GDT: Game #58: Coyotes @ Canadiens - 5:00pm (AZ) - Scripps, Coyotes Corner

[TheLegend]

"I build teams..... not arenas." - Bill Armstrong.

 

[DustyDangler]

Point totals are like revenue and earnings, when do we get to use points as a measuring stick? If we were at 85 points right now, we would all be pointing to the improvement, but since were not, we can't use points? When can we use points as a measuring stick, next year, the year after, or just when it finally improves?

When there are around 19-23 developed NHLers on the big club and the team is ready to make a Cup run (not a points run). Can only speculate when that will be but it sure isn't now.

 

[Kai Yo T]

The key is understanding what you have quickly, especially if you inherit a mess, and making the change in direction happen, not in a rush, but in short order. Time is your enemy, there is a cost to it, and we are seeing that now with the Coyotes.

Check out the other post above that logs all the things BA did over his first year on the Operations side of the franchise. Could you point out the indecision, lack of understanding, or how the pretty massive turnover in staff wasn't generally in "short order" to me? Because I read that and I see exactly what you say he should've done, but I can't figure out why it isn't in your mind.

 

[rt]

Point totals are like revenue and earnings, when do we get to use points as a measuring stick? If we were at 85 points right now, we would all be pointing to the improvement, but since were not, we can't use points? When can we use points as a measuring stick, next year, the year after, or just when it finally improves?

You’re so confident and you just aren’t even close to understanding what a rebuild is.

Your expectation is not something that has ever occurred in reality. And it’s not even close to anything that has ever occurred in reality. This is fantasy land. You’re upset that things aren’t living up to expectations you’ve created out of nothing with no precedent or even logic.

 

[Jakey53]

I agree that you also build through trades. And usually those come after you establish a good prospect pool and a good young core. Go back and look at all the trades Armstrong has made. He has traded off players from previous managements team for draft picks. The only player he has acquired through trade is Durzi. Again, he’s building through the draft right now. All anything anyone that claims he is failing is doing is just disagreeing with his style of a rebuild. Would I have preferred he acquired some young players or prospects in some of the sell off? Yes I would have. A giant pool of picks isn’t all that impressive to me.

Like you said, he should have acquired some young players or prospects. That is one of the reasons, I believe, that has hurt us. I agree about all these picks and it's not that impressive to me as well.

 

[Jakey53]

I think we need to relax a littlebit. This team is not as bad as they have played recently, but also they are not as good as they were earlier this season.

Most of us wanted a proper rebuild and build through draft. That is exactly what BA is doing and it is going to take time. But i also think that next season we should surpass the 85 point mark and we should be looking upgrades at every position, except wings and starting goalie.

BA said it was going to be a roller coaster of a ride. He was right. Hopefully BA will use current players and draft capital to fetch better players in a trade. We need talent.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

You’re so confident and you just aren’t even close to understanding...

Not to pick on him, well okay maybe a little, but this seems to be a common thread among small business owners and mid-to-upper-level managers i've known...they do tend to believe in themselves more than they sometimes should. Square peg round hole syndrome. "well this is just like that time I bla bla bla.... *completely wrong statement* ... you wouldn't know, you're not a leader like me"

 

[rt]

@cobra427 - I just re-read some of my replies and they were rude. I apologize.

Rebuilds are traditionally done through the draft. Draft picks take a long time. Rebuilds take a long time as a result. Not just 2 or 4 seasons. Much longer. And the coyotes are ahead of schedule because they’ve manufactured a ton of draft capital due to some pretty ingenious maneuvering that took advantage of unique market conditions created by the global economic shut down of 2020.

 

[Jakey53]

@cobra427 - I just re-read some of my replies and they were rude. I apologize.

Rebuilds are traditionally done through the draft. Draft picks take a long time. Rebuilds take a long time as a result. Not just 2 or 4 seasons. Much longer. And the coyotes are ahead of schedule because they’ve manufactured a ton of draft capital due to some pretty ingenious maneuvering that took advantage of unique market conditions created by the global economic shut down of 2020.

You sure apologize a lot. Anger management courses for you.

 

[rt]

You sure apologize a lot. Anger management courses for you.

I’m trying to be a trendsetter. Imagine if it worked.

 

[DustyDangler]

I agree that you also build through trades. And usually those come after you establish a good prospect pool and a good young core. Go back and look at all the trades Armstrong has made. He has traded off players from previous managements team for draft picks. The only player he has acquired through trade is Durzi. Again, he’s building through the draft right now. All anything anyone that claims he is failing is doing is just disagreeing with his style of a rebuild. Would I have preferred he acquired some young players or prospects in some of the sell off? Yes I would have. A giant pool of picks isn’t all that impressive to me.

It is incredibly impressive to me, particularly how he came about this giant pool.

Acquiring a 2nd (Artem Duda), 3rd and a 7th + 134gp out of Gostisbehere for...checks notes...nothing, should be remembered in song. Acquiring the 1st that turned into Guenther was a hero play. This giant pool allowed BA to acquire Geekie. in a 3 for 1 swap. Having the giant pool creates so many options and he is turning these options into long term positives.

 

[LittlePipes]

I think we need to relax a littlebit. This team is not as bad as they have played recently, but also they are not as good as they were earlier this season.

Most of us wanted a proper rebuild and build through draft. That is exactly what BA is doing and it is going to take time. But i also think that next season we should surpass the 85 point mark and we should be looking upgrades at every position, except wings and starting goalie.

Relax? Relax? Our goalie looks like a mackerel on the deck, one of our go-to defenseman has rocks for skates, you can't fit the number of fans equal to a high school senior class into our arena, the city of Tempe gave us the boot, our best offensive player is swinging his elbow around like Rodney Dangerfield in CaddyShack, and there are less donuts in a std box size than games in our current losing streak!!! Relax? And speaking of donuts, our goalie has more holes than a bag of em! And you want me to relax? Relax? Geez.
Time for a nap.

 

[DustyDangler]

Relax? Relax? Our goalie looks like a mackerel on the deck, one of our go-to defenseman has rocks for skates, you can't fit the number of fans equal to a high school senior class into our arena, the city of Tempe gave us the boot, our best offensive player is swinging his elbow around like Rodney Dangerfield in CaddyShack, and there are less donuts in a std box size than games in our current losing streak!!! Relax? And speaking of donuts, our goalie has more holes than a bag of em! And you want me to relax? Relax? Geez.
Time for a nap.

These comments brought to you by Get Off My Lawn Productions and What Is Even This Industries.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

....our best offensive player is swinging his elbow around like Rodney Dangerfield in CaddyShack...

the funniest thing about this is how vivid my mental picture of it is... i even hear him say "oh! my arm!" in my head

 

[GiveAFlyingPuck]

cc: @Dirty Old Man

 

[Kai Yo T]

It is incredibly impressive to me, particularly how he came about this giant pool.

Acquiring a 2nd (Artem Duda), 3rd and a 7th + 134gp out of Gostisbehere for...checks notes...nothing, should be remembered in song. Acquiring the 1st that turned into Guenther was a hero play. This giant pool allowed BA to acquire Geekie. in a 3 for 1 swap. Having the giant pool creates so many options and he is turning these options into long term positives.

BA's asset management really has been outstanding. When it's the right time to spend we're going to have an absolutely disgusting amount of riches to use.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I think a name change is in order for the Yotes. I suggest The Load Warriors, after the classic mid 80's XXXTASY film "The Load Warrior" because everything this franchise has ever done is "on the come."

 

[cobra427]

You’re so confident and you just aren’t even close to understanding what a rebuild is.

Your expectation is not something that has ever occurred in reality. And it’s not even close to anything that has ever occurred in reality. This is fantasy land. You’re upset that things aren’t living up to expectations you’ve created out of nothing with no precedent or even logic.

RT, no offense but I have rebuilt several business's and invested in rebuilds with great managers/leaders, I might have an idea or two and just might know what I'm talking about.

@cobra427 - I just re-read some of my replies and they were rude. I apologize.

Rebuilds are traditionally done through the draft. Draft picks take a long time. Rebuilds take a long time as a result. Not just 2 or 4 seasons. Much longer. And the coyotes are ahead of schedule because they’ve manufactured a ton of draft capital due to some pretty ingenious maneuvering that took advantage of unique market conditions created by the global economic shut down of 2020.

I didn't think you were rude, its all good, I enjoy the discussion and perspectives, we all have diverse backgrounds and experiences.

 

[cobra427]

Check out the other post above that logs all the things BA did over his first year on the Operations side of the franchise. Could you point out the indecision, lack of understanding, or how the pretty massive turnover in staff wasn't generally in "short order" to me? Because I read that and I see exactly what you say he should've done, but I can't figure out why it isn't in your mind.

Fire RT, decide who you are keeping, get rid of the rest, 6 months max to do this maybe 12 months. Keeping a lame duck coach doesn't help the young players. This is number 1, you need to have leadership that is staying, that wasted a year of development and culture. Leader is the first and most important thing to change. He could have found Bear or another candidate, they would be standing in line, in his first few months.

He waited too long on OEL/Chych trades. I know some will say, he waited and got better returns, maybe, its debatable. What he is forgetting is the time value of an asset. Getting a return sooner allows us to use those assets earlier in our rebuild weather they are picks or players. This is why we are strung out an extra 18 months.

One of those first things I do in a business us run a cash sensitivity analysis, and determine the value of assets. Rather then wait to sell something a year later at a perceived top dollar, you can asses the market and sell it sooner likely at near the same price you would get if you had waited. Its like waiting a year to sell a car for 21K, hoping it doesn't break in that year versus selling it for 20K now and then using the 20k to purchase another car or get get 8% interest some place. Its the time value of an asset, it works the same way based on a business and its cash needs via a cash sensitivity analysis.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Keeping a lame duck coach doesn't help the young players.

Lame duck coach ended up not being so lame on another team. Makes me think it was the roster Chayka put together that was the bigger issue. Either way, I certainly wouldn't have complained if they did replace him immediately.

He waited too long on OEL/Chych trades.

You make is sound so easy, just snap your fingers and poof! a good return for a steadily declining player with an albatross of a contract and an injury prone player. It sounds like you wouldn't get the best return and it wouldn't matter to you.

One of those first things I do in a business us run a cash sensitivity analysis, and determine the value of assets. Rather then wait to sell something a year later at a perceived top dollar, you can asses the market and sell it sooner likely at near the same price you would get if you had waited. Its like waiting a year to sell a car for 21K, hoping it doesn't break in that year versus selling it for 20K now and then using the 20k to purchase another car or get get 8% interest some place. Its the time value of an asset, it works the same way based on a business and its cash needs via a cash sensitivity analysis.

You're comparing moving unionized hockey players with contracts around within a 32 team ecosystem to selling a car. Apples to Zebras. This is why businessmen buy teams and pay hockey guys to operate them.

 

[cobra427]

Lame duck coach ended up not being so lame on another team. Makes me think it was the roster Chayka put together that was the bigger issue. Either way, I certainly wouldn't have complained if they did replace him immediately.



You make is sound so easy, just snap your fingers and poof! a good return for a steadily declining player with an albatross of a contract and an injury prone player. It sounds like you wouldn't get the best return and it wouldn't matter to you.



You're comparing moving unionized hockey players with contracts around within a 32 team ecosystem to selling a car. Apples to Zebras. This is why businessmen buy teams and pay hockey guys to operate them.

September 2020 BA hired
10 month later: July 2021 OEL traded
3 1/2 years later: March 2023 Chych traded

This a great example, neither player had more market value or what any of us would call great market 10 months and 3 1/2 years later. Sure, you can't snap your fingers, but this was way too long in both cases. We mostly returned picks, that take a long time to develop, we could have had similar picks a draft or two earlier, speeds up the rebuild.

 

[Kai Yo T]

September 2020 BA hired
10 month later: July 2021 OEL traded
3 1/2 years later: March 2023 Chych traded

This a great example, neither player had more market value or what any of us would call great market 10 months and 3 1/2 years later. Sure, you can't snap your fingers, but this was way too long in both cases. We mostly returned picks, that take a long time to develop, we could have had similar picks a draft or two earlier, speeds up the rebuild.

OEL looked old, injured and uninspired and was massively overpaid. I think BA worked some absolute magic on that deal. Vancouver is currently paying OEL $19M+ not to play for them anymore because they couldn't find a taker. There are only so many Jim Bennings.

Chychrun was in the plans until he wasn't so it didn't take BA 3 1/2 years to trade him. It was a long time, but I think it was worth the wait, personally. Also gotta acknowledge that other teams wanted to see him healthy before committing to trade for him and he was basically untradeable for a long time.

But anyways, you keep adding time to things. The "it's year 4 of the rebuild" spin and now this. If we traded Schmaltz tomorrow, would you say it took BA 4 1/2 years to trade him? lol.

Your method of speeding up the rebuild is just cutting corners to me. It should never be about how fast you can move a player but always about getting the best return. Even if you have to wait for it.

 

[Mosby]

Let’s remember OEL gave us a trade list of all of two teams. It’s incredible BA got what he did.

 

[Nowotny]

How bad Victor Soderstrom is that he cannot crack that lineup?

 

[Kai Yo T]

How bad Victor Soderstrom is that he cannot crack that lineup?

Seems to me there are several players in Tucson that would improve the Coyotes roster right now, including Soderstrom but it seems like they're keeping them down there to develop instead.