GDT: Game #58: Coyotes @ Canadiens - 5:00pm (AZ) - Scripps, Coyotes Corner

[cobra427]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

 

[LittlePipes]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

As I said, I am a Coyotes fan and always will be. But in no way am I satisfied with the status of the team at this point. Their record is awful on an absolute scale and on a relative scale. The arena situation isnt good ( saw Rogers Arena in Edmonton on TV last night… gorgeous) and the Coyotes really arent a popular team in the valley.
So I am with you Cobra… unsatisfied.

 

[DustyDangler]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

In the first year he was here, there was effectively no draft. This bad team took a year off from a whole draft.

Since his arrival, he has created an exceptional hockey operations department, has accumulated draft capital beyond anything any other team or GM has ever done, has had 3 solid drafts we are starting to see some fruit from. He has signed no debilitating contracts. Has acquired a 1A goalie via a waiver claim, and added an excellent defenseman for a 2nd.

The Coyotes current record is irrelevant. What is relevant is developing young talent that can lead to a future core that can then be built around. This is happening...Cooley, Guenther, Maccelli, Moser, Durzi, Ingram is an excellent beginning.

Measuring a rebuild according to how many points a non-playoff team is getting is unwise. Is this team closer to winning a SC since BA started, is the question that should be asked and this team is closer now than it has been in a long, long time.

 

[rt]

Do people seriously expect rebuilding through the draft to be faster than this? The first wave of players are barely getting their feet wet in the NHL. (Guenther). Moser is the only drafted player right now who’s actually contributing, but even he has much more room to grow. He was also an overager. Hell the third wave of players are only 18 years old. But yes, we should have 1C’s and 1D’s at this point already, and be competing for the playoffs.

They’ve had like 3x pick volume versus a standard rebuild and built out essentially an all-star scouting process ahead of the selections. They’re attempting to warp-speed this process without pulling out of it too early. This is the fastest track to doing things “the right way” without winning one or two or three lotteries. We should all be very grateful that they’re doing this in the manner they are.

BA took over a hockey team, not a business. Drawing parallels between the two is silly.

Could not agree more.

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

You seem to be extremely confused about how this works. Almost like it’s a mistake to conveniently assume all business is the same. Like closing your eyes to the realities of the differences is making it hard for you to see. Hmmmmmm……

 

[MIGs Dog]

build through trades. And usually those come after you establish a good prospect pool and a good young core

Exactly. We must develop current assets/draftees that can eventually be traded to fill holes.

This is why selecting BPA is not a bad strategy. We should NOT try to fill specific positions on draft day. This ain't the NFL. We have no idea which prospects will pan out. Get BPA, and then if you end up with too many top-line centers (one can dream), trade one or more to build a complete roster.

 

[Foggy1097]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

It isn’t the same. Do you expect the new hires at your business to take 2-4 years to be productive for the organization? I hope not haha. They’re expected to be hired and start producing and contributing…this is not a real comparison at all. It’s a business but in a completely different world than a normal business. Things are conducted differently and timelines are different. This is the reality.

The first half made everyone think we were further along than we are. This losing streak is now making everyone freak out and think we’re too far behind where we should be. This is most likely a result of recency bias and thinking too much based off of emotions and not taking the 30,000 foot view of what’s happening big picture. Big picture and losing streak aside, things are looking pretty nice and expected to look a lot nicer over the course of the next few months.

 

[Mosby]

Yes, running a hockey organization is a business, but team operations isn't. Name me a business where you have to draft new employees to get actually good employees and still wait a few years before they can actually work for you.

 

[FinnishCoyote]

I think we need to relax a littlebit. This team is not as bad as they have played recently, but also they are not as good as they were earlier this season.

Most of us wanted a proper rebuild and build through draft. That is exactly what BA is doing and it is going to take time. But i also think that next season we should surpass the 85 point mark and we should be looking upgrades at every position, except wings and starting goalie.

 

[rt]

I guess you are saying when BA started he didn't know if the club needed to be rebuilt, that is scary if he thought that and it took him a year to figure out what we had and what to do, and then decided to rebuild. In business, you don't get 1 year to make changes or figure it out. I think you were one of the guys saying we need to rebuild when BA took over.

Yes I was also impatient and naive. You realize that ownership exists, right? General managers have bosses.

This plan is not ahead of schedule, you’re kidding right? We are on a 73 point pace. Would you have said after BA took over that in his 4th season as GM being at 73 points would have been ahead of schedule?

Look at point totals as your measuring stick is telling on yourself.

 

[rt]

I think we need to relax a littlebit. This team is not as bad as they have played recently, but also they are not as good as they were earlier this season.

Most of us wanted a proper rebuild and build through draft. That is exactly what BA is doing and it is going to take time. But i also think that next season we should surpass the 85 point mark and we should be looking upgrades at every position, except wings and starting goalie.

Right. But the goal was never to see how good Schmaltz and Bjugstad and Zucker could make us. Haha. Vejmelka is not part of the future. Matt dumba being a disappointment has not one thing to do with the rebuild. The actual team, the team that’s actually being built for the future is either very young, a rookie or not even in the league. How Travis Dermott and Josh Brown are playing couldn’t be more irrelevant.

This team sucks because a bunch of guys who won’t be on this team in 13 months suck. This is a self cleaning ecosystem. Feed it more draft picks and watch it clean out the scrubs.

 

[rt]

Yes, running a hockey organization is a business, but team operations isn't. Name me a business where you have to draft new employees to get actually good employees and still wait a few years before they can actually work for you.

But I want to be really angry right now that a bunch of loser scrubs aren’t performing!!! I’m disappointed that a Schmaltz, Zucker, Bjugstad, Kerfoot, Carcone, Boyd, OBrien, Dumba, Dermott, Kesselring, Valimaki, Stecher, Brown and Vejmelka aren’t delivering A+ results for winning games this season!!!!

 

[cobra427]

It isn’t the same. Do you expect the new hires at your business to take 2-4 years to be productive for the organization? I hope not haha. They’re expected to be hired and start producing and contributing…this is not a real comparison at all. It’s a business but in a completely different world than a normal business. Things are conducted differently and timelines are different. This is the reality.

The first half made everyone think we were further along than we are. This losing streak is now making everyone freak out and think we’re too far behind where we should be. This is most likely a result of recency bias and thinking too much based off of emotions and not taking the 30,000 foot view of what’s happening big picture. Big picture and losing streak aside, things are looking pretty nice and expected to look a lot nicer over the course of the next few months.

How many business's have you restructured and/or built, and it how many different industries? Your first paragraph is telling.

 

[cobra427]

Yes I was also impatient and naive. You realize that ownership exists, right? General managers have bosses.

Look at point totals as your measuring stick is telling on yourself.

Point totals are like revenue and earnings, when do we get to use points as a measuring stick? If we were at 85 points right now, we would all be pointing to the improvement, but since were not, we can't use points? When can we use points as a measuring stick, next year, the year after, or just when it finally improves?

 

[Foggy1097]

How many business's have you restructured and/or built, and it how many different industries? Your first paragraph is telling.

You didn’t answer the question haha. Nice deflection though

 

[Kai Yo T]

I guess you are saying when BA started he didn't know if the club needed to be rebuilt, that is scary if he thought that and it took him a year to figure out what we had and what to do, and then decided to rebuild. In business, you don't get 1 year to make changes or figure it out. I think you were one of the guys saying we need to rebuild when BA took over.

Your refusal to acknowledging that BA completely transformed the business side of the franchise during his first year is baffling. He literally did what you said that you would've done, where it actually applies. You choose to ignore that part to fit a narrative. If you truly were some expert you could see this and appreciate it.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

How many trades and employee swaps have you facilitated in your business dealings?

 

[Foggy1097]

How many trades have you facilitated in your business dealings?

How many businesses have you run Kai?! Very telling that you would ask this question…

 

[Kai Yo T]

How many businesses have you run Kai?! Very telling that you would ask this question…

One. I could cut, fire, and hire pretty much at will. I didn't have to help my employees find another job, or negotiate with my competitor to take my employee in exchange for his.

Edit: Never had to draft and develop an employee either or negiate with an employee's agent, etc.

 

[Foggy1097]

One. The thing is though, I could cut, fire, and hire pretty much at will. I didn't have to help my employees find another job, or negotiate with my competitor to take my employee in exchange for his.

Yeah I was just joking with you man haha. I asked Cobra how many employees he hires that he expects to not be productive for 2-4 years and instead of an answer that’s the response I got

 

[Kai Yo T]

Yeah I was just joking with you man haha. I asked Cobra how many employees he hires that he expects to not be productive for 2-4 years and instead of an answer that’s the response I got

Wasn't 100%, but I kinda figured you were busting my balls lol.

There's not going to be any eye opener for him. He wouldn't allow it. Tunnel vision.

 

[Mangosteen]

Yes, running a hockey organization is a business, but team operations isn't. Name me a business where you have to draft new employees to get actually good employees and still wait a few years before they can actually work for you.

Any top business, practicums, apprenticeship ect ect.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Hockey is a business just like another business, is it different, yes. Are all business's different then each other, yes. Do the same principles apply to tear down and rebuild almost any business, yes. I don't know how many times I have been told " this business is different", you can't do it the same way, that just is not true. BA was clearly inexperienced at the tear down phase (waited too long), but he might be the right guy in the build phase, verdict is still out on that.

If this were the end of year 2, and we go 0-13 at this time of the year, I could understand why it might happen. I don't get how most guys are happy with where we are at this time in the rebuild and our current record/play, and think that BA and Bear are doing a great job.

I can’t understand anyone being pleased either, but man… you sure are a broken record.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Credit to @RABBIT because I totally poached this from his Bill Armstrong Chronology thread lol.

Focusing only on the operations side of the franchise, this is what BA did over his first 12 months on the job. Such a wasted year!


17 September 20 - Bill ARMSTRONG appointed General Manager of Arizona Coyotes

22 September 20 - Relieves Assistant GM and Director of Scouting Lindsay HOFFORD of duties

25 September 20 - Hires Brian DACCORD as Special Asst. to the GM and Director of Goalie Operations

25 September 20 - Relieves Assistant to the GM Jake GOLDBERG, Director of North American Amateur Scouting Phil MCRAE, Amateur Scout Mat MILBERRY, and Director of Statistical Analysis Brad ROSSEN of duties

1 October 20 - Hires Darryl PLANDOWSKI as Director of Amateur Scouting

2 October 20 - Hires Ryan JANKOWSKI as Associate Director of Amateur Scouting

7 October 20 - Appoints Associate Director of Amateur Scouting Ryan Jankowski and Assistant GM Steve Sullivan to run the 2020 NHL entry draft

12 November 20 - Hires Devan MCCONNELL as the team's new High Performance Director

11 December 20 - Hires David LUDWIG as Director of Hockey Operations & Salary Cap Compliance

12 December 20 - Hires Hunter CHERNI as Head Video Coordinator

15 December 20 - Hires Cory STILLMAN as assistant coach

11 January 21 - Co-Announces the hiring of Shane DOAN as Chief Hockey Development Officer

14 January 21 - Promotes Jay VARADY from the Tucson Roadrunners to the NHL coaching staff

25 January 21 - Hires Matt PERRI as Director of Analytics, and Lee STEMPNIAK as Hockey Data Strategist

9 May 21 - Announces head coach Rick TOCCHET and the organization mutually agreeing to part ways

29 May 21 - Special Asst. to the GM and Director of Goalie Operations Brian DACCORD announces his resignation

8 June 21 - Hires Randy HANSCH as an amateur scout

1 July 21 - Hires André TOURIGNY as Head Coach

6 July 21 - Hires Alan HEPPLE as Director of Pro Scouting

7 July 21 - Signs Jay VARADY to a three-year contract to serve as Head Coach of the Tucson Roadrunners

6 August 21 - Hires Larry PLEAU as Senior Advisor to the General Manager

13 September 21 - Hires Mario DUHAMEL to serve as an Assistant Coach

15 September 21 - Hires John Ferguson Jr to serve as an Assistant General Manager

 

[cobra427]

How many trades and employee swaps have you facilitated in your business dealings?

You might have to evaluate an employee, keep them, give them a raise or fire them, same with a new hire, you swap people out, its not fun and its not an easy decision. Some times you have to pay more and expect results much quicker, sometimes you pay less for less experienced employees and they take longer to develop. In dealing with competitors, sometimes you can swap business or agree to work together, its tricky, not unlike trading players.

The key is understanding what you have quickly, especially if you inherit a mess, and making the change in direction happen, not in a rush, but in short order. Time is your enemy, there is a cost to it, and we are seeing that now with the Coyotes.

 

[Kai Yo T]

You might have to evaluate an employee, keep them, give them a raise or fire them, same with a new hire, you swap people out, its not fun and its not an easy decision. Some times you have to pay more and expect results much quicker, sometimes you pay less for less experienced employees and they take longer to develop. In dealing with competitors, sometimes you can swap business or agree to work together, its tricky, not unlike trading players.

The key is understanding what you have quickly, especially if you inherit a mess, and making the change in direction happen, not in a rush, but in short order. Time is your enemy, there is a cost to it, and we are seeing that now with the Coyotes.

I'm going to take that non-answer to the question as meaning zero. You have negotiated zero trades and swapped zero employee contracts with any of your competitors in your business dealings. Because most of the non-sports league business world doesn't work that way.