Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

[Navin R Slavin]

So he buys the team thinking they're set to improve without much money thrown in.

Team then goes 10-14-2 and looks worse and worse with each passing game.

This is going to be the quickest example of buyer's remorse in NHL history

Please. He bought a team that was spending ten million dollars below the cap. There's no way he thought for a second that this team wasn't going to need significant investment.

He's going to spend the money, he's going to want to have a say. Fine. Let's see what he can do.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Especially since he spent a fair amount of time with the team during the buying process from what was reported. And during any and all of that time, we were consistently inconsistent at best. And I'm sure he has access to say, Wikipedia, to see how the last 9 years have gone too.

 

[Canes]

lol he bought us because an expansion team would be more expensive? Like he was shopping for the grocery store brand instead of name brand? Even then, I don't even think that's true because aren't the Canes valued at almost exactly what the NHL expansion fee is? I know Dundon didn't buy the whole team right away but he easily has the money to do so and could have waited for an expansion team if he wanted to, although that would complicated things for him instead of just buying a team already on the market.

 

[bleedgreen]

You guys are so sensitive. I’m playing devils advocate. I think too many people are assuming he’s gonna raise our budget by ten to fifteen million, buy out Darling and Rask, and pay whatever it takes to get the best gm.

Let’s be reality for a minute. He’s a business man who got very rich relatively quick, he’s 46. He’s probably not gonna just throw away cash in every direction.

People say we are being cheap with the gm. Is it crap? Probably. Though he’s said Francis had too much on his plate and seems to maybe want a different structure than a tradition one, which would potentially involve a cheaper gm.

It just feels like everyone thinks Daddy Warbucks is gonna buy away all our problems this summer. A smart business man probably wouldn’t try to do that.

I do think he bought us because we were the easiest to get. Quebec can’t land an expansion team, but Dundon was getting one? Cmon. This was his way in. Now that he’s here he wants to win but that doesn’t mean he wants to spend another 4 million on a gm on top of Francis.

Maybe I’m wrong, we’ll see. Some of you just seem to think the moneys gonna fall from sky, he wouldn’t be rich if he just gave all his money away.

What did he buy the canes for? The rumored price of Seattle is 650 million. I don’t think TD came remotely close to that. It’s definitely cheaper to buy us.

Ps maybe not accurate but Forbes said we cost him 420 million.....am I missing something jdowling?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

It's a pointless argument.

The man said, multiple times, that he was impatient and was ready and able to spend money to win.

If you don't want to take him at face value, fine. Don't. Who gives a shit?

 

[Hulkacaniac]

I buy that perhaps Dundon thinks his new idea of a GM only deserves a certain amount of money. It may not be true, but I see it as realistic. I personally don't buy that he wouldn't pony up because he's paying Francis. I see that as much less realistic. Might be true, but I doubt it.

This is my thought as well. Perhaps he thought the role he is setting up has less responsibilities than a normal GM would, therefore earn less. People also tend to construct hierarchies based on pay grade so maybe if he wants a committee making decisions he wants to pay them similar salaries. This is just what seems most logical to explain it if true. If the lower pay turns off some candidates (or perhaps that's something Dundon wants) he's going to need to rethink his ideas. Dundon will learn to adapt to the hockey world and the hockey world will learn to adapt to him.

 

[The Faulker 27]

It's a pointless argument.

The man said, multiple times, that he was impatient and was ready and able to spend money to win.

If you don't want to take him at face value, fine. Don't. Who gives a ****?

Extremely successful businessman, Tom Dundon, close friends with some guy named Mark Cuban, worth an estimated 1.1B by Forbes in 2015, makes statement "We're going to do whatever we need to do to win — to have the best people and the most resources. There's really not a budget for that, it's just whatever it takes" ...and "We're going to increase the spending to have a higher probability of results." Local fan base so jaded by past failure, and other schmuckery, they believe he'll be cheap, and boring just like Ron Francis and Peter Karmanos. Probably end up turning the Hurricanes into a Harlem Globetrotters circus act on Ice before making good on very public promises to do exact opposite of previous owner. Tonight at 8.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Bleed, you might be overstating how much I think many are thinking his money will benefit us.

On a per year basis, a buyout of Darling isn't that much money. Paying a GM one year that Francis is on contract, even if it is $4 million, wherever we're getting that number from, isn't a big deal in my mind. He's mentioned expanding the scouting staff, so that's money. I think he'll raise the budget as Hank mentions, because he's indicated he's likely to do through impatience alone. I don't think, and I'm doubting most do, that he'll raise to the ceiling immediately, barring a magical run at Tavares, which I've always put at 0%.

But I think even all of those additions, and spending more on payroll won't amount to some insane amount of spending. Your mileage, and Dundon's, may vary. I'm doubting his will as much as yours.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Personally, I think he's probably gonna spend an absolute shit ton of money, only to discover that maybe he isn't as smart as he thinks he is (though I suspect he'll have at least some success doing that).

But the point is, he can spend that money indefinitely and *still* have an absolute shit ton of money.

Do you understand how much a billion dollars actually is? Let's say the purchase brought his non-hockey assets down to $700mm. At a conservative 5% return, he's making $35mm every year, forever.

Karmanos had no money. Compuware was a shit company. The Hurricanes were his money, and none of that money was liquid. Karmanos, in comparison, was f***ing broke.

Wake up. Money is not the problem. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Extremely successful businessman, Tom Dundon, close friends with some guy named Mark Cuban, worth an estimated 1.1B by Forbes in 2015, makes statement "We're going to do whatever we need to do to win — to have the best people and the most resources. There's really not a budget for that, it's just whatever it takes" ...and "We're going to increase the spending to have a higher probability of results." Local fan base so jaded by past failure, and other schmuckery, they believe he'll be cheap, and boring just like Ron Francis and Peter Karmanos.

Jeez, when you put it like that we sound pretty awful.

 

[bleedgreen]

I didn’t say he was gonna he cheap, I just said we shouldn’t assume he’s immediately going to try to buy us out of all our problems. Maybe he will try, maybe he won’t but I don’t assume he’s gonna pay a ton for a gm if he feels he doesn’t have to. He has plenty of money to burn, that doesn’t mean he will just burn it. He may not view getting a cheap gm as being cheap, based on whatever concept he’s putting in place here.

Azor I’m getting the 4 million number from the same Kypreos/McLean show that that’s obviously of some dubious quality as they say whatever shit they want to say to keep people listening. They were bantering back and forth, and he asked Maclean how much GM’s make and they agreed around 3-4 million. I think Lou, Babcock and Toronto may have set a new bar on those prices. I would expect TD to not automatically be in that price range. As those two on the show themselves said, all the assistant Gm’s are in it to be Gm’s. Someone is gonna take the job.

As Hank says you can believe TD is gonna throw down the cash or you may think he waits for what he thinks is a good time to do so. It doesn’t matter what we think, it’ll be shown to us soon enough. I’m just saying he may not want to spend on everything as much as we think he does.

I think he’ll want to reset a lot of things in the beginning to set his concept and he will spend accordingly to get it done. I’m curious to see the new gm, and what situation that person is leaving to come here.

I believe if we can get Tavares he will sign off on an offer that may get it done (whether he takes it or not is another story). I’m not saying he isn’t gonna spend when it’s a good idea to do so. I don’t think having enough money will be a problem, at least not immediately. This all started with me saying he may not want to pay two GM’s at the same time, when that money could be spent on a new player instead - and if the role of GM isn’t one that requires a high pay scale in his leadership model. That’s it.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

My issue with Dundon is that I'm seeing a lot of doubletalk from him already, and he's only been around for 2 months.

Look, I'm glad we've got an active owner again. It's a nice, refreshing change of pace. But other than some honeyed words and some ploys to get fans to watch a losing team, I'm not getting a sense of direction from the guy.

It's easy to say "I want this team to be a winner and I'm going to hire only winners and have the players be winners and yadda yadda yadda." It's another thing entirely to actually go through with it successfully.

I mean, just taking a section from the recent Q&A he did:

What do you say to fans who are maybe at their wit’s end with the way this unfolded this season and even prior to you being here?

TD: They should be frustrated. Obviously, it’s very disappointing and frustrating. I know that we have to put in a better process and structure than we’ve got. What I don’t know is what that will lead to in terms of results. And these results aren’t good enough. I think we know we need change, the organization needs change, and now we’ve got to make sure that we make changes that are going to give us the right results and not just make changes because we’re not winning. And that’s the challenge of this process, is make sure we end up in a better place. We have to be better next year and the year after and the year after. I mean, the only thing to say is they should be upset. I’m upset. I think everybody’s upset. No one wants to lose. I promise you, the players and the coaches — people may not want to hear it, but they are all-in. I don’t have, and I don’t think they have, any regrets about preparation or effort. I think all the regrets are around the results. And I think it could be different than that, and it’s just not. That makes it a lot easier to feel like the things we need to do to build on what you’ve got here — it’s reasonable to believe we can do better because you’ve got a group of players and people that care. So now we just gotta figure out how to manage them in a way to get a better result."

OK, so fans are upset, he's upset, but the team is good, the results aren't, so changes need to happen, but the issue isn't with the players or coaches because they're giving it their all, which means they're good enough, so now we need to figure out how to get a good result.

It's not just me, right? That answer was nonsense.

 

[bleedgreen]

I feel like the further he’s followed this process and watched the team up close, if he’s an intelligent man (which he seems to be) he’s probably learning there’s not a lot of easy fixes. No one is going to just give us better players. The players we have don’t have significantly higher ceilings (other than possibly Aho) so there may be a limit to internal growth. Good free agents aren’t going to beat down our door without notable over payments. Drafting and developing well is crucial but takes time and patience, which no one around this team aside from RF seems to have much of anymore, and he probably had too much of it.

It’s easy to say the right things from the outside, but now he’s up to his eyeballs and probably has less of an idea of what to say. He can’t promise us huge success next year. There’s a chance the goaltending won’t be better, and we’re going to continually have to increase salaries just to keep the team we have. Lindy and Hanifin are up this summer. He’s seeing first hand how it can be tough to change things.

At least he’s had this time to see the team and get someone in place to make a plan for the summer. It’s a biggie. This team was definitely supposed to make the playoffs under RF next year and we have per usual a few holes in the lineup.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I have no faith that this guy, or anyone really, is ever going to make this team good. I think the next time this team is in the playoffs I’ll be a grandfather (my kid is 2). And by then they’ll probably be playing in f***ing China.

 

[geehaad]

My issue with Dundon is that I'm seeing a lot of doubletalk from him already, and he's only been around for 2 months.

...but the team is good, the results aren't, so changes need to happen, but the issue isn't with the players or coaches because they're giving it their all, which means they're good enough, so now we need to figure out how to get a good result.

It's not just me, right? That answer was nonsense.

Yes, I think you're reading too much into his statement. He merely said it's not an issue of preparation or effort. He didn't say the players are *good enough* to stay, only that the problem isn't that they don't care enough.

One thing I have no patience for -- and this isn't a direct response to you, BB -- is judgment about yet-to-be-realized action based upon statements being made. For f***'s sake, this owner has made exactly one move thus far...let this play out just a f***ing little bit before shitting on the whole thing, will ya?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

One thing I have no patience for -- and this isn't a direct response to you, BB -- is judgment about yet-to-be-realized action based upon statements being made. For ****'s sake, this owner has made exactly one move thus far...let this play out just a ****ing little bit before ****ting on the whole thing, will ya?

THANK YOU

 

[MinJaBen]

I think we had a chance to turn this team around this coming offseason. If we had looked like we were almost there, there were going to be a bunch of UFAs that would fit our needs (JT, lots of scoring wingers) that we could have spent money on to push us over the top. But we fell apart. Now, we don't look like a place to go that needs just a guy or two to become a contender. Our goal tending is a train wreck and we look anemic on offense. Even our young "up and coming" defense looked like the amateur hour for most of the season. No way JT would sign here now.

The whole Darling situation just pisses me off so much. I don't blame the team too much for thinking he might have been the answer. But I do blame them a lot for not being more proactive about recognizing that he wasn't when we got to the November/December time frame. We have now lost our window, in my opinion. Even if we go out and get another goalie, there will be too many questions to attract a guy like Tavares. Then, when we are average again next year and the year after that, we will start to lose some of the guys who want to try somewhere else like Faulk and Skinner...maybe Hanifin if he makes a stink about his RFA contract. Couple that with an owner who is perceived to be meddlesome and a hockey rookie, I could see our "rebuild" turning into Buffalo's rebuild really quickly.

 

[geehaad]

I was as bullish as anyone on the prospect of JT signing here in the offseason, but now, even if he makes it to free agency, I have serious doubts. The team's performance, the goaltending situation, demoting Francis, fans not happy, questions about the direction of the team...those are not the kind of questions a man in JT's position wants to be asking himself.

 

[Stickpucker]

I'm trying to figure out where the 4 mil GM salary comes from. I can see that figure in TO but I assumed leaguewide it was much lower. 1 - 2 m range?

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I'm trying to figure out where the 4 mil GM salary comes from. I can see that figure in TO but I assumed leaguewide it was much lower. 1 - 2 m range?

$4 million is quite high, yes. Not saying there isn’t a GM making that...but that’s very high. The low end is right around $1 million.

I am curious where the Tavares talk originated, that this was a valid/preferred/somewhat possible location. I haven’t read anything on that and am wondering how it all got started.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

This talk of Dundon being cheap is beyond silly. Is this all based on dumbass Jeff Oneills comment?

He's not going to settle for a crappy GM based on money. He's already proven as much.

But I don't think he's going to be buying out any players either. Not the best plan long term. Trade and retain half, or make chicken sandwiches out of chicken crap.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I was as bullish as anyone on the prospect of JT signing here in the offseason, but now, even if he makes it to free agency, I have serious doubts. The team's performance, the goaltending situation, demoting Francis, fans not happy, questions about the direction of the team...those are not the kind of questions a man in JT's position wants to be asking himself.

I know who you can blame for that original bullish thought process, but there has been at no time any earthly chance JT was coming here.

 

[StormCast]

This talk of Dundon being cheap is beyond silly. Is this all based on dumbass Jeff Oneills comment?

He's not going to settle for a crappy GM based on money. He's already proven as much.

But I don't think he's going to be buying out any players either. Not the best plan long term. Trade and retain half, or make chicken sandwiches out of chicken crap.

The guy has a go-kart track. In his house. Cheap isn't in his DNA.

 

[The Faulker 27]

The guy has a go-kart track. In his house. Cheap isn't in his DNA.

You mean this shack?

Veruschka and Thomas Dundon

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Dundon just ponied up hundreds of millions of dollars to be the majority of the owner of the Hurricanes, if he can't afford to extra salary going towards management for a year or two, we're in much more trouble than previously thought. I don't think even Eugene Melnyk is that cheap.


Francis becomes GM in a few years, and a few years after that Malkin and Crosby retire. The Penguins roster looks so bad even their 2003-2004 roster looks like a dynasty in comparison. Francis', a true JR protege through and through, thoughts? "We like our group."

If that's the case it'll be another case of Francis trying to clean up a mess of JR's creation and not getting enough credit for it. The Penguins haven't drafted a player in the first round since the 2014 Entry Draft. Wrap your brain around that. Rutherford has been the Pens GM since June of 2014. In that time they've taken exactly one first round pick and that first rounder doesn't play for them anymore (Kasperi Kapanen who got sent to Toronto as part of the Kessel deal). The last first rounder that they drafted that still plays for them is Maata. At some point that catches up with them to their detriment. Here's the fate of Pittsburgh 1st rounders post-Crosby. Players still with the Pens or in their system are marked with an asterisk (*)

2006 - Jordan Staal (2nd overall) - Traded to Carolina in 2012 for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin*, and the 8th overall pick in the 2012 Entry Draft (Derrick Pouliot)

2007 - Angelo Esposito (20th overall) - Traded to Atlanta in 2008 with Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, and a 1st round pick in the 2008 Entry Draft (Daultan Leveille) for Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis

2008 - (29th overall) - Traded to Atlanta in 2008 with Angelo Esposito, Colby Armstrong, and Erik Christensen for Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis. Atlanta drafts Daultan Leveille with this pick.

2009 - Simon Despres (30th overall) - Traded to Anaheim in 2015 for Ben Lovejoy.

2010 - Beau Bennett (20th overall) - Traded to New Jersey in 2016 for a 3rd round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (Connor Hall*, 77th overall)

2011 - Joe Morrow (23rd overall) - Traded to Dallas in 2013 with a 5th round pick in the 2013 Entry Draft (Matej Paulovic, 149th overall) for Brenden Morrow and a 3rd round pick in the 2013 Entry Draft (Jake Guentzel*, 77th overall)

2012 - Derrick Pouliot (8th overall) - Traded to Vancouver in 2017 for Andrey Pedan* and a 4th round pick in the 2018 Entry Draft

2012 - Olli Maata* (22nd overall)

2013 - (28th overall) - Traded to Calgary in 2013 with Kenny Agostino and Ben Hanowski for Jarome Iginla. Calgary drafts Morgan Klimchuk with this pick.

2014 - Kasperi Kapanen (22nd overall) - Traded to Toronto in 2015 with Nick Spaling, Scott Harrington, a 3rd round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (James Greenway, 72nd overall), and a conditional pick (turned into a 1st round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (Sam Steel, 30th overall) for Phil Kessel*, Tyler Biggs, Tim Erixon, and a 2nd round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (Kasper Bjorkqvist*, 61st overall)

2015 - (16th overall) - Traded to Edmonton in 2015 with Rob Klinkhammer for David Perron. Edmonton would then trade this pick and a 2nd round pick in the 2015 Entry Draft (Mitchell Stephens, 34th overall) to the New York Islanders for Griffin Reinhart. The Islanders would draft Mathew Barzal with this pick

2016 - (30th overall) - Traded to Toronto in 2015 with Nick Spaling, Scott Harrington, and a 3rd round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (James Greenway, 72nd overall) for Phil Kessel*, Tyler Biggs, Tim Erixon, and a 2nd round pick in the 2016 Entry Draft (Kasper Bjorkqvist*, 61st overall). Toronto would then trade this pick to the Anaheim Ducks in 2016 along with a 2nd round pick in the 2017 Entry Draft (Maxime Comtois, 50th overall) for Frederik Andersen. The Ducks would draft Sam Steel with this pick.

2017 - (31st overall) - Traded to St. Louis in 2017 with Oskar Sundqvist for Ryan Reaves and a 2nd round pick in the 2017 Entry Draft (Zachary Lauzon*, 51st overall). The Blues would draft Klim Kostin with this pick.

So the sum of 13 1st round picks over 12 years, the Pens are left with:

Phil Kessel
Jake Guentzel
Olli Maata
Brian Dumoulin
Kasper Bjorkqvist (yet to debut)
Connor Hall (yet to debut)
Zachary Lauzon (yet to debut)
Andrey Pedan (yet to debut)