLer? Thanks for the input.

I did say "if/when" because I'm not sure where he will end up. But he has had two stints in the NFL and looked lost both times. He surely could turn it all around and develop, in which case the grade, including trading him for Erat, would change.

 

[kicksavedave]

And even the experts thought he was taking a crazy risk.

Look, I might have bought the "McPhee should've seen it coming" argument if Varly had been good the following season. Maybe even two seasons from then. But Varly ranged from mediocre to downright awful those first two seasons in Colorado, and he definitely wasn't better than our starters either of those seasons. Do you really think that McPhee should've predicted that two years from then, after two seasons where he was overpaid and would've been blocking Neuvirth and Holtby, Varly would suddenly emerge as a Vezina caliber goalie?

Well you know what they say about the experts.... If they knew the game, they'd be in it

 

[Calicaps]

I did say "if/when" because I'm not sure where he will end up. But he has had two stints in the NFL and looked lost both times. He surely could turn it all around and develop, in which case the grade, including trading him for Erat, would change.

You are contradicting yourself a bit here. Your argument is that they should have kept Varly because of his play now, 3 years later. But Forsberg's 20 games are telling that the trade was worthwhile? By your logic, we can't evaluate FF or the trade for another 4 years.

The facts are that the Varly trade was a very good one and the FF trade sucked no matter how they shake out as players. Trades are about the return you get for the asset as valued by the league at the time of the trade. Carly's value was low, so the return was high, relative to that value. FF was entirely the opposite.

 

[kicksavedave]

You are contradicting yourself a bit here. Your argument is that they should have kept Varly because of his play now, 3 years later. But Forsberg's 20 games are telling that the trade was worthwhile? By your logic, we can't evaluate FF or the trade for another 4 years.

The facts are that the Varly trade was a very good one and the FF trade sucked no matter how they shake out as players. Trades are about the return you get for the asset as valued by the league at the time of the trade. Carly's value was low, so the return was high, relative to that value. FF was entirely the opposite.

Grading a trade based on current value or things like scouting reports of draft picks is only part of the equation, but I'd suggest is the lesser important part of the equation - the real important part is what the future actually delivers and that is what separates the good/great GMs his peers and from message board posters - the ability to correctly see the future and make those calls better than his peers.

Trading a young prospect for an established veteran is always a risk. But trading for an established veteran who then fills no real role and is mishandled is simply bad management. Trading a young prospect who ends up as a bust can be solid (knowing when to throw in the towel) but trading a young prospect who then blossoms is a loss. Future results definitely impact transaction values, they are not static grades.

If Erat has locked down a top 6 role for a few years, the trade would look better than it did on the day it was made. But instead its just another in a long sequence of mismanaged transactions. Trading Eakin for Ribs would have been better if we had a prayer of keeping Ribs in town for more than a long weekend. Now we have neither. And Grabo seems no lock to stick around. So the #2C carousel continues. Sigh, GMGM, good riddance.

 

[caps4cup]

The entire team crapped the bed in those games, but its nice to see you evaluate goalies lifetime worth on 2 or 3 playoff games. Because nothing ever changes after 2 or 3 games.

Varly was the worst starter in the league last year and 2 years ago he was worse than Holtby was this year. He's literally had 1 good season. Classic case of what have you done for me lately. If we had traded Holtby and kept Varly, and they both played how they did last year, people on this board would've been saying the same thing as they are now.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

The entire team crapped the bed in those games, but its nice to see you evaluate goalies lifetime worth on 2 or 3 playoff games. Because nothing ever changes after 2 or 3 games.

It does hurt to see Varley succeed in Denver, but I still feel it was right to trade him when GMGM did. If I remember correctly Varley wanted to be given the #1 goalie position and wanted to be traded or threatened to play in the KHL if that didn't happen. The threat of playing in the KHL was the clincher for me. Once a player makes threats during contract negotiations, regardless of his talent level, he has to go, IMO.

 

[kicksavedave]

Varly was the worst starter in the league last year and 2 years ago he was worse than Holtby was this year. He's literally had 1 good season. Classic case of what have you done for me lately. If we had traded Holtby and kept Varly, and they both played how they did last year, people on this board would've been saying the same thing as they are now.

So, if we had done things differently but gotten the same result, we'd be saying the same things we're saying now? Um, ok.


We;'re grading GMGM on his body of work, which includes the end result of his trades/transactions, not simply on the day they are made. This isn't fantasy hockey, the end result is to improve your team, not to win the praise of pundits. In the end, this team got worse in almost every area you can grade them in, over the last 4 years. Even at its peak, it under achieved where it matters.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The entire team crapped the bed in those games, but its nice to see you evaluate goalies lifetime worth on 2 or 3 playoff games. Because nothing ever changes after 2 or 3 games.

If you take off the fan glasses he's right about those games. And those were arguably his most important games as a Cap.

I'm interested to see how he plays in an elimination game with Colorado honestly. I really want to know if he can become a better big game goalie.

 

[kicksavedave]

It does hurt to see Varley succeed in Denver, but I still feel it was right to trade him when GMGM did. If I remember correctly Varley wanted to be given the #1 goalie position and wanted to be traded or threatened to play in the KHL if that didn't happen. The threat of playing in the KHL was the clincher for me. Once a player makes threats during contract negotiations, regardless of his talent level, he has to go, IMO.

Again, GMGM mismanaged the situation (or let BB mismanage it as some would opine), then gets praise for how he extricates himself from the corner he put himself in.

I'll concede, the value we got for Varly seemed great at the time. But then we squandered the return, and now Varly is blossoming. Things change, grades are updated, this isn't college.

When looked at only in a snapshot manner, GMGM made a few decent transactions. When looked at as an entire body of work, and specifically the end result of those transactions, it was a 17 year long failure.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Dave's views are skewed but I can't bring myself to defend McPhee. He did some good here, only haters would deny that.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Again, GMGM mismanaged the situation (or let BB mismanage it as some would opine), then gets praise for how he extricates himself from the corner he put himself in.

I'll concede, the value we got for Varly seemed great at the time. But then we squandered the return, and now Varly is blossoming. Things change, grades are updated, this isn't college.

When looked at only in a snapshot manner, GMGM made a few decent transactions. When looked at as an entire body of work, and specifically the end result of those transactions, it was a 17 year long failure.

Regardless of how GMGM handled things, the player and/or his agent made the threat, not GMGM.

And I am no GMGM apologist. He's had a long time to mold this franchise into a SC contender and he hasn't. Its time for a change.

 

[kicksavedave]

Dave's views are skewed but I can't bring myself to defend McPhee. He did some good here, only haters would deny that.

My views are skewed?

All I will say to end my participation in this thread is that GMGM was a decent GM, who got lucky a few times, but the lions share of his moves got us no closer to a Cup. He lacked a cohesive vision for how to build a Cup winner, but he certainly built a fun regular season team for a few years.

He rode that 98 Cup run with someone else's roster and a coach he didn't hire for a looooong time. I wish him nothing but success, elsewhere.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

He's a good GM in building a team, a terrible one at assessing the final touches and reacting appropriately. Once GMGM had built his vision he seemed paralyzed by fear to make any more significant moves, it was as if he felt that if he pulled on the wrong piece the whole club would come crumbling down instantly. As a result the club slowly withered as a opposed to the complete overnight implosion he feared. He paid way too much service to his veterans at the cost of promising prospects. I don't think GMGM is a bad GM, he's just not right for this team anymore. He'll do a club elsewhere a lot of good no doubt, but thank God he's gone.

 

[ryan519*]

varly faces nearly the same situation in colorado as he did in washington, facing a ton of shots and a mediocre defense in front of him. difference is he's got one of if not the greatest goaltender of all time as his mentor and coach that probably fixed any issues with his game and couldve changed up his whole playing style. if anyone knows what it takes to be a great goaltender its roy

if we had roy as head coach this year you'd probably see holtby as a vezina finalist right now

 

[txpd]

The entire team crapped the bed in those games, but its nice to see you evaluate goalies lifetime worth on 2 or 3 playoff games. Because nothing ever changes after 2 or 3 games.

nope....go look again. not even close.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

varly faces nearly the same situation in colorado as he did in washington, facing a ton of shots and a mediocre defense in front of him. difference is he's got one of if not the greatest goaltender of all time as his mentor and coach that probably fixed any issues with his game and couldve changed up his whole playing style. if anyone knows what it takes to be a great goaltender its roy

if we had roy as head coach this year you'd probably see holtby as a vezina finalist right now

True, but if anyone knows how to be a head case goaltender it's Roy.

 

[ChibiPooky]

varly faces nearly the same situation in colorado as he did in washington, facing a ton of shots and a mediocre defense in front of him. difference is he's got one of if not the greatest goaltender of all time as his mentor and coach that probably fixed any issues with his game and couldve changed up his whole playing style. if anyone knows what it takes to be a great goaltender its roy

if we had roy as head coach this year you'd probably see holtby as a vezina finalist right now

Francois Allaire is the goaltending coach in Colorado.