Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

Boom Boom Apathy

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well, that, and winning a lottery to get the Finnish Alex Ovechkin.
Carolina hasn't had that kind of fortune.

That's part of it for sure, but before that:

2011: Scheifele: 7th pick
2012: Trouba: 9th pick
2013: Morrisey: 13th pick
2014: Ehlers: 9th pick
2015: Connor: 17th pick

Plus, signing or trading for Buff, Wheeler, Myers, Perreault.

No doubt Laine pushed them over the top, but they had a very strong base built up.
 

A Star is Burns

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If there were actual animosity, he'd be gone.

And **** "gauche". Vegas is Year 1 into their Year 1 plan. You want a 5 year plan, join your local communist party.

Yeah, the perception around the league by a lot of people at this point may be quick turnarounds. People are looking at the New Jersey's and Colorado's and Vegas's and Philly's and Winnipeg's of the world with big turnarounds (though many ignore that though those teams were bad last year, it wasn't just a one year turnaround for them, they had accumulated some of their pieces over several years).

I do think if we get the right person in here, they can continue to have us build for the future, but also have this team make some big strides.
 

Blueline Bomber

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If there were actual animosity, he'd be gone.

And **** "gauche". Vegas is Year 1 into their Year 1 plan. You want a 5 year plan, join your local communist party.

Do you remember the state JR left the Canes in when Francis took over? Expecting a 1-year turnaround from that is ridiculous.

The results on the ice are all that matter in the end, but (IMO) we're in a better position now after Francis' 4 years than we were when he took over.
 

The Burdened

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That's part of it for sure, but before that:

2011: Scheifele: 7th pick
2012: Trouba: 9th pick
2013: Morrisey: 13th pick
2014: Ehlers: 9th pick
2015: Connor: 17th pick

Plus, signing or trading for Buff, Wheeler, Myers, Perreault.

No doubt Laine pushed them over the top, but they had a very strong base built up.
That's fair.
They have a strong base and he no doubt has done very well drafting, but the Laine luck cannot be overstated. Cheveldayoff was building a perennial playoff team; getting the opportunity to draft Laine likely turned them into perennial cup contenders.

and as the post above says, if Francis would have hit on his 1st rounders like Cheveldayoff did (and that is not a slam on Francis because Francis picked relatively well, but look no further than 2014 and the guys picked right after Francis made his), then the Canes likely don't have a 9-year playoff drought.
 

Navin R Slavin

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Something to consider with the Shannon tweet.

He has this idea that Dundon sees himself as capable of being a GM all on his own. Now I really doubt that Shannon has any idea what’s going on between Dundon’s ears. He doesn’t have those relationships as far as I can see, so he’s pulling that story from some kind of leak. But there’s undoubtedly some core of truth to it, or it wouldn’t have come to him in the first place.

Now, what we’re actually getting from the horse’s mouth is a desire to get better at the personnel side of the house, in the context of a guy who self-admittedly doesn’t have much of a clue about the sport.

By way of trying to make all of that information make sense (and not come to a nonsense conclusion like Dundon negotiating trades) I think the answer lies in the other side of the GM’s job — sales and marketing, building relationships with the media, dealing with the arena authority, building the organizational staff. In other words, the side of the job that Dundon has already been visibly doing since he got here.

Karmanos has been pretty much the exact opposite type of owner, staying so far from the day-to-day operations that Rutherford pretty much ran the entire show by himself until Waddell arrived.

It’s easy to imagine that transitioning from PK to TD will mean a lot of modified job descriptions in the front office, first and foremost that of the GM. My guess is that the next guy is going to be responsible for very little other than managing hockey talent. Dundon is going to be taking over a lot of the other responsibilities — hence the content of the Shannon tweet.

If I’m right, then the next shoe to drop might not be Bill Peters... but Don Waddell.

Anyway, my guess as to what’s happening behind closed doors on Edwards Mill Rd.
Good take. Frankly I'm surprised Waddell survived the closing.
 

Navin R Slavin

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Do you remember the state JR left the Canes in when Francis took over? Expecting a 1-year turnaround from that is ridiculous.

The results on the ice are all that matter in the end, but (IMO) we're in a better position now after Francis' 4 years than we were when he took over.

Fair. GMRF was competent, and his work in cleaning out the stables was important and we owe him a debt of gratitude.

But Dundon decided he wasn't the guy to take us to the next level, and I can't say I see a reason to disagree.
 

DaveG

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That's fair.
They have a strong base and he no doubt has done very well drafting, but the Laine luck cannot be overstated. Cheveldayoff was building a perennial playoff team; getting the opportunity to draft Laine likely turned them into perennial cup contenders.

and as the post above says, if Francis would have hit on his 1st rounders like Cheveldayoff did (and that is not a slam on Francis because Francis picked relatively well, but look no further than 2014 and the guys picked right after Francis made his), then the Canes likely don't have a 9-year playoff drought.

Chevy's drafting tenure started 3 years before Francis's did. Hard to say what guys like Fleury, Hanifin, Necas, and even Bean and Goat will or won't turn out like. Hanifin, even if he was arguably rushed a bit, has shown nothing to lead people to believe that he won't turn in to the dman people expect him to be, he's following the same development path as Hedman at this point. Everyone was all "lol bust" when it came to Fleury, until he actually got to the show this year and people had to eat crow going "actually this guy ain't too bad". Bean is a wait and see like that as well, still probably 2 seasons out. The big thing with Bean is that it's a dick punch that McAvoy went literally the next pick, that's it. Dmen tend to take longer to develop so the jury will be out on him for a while. Ehlers/Nylander after Fleury is the exact same thing only when viewed with 20/20 hindsite. At the time we had no clue that Slavin was going to be the stud he is or that we'd be in position to get Hanifin the next year. Fleury was the consensus #2 dman in that draft, Slavin was some rando 4th rounder that spent a few years in the USHL and NCAA after being drafted before being signed. Even the most optimistic projections didn't have him turning out this good. Necas is literally all over top prospects lists right now and many of the most qualified people when it comes to making that judgement have him as a top 5 drafted prospect not in the NHL. He very well could end up being our Scheifele. The one guy to have the most concern about is Goat, and again, PFs take longer to develop typically and he was BPA at that spot.

As I said earlier, I really get the feeling that people are going to view Francis's tenure in a much better light here in 3-4 years as long as it's not all blown up.

Literally the biggest difference between the two is that Chevy got more time and a hell of a lot more luck with some f***ing pingpong balls in a year with literally the best pure goal scoring prospect in a decade being available at #2, and that was what 7 years in for Chevy?
 
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cptjeff

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Keeping Francis, while already having Waddell, is puzzling. What’s left for him to oversee? My guess is that Francis will resign before next season starts.

Team executives and coaches, like players, are signed to fixed term contracts. When a coach is fired, they remain employed by teams, usually reassigned to a scouting role, though provisions exist for other teams to hire them away in that circumstance.

Ron Francis has a contract. He works for this organization until it runs out. We're paying him the money whether he shows up to the office or not, so you might as well have him show up to the office.


Anyway, I had a busy day today and completely missed this. I'm 100% in favor. Francis got us nowhere, and passed up on a lot of opportunities to make moves that would improve the team. He's a good person, and you hate to see things like this happen, but he was an utter failure as a GM. We are in the exact same place we were 4 years ago. Ron Francis's strategy of patient building through the draft has been a strategy of treading water. Other teams get to draft too, and if your drafting is average, you do nothing but tread water. We've done nothing but tread water for a decade. Enough.
 

Canes

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Chevy's drafting tenure started 3 years before Francis's did. Hard to say what guys like Fleury, Hanifin, Necas, and even Bean and Goat will or won't turn out like. Hanifin, even if he was arguably rushed a bit, has shown nothing to lead people to believe that he won't turn in to the dman people expect him to be, he's following the same development path as Hedman at this point. Everyone was all "lol bust" when it came to Fleury, until he actually got to the show this year and people had to eat crow going "actually this guy ain't too bad". Bean is a wait and see like that as well, still probably 2 seasons out. The big thing with Bean is that it's a dick punch that McAvoy went literally the next pick, that's it. Dmen tend to take longer to develop so the jury will be out on him for a while. Ehlers/Nylander after Fleury is the exact same thing only when viewed with 20/20 hindsite. At the time we had no clue that Slavin was going to be the stud he is or that we'd be in position to get Hanifin the next year. Necas is literally all over top prospects lists right now and many of the most qualified people when it comes to making that judgement have him as a top 5 drafted prospect not in the NHL. The one guy to have the most concern about is Goat, and again, PFs take longer to develop typically and he was BPA at that spot.

As I said earlier, I really get the feeling that people are going to view Francis's tenure in a much better light here in 3-4 years as long as it's not all blown up.

Literally the biggest difference between the two is that Chevy got more time and a hell of a lot more luck with some ****ing pingpong balls in a year with literally the best pure goal scoring prospect in a decade being available at #2, and that was what 7 years in for Chevy?
Fair enough.

Maybe it's just the pessimism in me, but the only players out of those players you've listed that I have any confidence in becoming impact guys are Necas and maybe Hanifin.

But I'm starting to really wonder about Hanifin's upside at this point. I watched a lot of Hedman when he was younger and I saw a guy who had unreal potential but was struggling growing into his huge frame and being the #1 all situations guy. He also didn't have the benefit of getting the easy match ups like Hanifin does due to the emergence of Slavin and Pesce as shutdown defensive types.

I mean just look at the d-man Hedman had pleasure of playing with his first 3 years:
8Matt WalkerD6623590-11----------ALTA: Beaverlodge29
6Kurtis FosterD718344248-5----------ONT: Carp27
Matt LashoffD500021-2----------NY: East Greenbush22
Vladimir MihalikD40002-4----------Slovakia: Presov22
77Victor HedmanD744162079-3----------Sweden: Ornskoldsvik18
58Scott JacksonD100000----------BC: Salmon Arm22
5Mattias OhlundD670131359-8----------Sweden: Pitea32
Lukas Krajicek 4D2301121-4----------Czech Rep.: Prostejov26
32Matt SmabyD3302227-4----------MN: Minneapolis24
39Mike LundinD493101318-4----------MN: Burnsville24
Paul RangerD81126-2----------ONT: Whitby24
21David HaleD3904425-2----------CO: Colorado Springs28
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

7Brett ClarkD8292231142181238SASK: Wapella33
8Randy JonesD611121315-450112NB: Quispamsis29
39Mike LundinD691111212-3180222MN: Burnsville25
77Victor HedmanD7932326703180668Sweden: Ornskoldsvik19
47Marc-Andre BergeronD232688-10142139PQ: Trois-Rivieres29
5Mattias OhlundD7205570-7181238Sweden: Pitea33
Mathieu RoyD40002-2----------PQ: Saint-Georges27
13Pavel KubinaD7941923622821310Czech Rep.: Celadna33
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2Eric BrewerD821202149-5----------BC: Vernon32
13Pavel Kubina 4D523811591----------Czech Rep.: Celadna34
27Bruno GervaisD5067138-4----------PQ: Longueuil26
7Brett ClarkD822131520-26----------SASK: Wapella34
97Matt Gilroy 3D5321517162----------NY: North Bellmore27
15Brian Lee 6D200888-6----------ND: Fargo24
3Keith Aulie 8D1901113-5----------SASK: Rouleau22
43Evan ObergD300002----------ALTA: Forestburg23
77Victor HedmanD615182365-9----------Sweden: Ornskoldsvik20
47Marc-Andre BergeronD4342024206----------PQ: Trois-Rivieres30
23Mike Commodore 9D13000174----------ALTA: Fort Saskatchewan31
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

But Hanifin just keeps making the same defensive mistakes over and over again despite getting fairly easy matchups compared to Slavin and Pesce, and Craig Button of all people seems to right on about judging Hanifin's offensive upside. He just doesn't consistently drive play outside of a handful of games per year.

Fleury may turn out to be a solid 2nd pairing guy in the future but it still stings we could have had Nylander or Ehlers.

Bean just seems like a left handed Ryan Murphy at this point. He's going to have to do a lot to shed his reputation.

Gauthier has miles to go to become even a B prospect at this point.

Hopefully some of our 2nd and 3rd rounders pan out because we're going to need them.
 

tarheelhockey

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Ron Francis's strategy of patient building through the draft has been a strategy of treading water. Other teams get to draft too, and if your drafting is average, you do nothing but tread water. We've done nothing but tread water for a decade. Enough.

This sums up my frustration with Francis in a nutshell.

If you’re going to build through the draft alone, you better be really damned good at drafting.
 

bleedgreen

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I'm a little concerned about what kind of GM will feel comfy applying for our job? "Breaking things up a bit" and "we're a little undermanned here" would make me wonder how much of a GM I would actually be.

I'm glad there's some unrest out there. RF is one of the most respected names in the game, period. He's always been classy and understated. People believed he was doing it the right way and respected him. Nothing wrong with that.

This is going to at least be interesting. Hopefully at least we'll end up with one Captain next year...
 

Lempo

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That's part of it for sure, but before that:

2011: Scheifele: 7th pick
2012: Trouba: 9th pick
2013: Morrisey: 13th pick
2014: Ehlers: 9th pick
2015: Connor: 17th pick

Plus, signing or trading for Buff, Wheeler, Myers, Perreault.

No doubt Laine pushed them over the top, but they had a very strong base built up.

This. Laine may have been the, eh, finishing touch (in at least three different meanings of term), but Jets had awfully lot of things clicking all of the sudden at the same time, from Scheifele becoming a legit 1C with sweet contract to Hellebuyck making himself look like a solution to the chronic goalie woes.

Jets are so stacked that Laine and Ehlers were moved down to the third line not many games back because of lack of being impressive.
 

Vagrant

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there's a lot to evaluate here. the idea that francis was considering resignation immediately following the trade deadline is interesting as it pertains to timing. curious what the friction was there and what side the debate each party represented. did francis want to make a last ditch effort to secure his job and pick up some talent and dundon cooled him off the idea knowing what the year end would bring? can't imagine a guy like francis staying on as a figurehead. if he felt like he was required to go through the motions for public appearances, that's a little insulting. did dundon do the opposite and say go nuts if there's a deal to be made and get frustrated when francis came back empty? it's hard to know. we might not ever know, but it's clear that francis got a not so indirect signal at some point during that process that whatever he was doing/going to do wasn't acceptable. i mentioned in a post a while back that i thought francis was safe because immediately cleaning house would look problematic and i truly believe that was the plan. i think dundon basically would have preferred to make this move at the conclusion of the season, but francis probably wasn't interested in that. when he saw what was coming down the line, francis probably wasn't keen on the idea of keeping up appearances and answering questions as if he were still making the calls. he's a company man, but that's a big ask. no idea what to make of the reassignment as opposed to firing but it's almost surprising to me that ron accepted it.

as far as francis the gm is concerned, this relationship was doomed from the start. karmanos had installed rutherford because rutherford was so.... thrifty that dumpster diving became his forte. he was able to extract a lot of value out of the less attractive free agents or the players who were being improperly utilized elsewhere. francis was a student of this because that's exactly what the owner wanted. risk aversion, limiting payroll, and trying to cobble together a roster that made some sense. this is the style of gm he was because it was the style of gm that karmanos required him to be. that isn't to pass the sins of the previous ownership off on ron, it's just face value apparent that the moves francis made were virtually identical to rutherford's approach with minor adjustments in drafting and development. talent retention being more important than talent acquisition. dundon just dropped $500 million on this team and is ready to drop more. the mark cuban comparisons won't go away and there's probably a little pride in that for him. so right away we have a problem on a fundamental level. a gm that has been so conditioned to take the path of least expense and an owner that wants a fireworks show. there was probably a lot of talk of karmanos having been so hands off the product that it was allowed to stagnate and there's probably a lot of truth to that. it also comes down to francis as a personality. knowing a lot about hockey and room dynamics isn't the entirety of the position. francis was tasked with being the frontman of this bunch and per his personality it was just a terrible fit. francis comes across as painfully thoughtful and authentic, but there's zero showman in him. there's zero pulse. nobody's butt cheeks clenched when he came downstairs, if he ever did. it's hard to recall a time where francis addressed the team after a poor effort. from dundon's experience, that probably looked more like indifference than deference to the staff in place. it's just another stylistic clash. dundon probably spent more time in the hurricanes room these past few months than francis did during his entire tenure. there's an element of me that feels like francis is more of a buddy boss and responsibility for hiring and firing was never really something he should have been required to do. it just didn't fit with his personality and style of leadership. he wanted to install people where he wanted them and then leave it alone. there's just not a lot of accountability in that approach once you recognize that your boss probably isn't going to give you a hard time for virtually anything. as cool as that idea seems, there needs to be a certain amount of fear in the power that comes with this job. francis never wielded that because it's just not in him and there have been times this club has desperately needed another voice to come down on their lackluster half ass play. francis just seemed very removed from it all and that couldn't have sat well with someone that considers themselves a micromanager that wants to be involved in every aspect of the experience. there were some great points made above by tarheel about the things that dundon immediately started doing once he arrived that he likely felt like should have already been in place. most of us have been involved with a leadership change at work and noticing when the new boss is seeing something that you all know you should have been doing before and the panic that sets in because it was never a point of emphasis for the old boss. that's the vibe that seems to be here. the concept of dundon coming in and feeling compelled to start making changes right away seems to suggest a level of dissatisfaction with the status quo and to be frank he has a valid gripe. we all have a valid gripe watching this team suffer from the same deficiencies for ten years and never have them addressed. but francis is such an affable person for the same reasons he was a terrible boss and it bought him a lot of good will with the base. that's not going to cut it for a results oriented boss who has no specific respect for ron outside of what other people have told him. in some ways he has an even clearer vision of ron's success or lack thereof than the average fan for that very reason. there are no emotional ties that want francis to be good at this because we like him so much. he just...... never did anything? when everyone was sort of curious about the duchene situation and the jvr situation and the fact that we had pieces that lined up with the needs of those teams and an absolute surplus of defensive prospects and francis did nothing at all it was such a shock to me. it could have changed the entire season to pick up one more real top six forward, but francis was so loathe to risk it that he just trotted the same group out there again hoping that incremental gains made by improving the goaltending (so he thought) and the development of the defense would be enough to not have to touch the prospects. it was a poor decision to say the absolute least and the value of some of those assets have since suffered depreciation. faulk being the primary one that leaps to mind and fleury to a degree as well. making no decision is still a decision and it was the default decision for francis. it was time for that to change.
 

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