Speculation: General roster discussion, trade speculation etc.

[hohosaregood]

Overall forward depth is probably at its best right now too. The top end isn't as good as it's been in the past though. We'll see how that plays out.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Overall forward depth is probably at its best right now too. The top end isn't as good as it's been in the past though. We'll see how that plays out.

It really depends on how you define the top end though. For a few seasons after the 2005 lockout, the top end was pretty much just Thornton and Marleau. It took a little while to get Pavs and Couture in there and we're now getting someone like Hertl to play at that level. We have at least three guys with that kind of potential in Meier, Labanc, and Goldobin but I doubt they get there before Thornton and Marleau go.

But 1-12, this team's probably got one of the best groups of forwards in the franchise's history. Although that 2003-04 team had a pretty good group of forwards themselves.

 

[Jwec]

I read on an Finnish NHL news site that Craig Custance wrote on ESPN.com that DW and Jumbo are negotiating contract extension and they are quite close with agreement. It would be a two year contract with about six million cap hit. If that is true and contract will happen shortly then it means that we are protecting Thornton on expansion draft so we are not trying to use any loopholes to protect anyone. At least not on this case.

 

[CanadienShark]

I read on an Finnish NHL news site that Craig Custance wrote on ESPN.com that DW and Jumbo are negotiating contract extension and they are quite close with agreement. It would be a two year contract with about six million cap hit. If that is true and contract will happen shortly then it means that we are protecting Thornton on expansion draft so we are not trying to use any loopholes to protect anyone. At least not on this case.

I would have no problem with that, and it seems plausible. Wilson is a no-nonsense guy for the most part. He's not going to want to play games with Thornton a second time. $6m for two years would be fantastic.

 

[Led Zappa]

I read on an Finnish NHL news site that Craig Custance wrote on ESPN.com that DW and Jumbo are negotiating contract extension and they are quite close with agreement. It would be a two year contract with about six million cap hit. If that is true and contract will happen shortly then it means that we are protecting Thornton on expansion draft so we are not trying to use any loopholes to protect anyone. At least not on this case.

Thanks for the info. If true, which I would suspect it is then JT has at least agreed to a 2 year contract which is spectacular. I don't care much about the $$$, but 6 would make me happy.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Real in depth analysis there.

Besides marleau missing why does it suck?

If you want in depth analysis (usually people ask me for less in-depth analysis )...

The omission of Marleau is the primary problem because it forces other players up the lineup. I don't think your lineup sucks, I just said it was whack because it looks really funky and experimental. Ward will be playing in the playoffs. Carpenter and Goldobin will not.

At least you didn't put Hertl at wing, but for those who did, I'm through arguing with people over why Marleau is the right option for the top-line (assuming he keeps playing this well), but here's the gist: The downgrade from Hertl to Marleau at 1LW is MUCH smaller than the upgrade from Marleau (pen Tierney) to Hertl at 3C; that is to say our optimal distribution of talent has 1LW Marleau and 3C Hertl.

Now comes the part where everyone else moves down the lineup.

For me, Meier ideally plays with Logan. Meier would surely do great things with Thornton and Pavelski but when you have Marleau doing all those things (pretty remarkably) then it would be smart to put Meier on a line that desperately needs him more. What I believe to be the biggest issue with the Couture line at even strength is that they lack a Joe Thornton/Tomas Hertl type of strong puck possessor (I don't meant Corsi by this, I literally mean someone who can hold on to the puck against strong players) since Ward isn't doing great. Donskoi-Couture-Meier or Labanc-Couture-Meier would be my ideal 2nd line. The remainder of Labanc/Donskoi gets shuffled down to play with Hertl. I'll say Donskoi on the second line for now so Logan doesn't have to play with two rookies.

Boedker gets the other 3W spot pretty much by default. DeBoer has honesty (despite my frustration over Haley) impressed me with his willingness to play Ward on the fourth line, so I don't feel like I have to stuff Ward somewhere in the top-9 when I make a lineup. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with top-9 Boedker, so may as well see what Hertl can make of him.

Trying Tierney at wing might not be a horrible idea, but given our depth that seems really silly to be honest. In my ideal world, we'd trade for a Parenteau or Stempniak type at the deadline to round out a line with Hertl and Labanc, but unfortunately those two specific players are doing too well with their teams right now so that's unlikely to happen. If it came down to Boedker vs Tierney for that last spot, I'd obviously pick Tierney if it meant finding a way to dump Boedker's contract, but in a vacuum Boedker is probably the better option, particularly with his speed.

That leaves Tierney as 4C and a choice between Ward, Wingels, Karlsson, and Nieto for the two wing spots. I'd pick Karlsson and one of Ward or Nieto depending on if I wanted speed or phsyicality.

As for the D, that part is SUPER whack. Dillon and Burns played well for a couple months two years ago, but Martin is performing adequately now and I see no reason to shake things up. Schlemko has absolutely zero experience playing a shutdown role and shouldn't. I like DeMelo but he has not been good this year so until someone actually plays poorly enough to warrant being taken out, DeMelo sits. Martin-Braun would be a horrible idea because they're both passive in terms of zone breakouts and neither is good offensively. Almost every single point Martin has this year was leached off of Brent Burns (all but one of his assists are secondary assists) and Vlasic is without a doubt better offensively than Braun, which really says something. Vlasic and Braun may not be performing up to the standards we're used to, but the bottom line is that our defense is one of the very best in the league and there is absolutely nothing that needs to be changed about it right now.

 

[Mattb124]

Overall forward depth is probably at its best right now too. The top end isn't as good as it's been in the past though. We'll see how that plays out.

For as good as our F depth is, I struggle to put 4 lines together that work well in terms of roles.

I don't think you touch the D, which is among the best in the league. Especially if Vlasic can work back to his 2015-2016 self.

 

[Jwec]

I would have no problem with that, and it seems plausible. Wilson is a no-nonsense guy for the most part. He's not going to want to play games with Thornton a second time. $6m for two years would be fantastic.

Thanks for the info. If true, which I would suspect it is then JT has at least agreed to a 2 year contract which is spectacular. I don't care much about the $$$, but 6 would make me happy.

I would like 6m x 2y contract too I forgot to mention that.

And I have no other info but that article about Jumbo and DW working on extension which is written in Finnish. Haven't find anything else but hopefully it is true.

 

[sjsharks92]

What Meier and Donskoi have been doing for Tierney makes me think that you don't need to put Meier on the top line. I'd rather leave the top line alone and go with:

Marleau-Joe-pavs
Boedker-Couture-Meier
Donskoi-Hertl-Labanc
Tierney/Karlsson-Tierney/Carpenter-Ward

Couture could really use some help behind the net and on the boards, and I think Meier can provide that. Boedker has been playing much better of late.

I wouldn't really mess with the D pairings right now.

I like these lines a lot.

 

[OffSydes]

 

[Gilligans Island]

I like these lines a lot.

I'd flip Boedker and Donskoi. I like the Donskoi/Couture pairing when both are on their game and I think Boedker could do better facing weaker competition.

 

[ScottyDont]

I would like 6m x 2y contract too I forgot to mention that.

And I have no other info but that article about Jumbo and DW working on extension which is written in Finnish. Haven't find anything else but hopefully it is true.

The problem I'd see is that is Jumbo gets 6, what would Marleau get?

 

[Gilligans Island]

The problem I'd see is that is Jumbo gets 6, what would Marleau get?

Assuming both parties want a re-signing, I'd say $5-5.5M (AAV) for 2 yrs would be right for Patty.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The problem I'd see is that is Jumbo gets 6, what would Marleau get?

It really depends on the amount of years the parties are willing to go with. If Marleau wants term, he's probably looking at 5-5.5 mil for two years right now. His production may not warrant the money but his tenure pretty much will allow for it to happen. If Marleau is willing to do a one year deal, he can make probably 6 million but have his initial cap hit be in the 4-4.5 mil range and make up the rest in bonuses.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If you want in depth analysis (usually people ask me for less in-depth analysis )...

The omission of Marleau is the primary problem because it forces other players up the lineup. I don't think your lineup sucks, I just said it was whack because it looks really funky and experimental. Ward will be playing in the playoffs. Carpenter and Goldobin will not.

At least you didn't put Hertl at wing, but for those who did, I'm through arguing with people over why Marleau is the right option for the top-line (assuming he keeps playing this well), but here's the gist: The downgrade from Hertl to Marleau at 1LW is MUCH smaller than the upgrade from Marleau (pen Tierney) to Hertl at 3C; that is to say our optimal distribution of talent has 1LW Marleau and 3C Hertl.

Now comes the part where everyone else moves down the lineup.

For me, Meier ideally plays with Logan. Meier would surely do great things with Thornton and Pavelski but when you have Marleau doing all those things (pretty remarkably) then it would be smart to put Meier on a line that desperately needs him more. What I believe to be the biggest issue with the Couture line at even strength is that they lack a Joe Thornton/Tomas Hertl type of strong puck possessor (I don't meant Corsi by this, I literally mean someone who can hold on to the puck against strong players) since Ward isn't doing great. Donskoi-Couture-Meier or Labanc-Couture-Meier would be my ideal 2nd line. The remainder of Labanc/Donskoi gets shuffled down to play with Hertl. I'll say Donskoi on the second line for now so Logan doesn't have to play with two rookies.

Boedker gets the other 3W spot pretty much by default. DeBoer has honesty (despite my frustration over Haley) impressed me with his willingness to play Ward on the fourth line, so I don't feel like I have to stuff Ward somewhere in the top-9 when I make a lineup. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with top-9 Boedker, so may as well see what Hertl can make of him.

Trying Tierney at wing might not be a horrible idea, but given our depth that seems really silly to be honest. In my ideal world, we'd trade for a Parenteau or Stempniak type at the deadline to round out a line with Hertl and Labanc, but unfortunately those two specific players are doing too well with their teams right now so that's unlikely to happen. If it came down to Boedker vs Tierney for that last spot, I'd obviously pick Tierney if it meant finding a way to dump Boedker's contract, but in a vacuum Boedker is probably the better option, particularly with his speed.

That leaves Tierney as 4C and a choice between Ward, Wingels, Karlsson, and Nieto for the two wing spots. I'd pick Karlsson and one of Ward or Nieto depending on if I wanted speed or phsyicality.

As for the D, that part is SUPER whack. Dillon and Burns played well for a couple months two years ago, but Martin is performing adequately now and I see no reason to shake things up. Schlemko has absolutely zero experience playing a shutdown role and shouldn't. I like DeMelo but he has not been good this year so until someone actually plays poorly enough to warrant being taken out, DeMelo sits. Martin-Braun would be a horrible idea because they're both passive in terms of zone breakouts and neither is good offensively. Almost every single point Martin has this year was leached off of Brent Burns (all but one of his assists are secondary assists) and Vlasic is without a doubt better offensively than Braun, which really says something. Vlasic and Braun may not be performing up to the standards we're used to, but the bottom line is that our defense is one of the very best in the league and there is absolutely nothing that needs to be changed about it right now.

What is your issue with top-9 Boedker and who would you rather have as a 3rd line wing when the whole team is healthy?

 

[do0glas]

If you want in depth analysis (usually people ask me for less in-depth analysis )...

The omission of Marleau is the primary problem because it forces other players up the lineup. I don't think your lineup sucks, I just said it was whack because it looks really funky and experimental. Ward will be playing in the playoffs. Carpenter and Goldobin will not.

At least you didn't put Hertl at wing, but for those who did, I'm through arguing with people over why Marleau is the right option for the top-line (assuming he keeps playing this well), but here's the gist: The downgrade from Hertl to Marleau at 1LW is MUCH smaller than the upgrade from Marleau (pen Tierney) to Hertl at 3C; that is to say our optimal distribution of talent has 1LW Marleau and 3C Hertl.

Now comes the part where everyone else moves down the lineup.

For me, Meier ideally plays with Logan. Meier would surely do great things with Thornton and Pavelski but when you have Marleau doing all those things (pretty remarkably) then it would be smart to put Meier on a line that desperately needs him more. What I believe to be the biggest issue with the Couture line at even strength is that they lack a Joe Thornton/Tomas Hertl type of strong puck possessor (I don't meant Corsi by this, I literally mean someone who can hold on to the puck against strong players) since Ward isn't doing great. Donskoi-Couture-Meier or Labanc-Couture-Meier would be my ideal 2nd line. The remainder of Labanc/Donskoi gets shuffled down to play with Hertl. I'll say Donskoi on the second line for now so Logan doesn't have to play with two rookies.

Boedker gets the other 3W spot pretty much by default. DeBoer has honesty (despite my frustration over Haley) impressed me with his willingness to play Ward on the fourth line, so I don't feel like I have to stuff Ward somewhere in the top-9 when I make a lineup. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with top-9 Boedker, so may as well see what Hertl can make of him.

Trying Tierney at wing might not be a horrible idea, but given our depth that seems really silly to be honest. In my ideal world, we'd trade for a Parenteau or Stempniak type at the deadline to round out a line with Hertl and Labanc, but unfortunately those two specific players are doing too well with their teams right now so that's unlikely to happen. If it came down to Boedker vs Tierney for that last spot, I'd obviously pick Tierney if it meant finding a way to dump Boedker's contract, but in a vacuum Boedker is probably the better option, particularly with his speed.

That leaves Tierney as 4C and a choice between Ward, Wingels, Karlsson, and Nieto for the two wing spots. I'd pick Karlsson and one of Ward or Nieto depending on if I wanted speed or phsyicality.

As for the D, that part is SUPER whack. Dillon and Burns played well for a couple months two years ago, but Martin is performing adequately now and I see no reason to shake things up. Schlemko has absolutely zero experience playing a shutdown role and shouldn't. I like DeMelo but he has not been good this year so until someone actually plays poorly enough to warrant being taken out, DeMelo sits. Martin-Braun would be a horrible idea because they're both passive in terms of zone breakouts and neither is good offensively. Almost every single point Martin has this year was leached off of Brent Burns (all but one of his assists are secondary assists) and Vlasic is without a doubt better offensively than Braun, which really says something. Vlasic and Braun may not be performing up to the standards we're used to, but the bottom line is that our defense is one of the very best in the league and there is absolutely nothing that needs to be changed about it right now.

Whack and experimental have way different connotations. Wish ppl would think before they post but whatever.

It was experimental. It was an attempt to place ppl where their deficient attributes are lessened and their strengths are in a position to succeed.

Obviously the omission of marleau was a mistake. Although should be promising that we can ice a line up without him being the top line forechecker

Tierney on hertls wing is a great example. Wingers have less responsibility in the d zone and offensively hed have skaters that could make sure he was on the puck a lot longer.

Ward is scratched in my line up. You bring up carpenter. Put him with our best depth net crasher/producer and a playmaker and now you have a positive 4th line instead of ten minutes of nothing.

I think you're perspective on the D is McLellan style. A shutdown pairing is great if it's necessary. Holding leads or containing Crosby or mcdavid level guys. But overall I think you're better off having three mobile scoring centered pairings. None of our guys are slow or bad defensively. But some of them are awful at generating offense.

Vlasic-demers is a great example of how that could work. Vlasic is like Martin times ten. Get him with a guy like schlemko and start making offense.

It was an experiment though.

 

[Mattb124]

Whack and experimental have way different connotations. Wish ppl would think before they post but whatever.

It was experimental. It was an attempt to place ppl where their deficient attributes are lessened and their strengths are in a position to succeed.

Obviously the omission of marleau was a mistake. Although should be promising that we can ice a line up without him being the top line forechecker

Tierney on hertls wing is a great example. Wingers have less responsibility in the d zone and offensively hed have skaters that could make sure he was on the puck a lot longer.

Ward is scratched in my line up. You bring up carpenter. Put him with our best depth net crasher/producer and a playmaker and now you have a positive 4th line instead of ten minutes of nothing.

I think you're perspective on the D is McLellan style. A shutdown pairing is great if it's necessary. Holding leads or containing Crosby or mcdavid level guys. But overall I think you're better off having three mobile scoring centered pairings. None of our guys are slow or bad defensively. But some of them are awful at generating offense.

Vlasic-demers is a great example of how that could work. Vlasic is like Martin times ten. Get him with a guy like schlemko and start making offense.

It was an experiment though.

Vlasic is better at offense than Schlemko.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Vlasic is better at offense than Schlemko.

I think his point was offensively, Schlemko > Braun (which I'd agree with). And that a Vlasic/Schlemko pairing would be slightly better offensively than Vlasic/Braun without much of a dropoff defensively.

I've always thought that a weakness of the Vlasic/Braun pairing is the lack of an offensive threat in terms of goals and primary assists. That pairing is great at defense and getting the puck out of the zone but that's about it.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What is your issue with top-9 Boedker and who would you rather have as a 3rd line wing when the whole team is healthy?

A trade acquisition. But Boedker is probably the best option that we have currently.

Whack and experimental have way different connotations. Wish ppl would think before they post but whatever.

And people should also think before throwing a fit over different definitions of the very scientific word 'whack', but ya know.

It was experimental. It was an attempt to place ppl where their deficient attributes are lessened and their strengths are in a position to succeed.

1. You said 'optimum', which generally doesn't jive with 'three experiment lines and three experimental D-pairs'.

2. I highly highly disagree with your distribution of talent.

Obviously the omission of marleau was a mistake. Although should be promising that we can ice a line up without him being the top line forechecker

Tierney on hertls wing is a great example. Wingers have less responsibility in the d zone and offensively hed have skaters that could make sure he was on the puck a lot longer.

Ward is scratched in my line up. You bring up carpenter. Put him with our best depth net crasher/producer and a playmaker and now you have a positive 4th line instead of ten minutes of nothing.

I personally don't think Tierney on the wing would make a smidgen of difference, but my point there was that it's hard for me to take your post seriously when your 'optimum' lineup involves playing a player at a position he's never played in the NHL, scratching a player who scored 21 goals for us last year, and permanently calling up a 25 year old who is obviously not in the Sharks' plans. I would love if Carpenter could be the full-time 4C because then we could move Tierney for a good winger, but that's so far from realistic. I get that forgetting Marleau was a mistake, but it's notable that you could create your optimal lineup without noticing that you're omitting our 4th leading goalscorer, the guy that makes that top line work.

I think you're perspective on the D is McLellan style. A shutdown pairing is great if it's necessary. Holding leads or containing Crosby or mcdavid level guys. But overall I think you're better off having three mobile scoring centered pairings. None of our guys are slow or bad defensively. But some of them are awful at generating offense.

Vlasic-demers is a great example of how that could work. Vlasic is like Martin times ten. Get him with a guy like schlemko and start making offense.

It was an experiment though.

I'm so confused. You think your D-pairs are a better distribution of offensive generation?

Our three best D at creating offense are Burns, then a huge gap, and then Vlasic/Schlemko. To balance offense, they should each be on separate pairs, right?

Instead, you put a guy who isn't the steadiest of defensive partners with Burns, a guy who needs a steady defensive partner, you put a guy who has never played shutdown minutes with the guy who will face every single top opposing threat, and you pair together the leftovers, both of whom are absolute garbage at generating offense.

I just don't understand.

 

[Timo Time]

Here's what I'd like to see when healthy.

Marleau-Thornton-Pavs
Donskoi-Couture-Meier
Boedker-Hertl-Ward/Labanc
Wingels-Tierney-Nieto

Don't know where to insert Melker.

 

[Mattb124]

Here's what I'd like to see when healthy.

Marleau-Thornton-Pavs
Donskoi-Couture-Meier
Boedker-Hertl-Ward/Labanc
Wingels-Tierney-Nieto

Don't know where to insert Melker.

Melker is better than Wingels or Nieto.

 

[corbanSOG]

Here's what I'd like to see when healthy.

Marleau-Thornton-Pavs
Donskoi-Couture-Meier
Boedker-Hertl-Ward/Labanc
Wingels-Tierney-Nieto

Don't know where to insert Melker.

I'd go with:

Marleau - Thornton - Pavelski
Meier - Couture - Donskoi
Boedker - Hertl - Labanc
Karlsson - Tierney - Ward

The only problem with this lineup is that it doesn't fit under the cap. According to CapFriendly, the Sharks will be almost $1m over the cap when Hertl comes off IR. Even sending down 1 of Meier/Labanc won't get them there. They'll need to move 2 of Meier/Labanc/Nieto/Tierney/Haley, or 1 of Wingels/Karlsson/Ward. I don't see the Sharks wanting to expose Nieto or Tierney to waivers (maybe Nieto, but I think he's still useful), and I think having Meier and Labanc in the lineup gives the Sharks their best opportunity to win right now. Ward's not going anywhere. Karlsson is a pretty darn good 4th liner. Trading Wingels may be their best bet, if they can find a taker.

 

[Alwalys]

boedker is our carl hagelin.

 

[do0glas]

A trade acquisition. But Boedker is probably the best option that we have currently.



And people should also think before throwing a fit over different definitions of the very scientific word 'whack', but ya know.



1. You said 'optimum', which generally doesn't jive with 'three experiment lines and three experimental D-pairs'.

2. I highly highly disagree with your distribution of talent.



I personally don't think Tierney on the wing would make a smidgen of difference, but my point there was that it's hard for me to take your post seriously when your 'optimum' lineup involves playing a player at a position he's never played in the NHL, scratching a player who scored 21 goals for us last year, and permanently calling up a 25 year old who is obviously not in the Sharks' plans. I would love if Carpenter could be the full-time 4C because then we could move Tierney for a good winger, but that's so far from realistic. I get that forgetting Marleau was a mistake, but it's notable that you could create your optimal lineup without noticing that you're omitting our 4th leading goalscorer, the guy that makes that top line work.



I'm so confused. You think your D-pairs are a better distribution of offensive generation?

Our three best D at creating offense are Burns, then a huge gap, and then Vlasic/Schlemko. To balance offense, they should each be on separate pairs, right?

Instead, you put a guy who isn't the steadiest of defensive partners with Burns, a guy who needs a steady defensive partner, you put a guy who has never played shutdown minutes with the guy who will face every single top opposing threat, and you pair together the leftovers, both of whom are absolute garbage at generating offense.

I just don't understand.

Wait. You think your lack of tact is MY issue? Lol

A. You're thinking of the d pairings as separate entities than the three forwards they play with. Having shutdown guys is great if your third line is doing the heavy lifting as well. What happens unless your the top line getting offensive assignments is that pairing will have an affect on GF%

I also love the attack on Dillon when it fits your agenda. Paul Martin is a great partner for burns but I'd like to see a top 4 that can positively influence scoring amongst the top nine forwards.

Overall it may be too much shift since we look to be a defensively structured team overall.

As far as Ward being scratched. Similar arguments were levied regarding boyles decline 5v5.

Also for everyone I think too much of our defensive success is being credited to two guys versus five.

 

[Mattb124]

A trade acquisition. But Boedker is probably the best option that we have currently.



And people should also think before throwing a fit over different definitions of the very scientific word 'whack', but ya know.



1. You said 'optimum', which generally doesn't jive with 'three experiment lines and three experimental D-pairs'.

2. I highly highly disagree with your distribution of talent.



I personally don't think Tierney on the wing would make a smidgen of difference, but my point there was that it's hard for me to take your post seriously when your 'optimum' lineup involves playing a player at a position he's never played in the NHL, scratching a player who scored 21 goals for us last year, and permanently calling up a 25 year old who is obviously not in the Sharks' plans. I would love if Carpenter could be the full-time 4C because then we could move Tierney for a good winger, but that's so far from realistic. I get that forgetting Marleau was a mistake, but it's notable that you could create your optimal lineup without noticing that you're omitting our 4th leading goalscorer, the guy that makes that top line work.



I'm so confused. You think your D-pairs are a better distribution of offensive generation?

Our three best D at creating offense are Burns, then a huge gap, and then Vlasic/Schlemko. To balance offense, they should each be on separate pairs, right?

Instead, you put a guy who isn't the steadiest of defensive partners with Burns, a guy who needs a steady defensive partner, you put a guy who has never played shutdown minutes with the guy who will face every single top opposing threat, and you pair together the leftovers, both of whom are absolute garbage at generating offense.

I just don't understand.

I tend to agree with this other than Schlemko being above Martin and Braun in actually creating offense - he has traditionally been more on their level and below Vlasic. He is a good puck mover but is one of those players where the eye test provides a false positive. Over his career his play has never translated into above- avergae production (peaks were 19 and 14 points, very Polak-like).